1 John 5:9-14 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.Phoneman777 said:
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This touched me deeply...there are no words, no words at all, to even begin to tell you how much this post means to me.brakelite said:
I only hope I can live up to your faith in me, Brakelite.
I had to leave for awhile, as I was becoming frustrated and angry...two things that a Christian cannot afford if he or she wants to be an effective witness for our Lord and our God.
I am very sorry to say that I very much suspect that these two are unreachable, because they are under that "strong delusion"...one of the most terrifying passages in all of the Bible, imho:
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
This "OSAS" doctrine is such a delusion. Those who love the truth will never be satisfied with taking a handful of verses out of the context of the whole Bible, and basing their eternity on those verses. They will hunger and thirst for the whole truth, and they won't be satisfied until they have wrung every drop from the scriptures that God has preserved for us through time.
Like ATP and Mhealth, I also believe that Jesus Christ will not lose even one of His disciples, but will deliver them all, safe and sound, to that place that He has prepared for them. What we differ on is just who those disciples are.
ATP and Mhealth evidently think that they include anyone who believes in Jesus Christ. All they have to do is make a confession of faith, and, hey, presto...they can commit even the most vile of sins, and, without any remorse, or any intention of repenting, they will receive God's precious gift of eternal life.
But it does not work that way. Christ's disciples are those who love Him and who have surrendered themselves completely to Him. He very plainly says, "if you love Me, keep My commandments"...I can't, for the life of me, see how anyone could possibly think that what He really meant was "if you love Me, go ahead and sin all you want".
This idea that, because He died for our sins, this means that we can go ahead and sin, because, hey...He already PAID for them...well, it just nauseates me. I can only conclude that anyone who could even think such an evil, wicked thing just has never considered what the Grace He offers to us actually cost Him. Dear Lord....that He had to suffer so for me...well it both shames and humbles me. I totally understand the young woman who barged into Simon's house and threw herself at His feet, kissing them and weeping, washing those precious feet with her tears and drying them with her hair. Or the woman who strained to touch just the hem of His garment. Oh, yes...I can definitely understand those ladies...and feign would I join with them, bathing His feet with my own tears, clinging to the hem of His garment...in my heart, I am there.
Anyway, thank you for your love and support, Braklite...and continue to pray for these two, that perhaps one day, the scales will fall from their eyes, and they will be able to see the whole Truth of God.
I would also add that I have a very great admiration for Phoneman, who slogs through this mess day after weary day, never losing his temper, never getting frustrated, always patient, always full of love and hope...
Now, there is a man who is full of good counsel and wise understanding...and the patience of a saint.
He keeps gently chiding, trying hard to reason with the unreasonable...
And he is a major reason why I came back to this forum.
My prayer is that I might be more like Phoneman in days to come...that God will also grant me that sweet, gentle patience...
Now, there is a man who is full of good counsel and wise understanding...and the patience of a saint.
He keeps gently chiding, trying hard to reason with the unreasonable...
And he is a major reason why I came back to this forum.
My prayer is that I might be more like Phoneman in days to come...that God will also grant me that sweet, gentle patience...
Your problem is that you do not believe God. You only believe what makes you feel good.mjrhealth said:
You think that all Abraham did was sit around chanting, "I believe God, I believe God, yes I do, I believe God..."
Not a bit of it.
God had told him to do something...something that even the strongest Christian would balk at.
God had asked him to take his son...the son of promise...and make of him a human sacrifice.
Once again, you have read the words...at least, I hope you have?...but the reality of them has not "sunk in".
Can you even imagine, God wanting you to kill your only child as a sacrifice? What a horrendous burden!
Yet, Abraham "believed God". This meant one heck of a lot more than just knowing that God exists, or even being aware that God loved him.
This meant trusting Him so very much that he was willing to obey Him...even to the point of offering his son...the son God had promised him, the seed in whom "all the families of the earth" would be blessed...taking his beloved child, I say...and killing him, offering him as a burnt offering to God.
I don't know if I have the words to get it across to you...but Lord help me, I'm trying. You read the words...but they mean nothing to you, evidently. It is so easy to roll "Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness" off your tongue...but you do not have the obedient spirit of Abraham in your heart.
What does John say about Abraham's faith?
I think you should read more about Abraham's faith:mjrhealth said:
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
You should know...Abraham, as you said, did not have the Torah...nor did he have the New Testament.
He had no idea what God's plans were.
He simply trusted God, and obeyed Him.
On the contrary. Believing that God can send believers to hell is the delusion. You are following a doctrine straight from the pits of hell. Even God calls you a liar. How do you feel about that Barrd?The Barrd said:
1 John 5:9-14 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
Rev 1:5-6 NIV and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death. How are we victorious? 1 John 5:4-5 NIV tells us......
Rev 2:11 NIV Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.
1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
Rev 3:5 NIV The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
Born again believers will not be a part of the second death. - ATP
Rev 2:11 NIV Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.
1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
Rev 3:5 NIV The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
Born again believers will not be a part of the second death. - ATP
We have very different ideas about what it means to "have the Son".ATP said:
To me, it means following Him, always. It means a changed life, and a changed heart. It means surrendering your own will to His.
It means a heart that is turned toward God. It means an obedient spirit.
It means a great deal more than simply saying "I believe in Jesus".
It certainly does NOT mean that we can do whatever pleases us, and still expect that very precious, and very expensive gift.
Goodness, are you not aware that there are atheists...good, honest people...who do believe in Jesus the man, and even that He was a great man and a great teacher...but who refuse to believe that He might be God? They "have the Son" just as much as you have...perhaps even more, because at least they realize that they ought to be sorry when they have hurt someone.
To you, it looks an awful lot like you think to "have the Son" simply means to acknowledge Him.
I've shown you, time and time again, that there are many, many, many more verses than the ones you keep repeating...and tried to explain to you that you need ALL of these verses if you truly want to "have the Son."
But you will not listen.
And now, you want to tell me that God has called me a liar.
But have you truly believed the testimony that God has given about His Son?
I do not think so...you've left too much of it out. So many, many verses that you simply refuse to acknowledge, let alone deign to consider.
I do not think you are a liar...but I do think you are badly confused.
Although you have posted God's opinion on the matter....
Again, we have very different ideas of what constitutes a born-again believer.ATP said:
I think you know that to be "born again" means receiving the Holy Spirit, right?
Now that means a lot more than just a bunch of pretty church words. The Holy Spirit is very real.
He is the very Spirit of God, Himself.
And what is the job of the Holy Spirit?
I mean, beside sealing the believer?
Bear with me...I am going to post some scripture.
Maybe you will read it, maybe you will not...but it will be here, for you or anyone who is interested, to read...
Hold on, here we go...
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
This seems pretty straight forward to me. I don't understand why some folks think that they can "have the Son" but not obey Him.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Does this sound as if God the Father will call His obedient child a liar?
Uh...not exactly.
Who is a liar but the one who claims to love Him, but will not keep His commandments?
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
This seems pretty straight forward to me. I don't understand why some folks think that they can "have the Son" but not obey Him.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Does this sound as if God the Father will call His obedient child a liar?
Uh...not exactly.
Who is a liar but the one who claims to love Him, but will not keep His commandments?
Oh the irony. Open your eyes Barrd. God is the one calling YOU a liar, because you refuse to accept the testimony of God. The testimony is that God has given us eternal life in his Son. Do you believe this, or do you deny it??The Barrd said:
1 John 5:9-14 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death. How are we victorious? 1 John 5:4-5 NIV tells us......
Rev 2:11 NIV Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.
Rev 3:5 NIV The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
Born again believers will not be a part of the second death. - ATP
Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Did you get that? Jesus says that, if you love Him, you will keep His words, and you will be loved, and the Father and the Son will come and live within you.
Pretty awesome promise, yes?
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Not keeping His word would mean that you do not love Him.
Something to think about.
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Did you get that? Jesus says that, if you love Him, you will keep His words, and you will be loved, and the Father and the Son will come and live within you.
Pretty awesome promise, yes?
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Not keeping His word would mean that you do not love Him.
Something to think about.
So, what, exactly is the job of the Holy Spirit?
Did you catch that, or was Jesus too fast for you, ATP?
Did you catch that, or was Jesus too fast for you, ATP?
Again, we have different ideas about what these verses mean.ATP said:
To "have the Son" means a great deal more than just believing in Him. Devils also believe in Him...and tremble.
What do you think it means, to "be victorious"? Doesn't it sound as if there had been a struggle?
And what do you think it means to be "dressed in white"? Don't you know that white represents purity?
And again, what do you think it means to be "born of God"?
Yes, it is our faith that brings us the victory...nothing that we can do can earn it for us...in that, at least, you are right.
Well, almost.
But don't you realize that real "faith" is more than just words? Real faith is working faith. Real faith is not just saying "I believe in Jesus"...real faith believes every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God...
Abraham had real faith, and it was counted to him as righteousness....
Now, I don't know about you...but I am quite happy that God has never asked me to sacrifice anyone that I love, much less my son.
But Abraham trusted God...
There's a great deal more to believing in Jesus than just acknowledging Him...believing in Him means trusting Him enough to obey Him.
Again, ATP...or Mhealth, either one of you...
What is the job of the Holy Spirit?
Did you catch it as Jesus told you in the verses I posted?
Or was Jesus too quick for you?
You've shown me that you can read....but can you discern what you are reading?
Show me...
What is the job of the Holy Spirit?
Did you catch it as Jesus told you in the verses I posted?
Or was Jesus too quick for you?
You've shown me that you can read....but can you discern what you are reading?
Show me...
Have you noticed that I will answer your posts, especially if they are addressed to me...but you very seldom answer mine?ATP said:
Why do you suppose that is, ATP?
Now, just how did you come up with that?ATP said:Better not slip up then, or you're going straight to hell.
How much of what I've posted here have you actually bothered to read?
I know that I have said that it is faith that saves us, and that there is nothing at all that we can do to earn it...
I'm sure that I have mentioned, at least in passing, the horrible suffering of the Lord on the cross...in fact, I went into heart-rending detail, in the vain hope that maybe you would see the reality of it...smell the blood, hear the screams of the men, hear the weeping of their friends and families...
Yes, ATP, if is Jesus Who saves us, and not we ourselves. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, our Emmanuel.
As far you've gone with it, you're right...Jesus will not lose even one of His beloved disciples. He will bring every one of them safely to that place He is preparing.
What you are missing is just exactly what faith truly IS.
Again, I ask you....do you even bother to read what I post?
I don't think you actually mean to be so rude and condescending...I suspect you honestly think you are "teaching" me something I didn't know.
Let me assure you, it is not as if I haven't heard this OSAS lie before, or been presented with all of that canned scripture you keep repeating. I've been a Christian since 1962, when I was 12 years old.
I'm not perfect, not by a long shot...but I'm not stupid, either....
Now we have to depend on our intelligence to keep us saved? I guess I'm out of luck. I'm dumb as a brick.The Barrd said:
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