Sabbath-Keeping

[Barrd]

I'm concerned for you guys too. You both have made it obvious that you do not believe the Word of God.

I'd be more inclined to believe that if you'd drop the arrogant attitude, and show a bit of love.
For instance, I have not once accused you of not believing God's Word. I have said that you believe a twisted version of it, and that you favor a handful of verses taken out of the rest of the text...but I have never accused you of unbelief.
I don't think I've ever talked down to you...and I'm quite sure Phoneman has not done so.
I know you don't realize it, and I don't think you are doing it on purpose. But consider this, my friend....
Your fruits are showing...and they are not the kind I'd want to serve at my table...

I am asking you, as politely as I know how, to stop and think before you hit the "post" button.
Is this REALLY how you want to represent Christ?

 

[ATP]

I have said that you believe a twisted version of it

Twisted? lol hypocrisy.

 

[ATP]

Barrd, if Jesus Christ died for all sins, how is it possible to lose our salvation. Doesn't that go against everything Jesus accomplished?

 

[ATP]

For the life of me I can't understand why a born again believer can ever think he would lose his salvation. Grace is what saved you and grace will keep you. Otherwise, you all are making a mockery of Jesus death and spitting on his grave.

 

[ATP]

You all should be ashamed of yourselves.
Repent of your filthy works!!
and accept the free gift of salvation, admit that you are a sinner, and believe that God raised Jesus from the dead!

Matt 23:27-28 NIV “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

 

[ATP]

Jesus. I pray that Joyful, Barrd and Phoneman are covered in your precious blood. If they are not, show them the way. Bring them to you and out of religion, and show them what love is. Reveal your grace to them Lord. Amen.

 

[Barrd]

Twisted? lol hypocrisy.

Do you know what hypocrisy is?

 

[Barrd]

Barrd, if Jesus Christ died for all sins, how is it possible to lose our salvation. Doesn't that go against everything Jesus accomplished?

Have you actually thought about what you are saying here?
Jesus Christ...God in the flesh, our Emmanual, gentle, compassionate, innocent...was crucified. I've tried so hard to get across to you what that means, but somehow, I just don't think you get it.
Perhaps being a child when I first read of it might have made a difference...and I had and still have, a very vivid imagination.
Try...try to put yourself there, at Calvary. Try to see the Lord, stretched out on a cruel Roman cross...see the long, cruel spikes, the centurion places a spike so...he lifts his hammer over his head...oh, see that hammer come down! Oh, hear the Lord, as He moans with a pain too great to bear! Already weak from loss of blood...oh, but He feels every hit of that hammer, as it drives that spike...ripping through flesh, tearing through muscle, slicing veins and shredding tendons, smashing through bone...see the blood as it bursts from him in great spouts...oh, you can smell it afresh with each blow! Hear the cries of the people, oh, the women who love Him, weeping...and if there are not tears rolling down your own cheeks every single time you think on this very real sacrifice, there is something seriously wrong with your heart....and it isn't something a cardiologist can help you with.
ATP...Crucifixion is not just a pretty church word. It is a horrible reality. I hate when people just nonchalantly say "He died for our sins" as if it were nothing...an afternoon playing miniature golf, a day at the beach... I cringe when someone says "I am covered in His blood" with an airy wave of the hand, as if that blood were not really real. Perhaps we ought to have to do as the Jews did...slaughter a lamb...an actual living lamb...slaughter it ourselves, I say, and put the blood...the actual blood...around the door to our house. Maybe if we had to do that, we might begin to have a glimmer of what this sacrifice is really all about.
Anyway, Jesus went through all of that for us because that is the punishment we deserve. I wonder if you get that? YOU deserve that punishment, ATP, no less than anyone else. Do you even realize that? ALL have sinned...and ALL includes you, and me, and Phoneman, and Mjrhealth, and every single member of this site...every single person ever born on this or any other planet in God's great creation DESERVES this horrible, horrible punishment, because we have ALL sinned.
To dare to think that He did all of this for you so that you can go on sinning is just despicable. It is spitting on His cross even as He hangs there, the light leaving His eyes...oh, even the very angels weep! To dare to imagine that this payment covers arrogant, outright rebellion against God is...well, there are no words that I know that are strong enough to describe the ugliness of it.

 

[Barrd]

For the life of me I can't understand why a born again believer can ever think he would lose his salvation. Grace is what saved you and grace will keep you. Otherwise, you all are making a mockery of Jesus death and spitting on his grave.

Yes, ATP, Grace is what saves me, and grace is what keeps me...we are in full agreement there.
Where we part company is our very different definition of the term "born again believer". I've tried to explain this to you...I even thought, once or twice, that you were beginning to see what I was trying to show you.
It's a little bit like trying to tell someone who has never tasted cheese what a grilled cheese sandwich tastes like...or explaining to someone who has never been near a rose bush what a rose smells like...or trying to tell someone who has spent their life in a land-locked desert what water feels like as it slides against your skin. It would be easier to make you a grilled cheese sandwich, or give you a rose, or take you out to the lake...
But it is a little harder to give you the Holy Spirit so that you can taste and see that the Lord is good.
ATP...oh, my heart breaks for you! You think you have the truth...but you only have a fraction of it.

 

[Barrd]

You all should be ashamed of yourselves.
Repent of your filthy works!!
and accept the free gift of salvation, admit that you are a sinner, and believe that God raised Jesus from the dead!

Matt 23:27-28 NIV “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

*sigh*...Speaking of irony...
ATP, where do I begin? Yes, we should ALL be ashamed of ourselves...including YOU!
Listen to you telling me to repent! Oh, my dear man, I do that...I do that every day! Listen to you telling me about the gift of salvation! Oh, it breaks my heart...admit that I am a sinner....
Yes, ATP, I am a sinner! Just like you are!
I don't even know why you posted that verse...it has nothing to do with this conversation. But as long as you are of a mind to hear His words, perhaps you'd be interested in hearing the very first words out of His mouth as He began His ministry:
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
And His last words:
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[ATP]

"Does The Barrd believe that believers who do not keep the Lord's commandments will go to hell?"
I believe that the possibility exists, yes.

There is not one scripture in all 66 books that says God throws His children into the lake of fire. Not one. At the end of the day the Word of God triumphs once again. God is not contradictory. This is what you're not understanding, or what you can't seem to grasp in your mind or your heart. God is either for or against something. God is either for security in the believer or against it. If you read through the entire NT, which I have, you will see the language of the NT is based on the security of the believer. There isn't enough room to post every scripture, so let's work with what I have here...

For example,

1. God doesn't say in one scripture that once you believe you have eternal life.
2. Or that there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.
3. Or that neither present nor future can separate us from God.
4. Or that God gives us the gift of salvation.
5. Or that you were sealed until the day of redemption, which is death.
6. Or that Jesus secured our redemption forever by His own blood.
7. Or that we have an inheritance that can never perish spoil or fade.

then says no, wait..in order to obtain these things you must keep my commandments. You see what I'm saying? One of us is taking the commandment scriptures out of context. So could it be, just maybe that if we don't follow the commandments or repent daily, that we lose crowns and rewards in heaven and not our salvation?

For example,

1. God is a liar because believing doesn't bring eternal life.
2. God is a liar because there is still condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.
3. God is a liar because present and future can still separate us from God.
4. God is a liar because salvation isn't a gift.
5. God is a liar because the seal can be broken, and you are not sealed until death.
6. God is a liar because Jesus didn't secure our redemption with His blood after all.
7. God is a liar because our inheritance can perish, spoil and fade.

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Rom 8:1-2 NIV Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:38-39 ESV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 2:8-9 NIV For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Eph 4:30 NIV Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

- ATP

 

[Barrd]

There is so much I want to tell you...but I'm afraid you will not believe me...why should you? You do not know me, I am a stranger on the internet.
*sigh*...
You say you've read the entire New Testament. That's great, it really is.
I was 12 years old when my grandmother gave me, for Christmas, my very first "big girl" Bible...all 66 books in a beautiful white leather cover, with a tiny cross for a zipper pull...the pages were edged with gold and, of course, the words of Christ were written in red. Of course, it was a King James, but that was no problem for me...I'd already read Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream, a favorite of mine, and The Merchant of Venice, another Shakespeare classic, which I also loved. You see, ATP...I was a bit ahead of most kids my age, at least when it came to my ability to read. (Although I sucked at math, and still do.)
Anyway, I took that Bible with me everywhere I went...and I had it read, from cover to cover, by Easter. Oh, I kinda skimmed through Leviticus, Numbers, and Dueteronomy...very boring for a little girl...but other than that, I was fascinated!
And then, I came to the Gospels! Of course, I'd heard many of these stories already...but somehow, they rang truer for me as I read them as a part of the whole Bible...
And I fell in love with the God-Man, Jesus. Oh, I don't mean the way you probably think...I mean He became my HERO!
As a little girl, I did not come to the Bible with any pre-conceived notions...no "doctrines" to prove or disprove...in fact, I'd never heard that word at that time, and wouldn't have been terribly interested if I had. I was lost in the story...for me, that was all that mattered. When I got to the Epistles, I had to look up the word, and I found out that it means "letters"...like the letters I exchanged with my aunt who still lived in Wales...and I understood something that I have since discovered that very few adults understand...each of those letters that Paul wrote were written to a specific church, and not necessarily to the church as a whole.
Of course, I was both fascinated and confused by the Book of Revelation...but then, who isn't?
Anyway, I became a devoted follower of Christ in 1962, the year I turned 12.

Since then, I have read the Bible through many, many, many, many times...(and I still skim through Leviticus, Numbers, and Dueteronomy)

 

[Barrd]

I don't know why, but suddenly every time I post something, I end up with a double post.
Books, I'm good with. Technology...not so much.

 

[Barrd]

Now, I'm not trying to "one up" you here, honest. I'm simply stating facts.
According to your profile, you've been a Christian for about ten years. That's great, it truly is, and welcome to the Family.
I've been here for over 50 years.

I was not taught by any man. I'd never heard of such terms as "church fathers" or "doctrine" or "exegesis" or any such things. I was a little girl, with the open heart and open mind of a child, sitting at the feet of the Lord and His apostles, taking my instruction directly from them.

Now, I'm not perfect...I think I've said that before. But I am pretty darn smart.
I appreciate you trying to teach me what other men have taught you...it is quite kind of you, to try to share with me what you think you "know".
I don't think for a minute that you intend to come off as arrogant or rude...and one of the reasons I have not wanted to reveal this about myself is because do not wish to appear to be arrogant, either.
I mean, if I said that I was a great cook, you probably wouldn't think me arrogant or rude...you might figure that, since I got married right out of high school and I've been at this home making gig ever since, I ought to have learned something...if only how to whip up a great meatloaf...
Or if I said I was a fine seamstress...which isn't strictly true, although my daughter does have this talent...you'd be cool with that.
But me saying that I am more advanced in the scriptures than you...I know that rankles. And I am sorry for that.

 

[Barrd]

...

 

[Barrd]

There is not one scripture in all 66 books that says God throws His children into the lake of fire. Not one. At the end of the day the Word of God triumphs once again. God is not contradictory. This is what you're not understanding, or what you can't seem to grasp in your mind or your heart. God is either for or against something. God is either for security in the believer or against it. If you read through the entire NT, which I have, you will see the language of the NT is based on the security of the believer. There isn't enough room to post every scripture, so let's work with what I have here...

For example,

1. God doesn't say in one scripture that once you believe you have eternal life.
2. Or that there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.
3. Or that neither present nor future can separate us from God.
4. Or that God gives us the gift of salvation.
5. Or that you were sealed until the day of redemption, which is death.
6. Or that Jesus secured our redemption forever by His own blood.
7. Or that we have an inheritance that can never perish spoil or fade.

then says no, wait..in order to obtain these things you must keep my commandments. You see what I'm saying? One of us is taking the commandment scriptures out of context. So could it be, just maybe that if we don't follow the commandments or repent daily, that we lose crowns and rewards in heaven and not our salvation?

For example,

1. God is a liar because believing doesn't bring eternal life.
2. God is a liar because there is still condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.
3. God is a liar because present and future can still separate us from God.
4. God is a liar because salvation isn't a gift.
5. God is a liar because the seal can be broken, and you are not sealed until death.
6. God is a liar because Jesus didn't secure our redemption with His blood after all.
7. God is a liar because our inheritance can perish, spoil and fade.

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Rom 8:1-2 NIV Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:38-39 ESV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 2:8-9 NIV For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Eph 4:30 NIV Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

- ATP

Correct me if I am wrong...but most of what you have, you got from Paul's letters, right?
So, who is Paul?
Let's see:
Paul explodes unto the scene in Acts 7...certain men of Jerusalem had taken a man named Stephen, who was a disciple, and set about to stone him. I'm sure you've read the story. Paul, who was then called "Saul" got a brief mention as the young man who watched over their coats as they did their dirty work.
Turn the page to chapter 8, and we learn a bit more about Saul:

Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Act 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Of course, you know the story of Saul's encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, right? But do you remember why he was headed toward Damascus?

Act 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

But, as we know, Jesus had other ideas.
Of course, at first, the Disciples were reluctant to deal with Paul. And who could blame them? This guy had been directly responsible for a lot of deaths. Jesus went to a man named Ananias, with instructions to go and help Paul. But Ananias was reluctant:

Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name

You probably would have been reluctant, too. I know that I would have.

Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Lots of people tend to gloss over that last bit...Paul is going to suffer. Remember that. He is given a great task...to bring the Light of Christ to the Gentiles...but it is going to be at great personal cost.

 

[Barrd]

So, who was Saul, who would now be known as Paul?

Act 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

He was of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

He was circumcised on the eight day.
Phil 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

He kept the laws of Moses perfectly
Phil. 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

He was born a Roman citizen of the Jewish dispersion.
Acts 22:25-28 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned? When the centurion heard that, he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman. Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea. And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.

Paul’s parents were Roman citizens. They must have had much money as they evidently bought their Roman citizenship.

He was a Pharisee, a son of a Pharisee.
Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
He lived as a Pharisee and kept the law according to the strictest sect of the religion, Hebrew of Hebrews, faultless in legalistic righteousness

In other words, ATP, Paul was a Jewish lawyer, and he wrote in the style of a Jewish lawyer. That is why Peter says that there are things in his letters that are hard to understand, that unstable and unlearned people would wrest to their own destruction.

Now don't get me wrong, Paul was a "chosen vessel", entrusted with a great mission. God often uses the most unlikely tools to work the greatest works...and no one would tell you quicker than Paul, himself, that he did not deserve the honor.

I just think that taking your "doctrine" solely from this lawyer, without considering the words of Christ, Himself is probably not the wisest course a man can take...

 

[Barrd]

That's enough for now...it is 4;30 in the morning here, and I've not gotten much sleep.
I'll check back in later today.
Meantime...God bless!

 

[ATP]

That's enough for now...it is 4;30 in the morning here, and I've not gotten much sleep.
I'll check back in later today.
Meantime...God bless!

You still haven't convinced me. You need to break down those verses for me in post 1931 if you want to convince me.

 

[Barrd]

You still haven't convinced me. You need to break down those verses for me in post 1931 if you want to convince me.

Okay, dear man...let us look at those verses.

Your first verse is easy. It is from John, the Beloved Disciple. I love his writings...he is such a good man, it is no wonder that Jesus loved him so.

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
or from my own beloved King James:
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Once again, you have lifted a verse out of the surrounding context. Do you know what is going on in this passage?
Jesus is about to make some very cryptic remarks here. I remember these verses from that long ago time...as a little girl, the idea of eating Jesus' flesh and drinking His blood was kinda nauseating, but I knew even then what a "simile" was. Jesus, of course, was talking about the last supper, or in Theolese (the language of theologians)...the eucharist.

You want to use it to prove your OSAS doctrine...but does it? Well, not really....just a few verses later, folks who were turned off by this flesh eating and blood drinking simile started WALKING AWAY from Him:

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?


Of course, as I've been saying all along...who are those who believe in Him? Are they not the ones who love Him? Can you say that a man or a woman who believes in Him does not love Him? Doesn't believing in someone also mean having faith in that person? If I say that I had faith in my Dad, doesn't that mean that I love him...and if I love him, won't I do my best to obey him? I don't want him to be disappointed in me!
What does Jesus say...also from the Gospel of John:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Do we really want to examine what might happen to one who does not abide in the Father's love? I think we both know the answer...don't we?