Sabbath-Keeping

[Phoneman777]

Please try to understand that there is a difference between "sin" and "transgression"!

What John says it NOT that sin is synonymous with transgression of the law. He is saying that when someone sins (at the time the law existed!) he is breaking that law.

Why you think that Romans 4:15 or 3:20 supports you is beyond me, but let me poke a huge, gaping hole in your argument:

"before the law was given, sin was in the world." (Rom 5:14)

Hope that my response to you is not too wordy.

"Before the law was given" refers to the time before the law was given to an Israel steeped in Egyptian paganism and was commemorated by Pentecost.

It does NOT mean no law prohibiting the worship of false gods, idolatry, adultery, murder, etc. existed at all in the world, which you so desperately want the verse to teach.

Scripture says "Where there is no law, there is no transgression (of the law)" and "Sin is the transgression of the law" so even you should be able to conclude that "sin" is "the transgression of the law" from these two verses.

Now in light of the above two Scriptures, for you to admit that sin existed before the law was given at Sinai, but then argue that no law existed before Sinai is warping Scripture to a degree not seen since the Pope claimed that Peter is "the rock upon which the church is built".

 

[mjrhealth]

My contention is that the Law of Christ is the Ten Commandments...revised.
Show me where it isn't?

If you say that the Ten Commandments are "done away", then why is it not "OK" to break them?

Man why do so many find it so hard to understand.

If I lived in a country where teh LAW was in force, when eever I broke that Law i Would be condemned, in this case to death for that is what the law does, If you want to die and spend eternity seperated from God than hold onto them all you like.

Now if I lived in a country where the law was Love, which is what Christ has given us, guess what there is no longer any condemnation for the price has already being paid, guess what, love wont do all those things even without the law, and that is why the law if for the sinner, for those without love would have reason to break the law. So those who insist on holding onto the law are sinners and dont have Christ, how can they Christ is Love.

In all His Love

 

[Phoneman777]

Please don't lie Phoneman! My response is that 1) we are no longer under the Old Covenant, and 2) we are now under the law of Christ.

Now I am giving you the same challenge I have given you all along: publicly declare how keeping the law of Christ allows us to worship satan, engage in idolatry, blaspheme God etc.

Hypocrite!!! (no offense of course, bro)

Upp, I'm not lying because in an earlier post you claimed that we don't have to obey the Ten Commandments but we are not allowed to act contrary to them and now you deny it? I speak the truth.

The Law of Christ is "love God" and "love thy neighbor" but you claim that we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments, so it is for YOU to explain how not keeping the 7th commandment demonstrates "love thy neighbor".

 

[Phoneman777]

Thanks my friend! Same to you!

But isn't it frustrating that we have a member of this forum who openly admits that he doesn't even read what we are writing if it is too long for him to bother reading?

What a joke!!!

What's more frustrating is a person who is so self-unaware that he cannot see that no one else here habitually posts novels and expects others to invest precious time reading them.

 

[Phoneman777]

"we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments, but we are not at liberty to act contrary to them"??????

Wow. Okay, then.
There seems to be very little point in continuing to try to reason with someone who is clearly a bubble or two off.
I suppose the only thing left to do is to pray for the poor guy.
Which we should have been doing all along....
Why is that always the Christian's last resort, when we all know it should be the first thing we do?

I have resorted to answering his claims for the benefit of those who might be at risk of being led astray by them.

Wouldn't it be great if everyone loved God enough to purpose in their heart to keep the Ten Commandments? No more broken marriages due to unfaithfulness, no more locks on doors, girls would be safe to walk the streets alone at night, etc. Yet, we shake our heads and wonder why the unchurched doesn't seem to feel a need to keep secular laws when their inspiration comes from the very ones in the church that claim we disregard the Ten Commandment law!

 

[Phoneman777]

Nobody wants to read huge walls of text.
You can say the same thing without droning on and on and on and on about it.
This isn't a church service, and we are not here to listen to you give a sermon.

Not that I don't know an awful lot of pastors who could use an occasional reminder about what happened when Paul preached on till after midnight...

Preach the Word!!!

 

[Barrd]

Man why do so many find it so hard to understand.

If I lived in a country where teh LAW was in force, when eever I broke that Law i Would be condemned, in this case to death for that is what the law does, If you want to die and spend eternity seperated from God than hold onto them all you like.

Now if I lived in a country where the law was Love, which is what Christ has given us, guess what there is no longer any condemnation for the price has already being paid, guess what, love wont do all those things even without the law, and that is why the law if for the sinner, for those without love would have reason to break the law. So those who insist on holding onto the law are sinners and dont have Christ, how can they Christ is Love.

In all His Love

You are confusing the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. A lot of folks seem to have this difficulty. I suspect that it is because they do not actually read their Bibles, depending, instead, on their pastor to tell them what to believe.

Let me enlighten you. The New Covenant...that is the Covenant that we who are Christians are under today, was prophecied long ago. God, through the mouth of His prophet, told the people what this New Covenant would entail.
There really is no excuse for our not knowing, because He made sure that this information made it into our Bibles. So we do have it.
All we have to do is read it.

The New Covenant
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Notice that this New Covenant was to be made with the House of Israel. Do you reject the Ten Commandments because they were given to Israel? Do you not know that you have been grafted in to Israel? Christians are the New Israel, my friend. Those Commandments came along with the package.

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Did you think that you would not be "under the law" in this New Covenant? Far from it. The law will become a part of your very being.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

That last bit is of ultimate importance. Let me repeat if for you.

I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

And there it is. Forgiveness for our iniquity...forgetfulness for our sin.
Grace.

Now, this grace didn't come cheap. It cost a great deal, I'm sure you know that.
Hiding behind it in an attempt to abolish God's Holy Law is just reprehensible, given that He died because we cannot keep that law. Let us not trample the Blood of our Savior under our feet, then.
Let us, instead, stumble along the path that leads to life...doing our level best to keep the Holy Law of God...

 

[CherubRam]

The first Christian converts were Sabbath keepers who attended the congregations with the Jews, ON THE SABBATH. We are the "Grafted Branch" into the New Covenant with Israel. The New Covenant was offered first to the Jews, then later to the Gentiles. Christ said that the Sabbath was made for Mankind, he did not say the Sabbath was made for the Jews. Sunday has nothing to do with Christ resurrection. Christ resurrection came the day after Sunday. Our scriptures that we read are not always translated correctly. The five things that were added by the Catholics is, trinitarianism, Hell, Catholic authority, Messiah worship, and Sunday Sabbath.

 

[Barrd]

Upp, I'm not lying because in an earlier post you claimed that we don't have to obey the Ten Commandments but we are not allowed to act contrary to them and now you deny it? I speak the truth.

The Law of Christ is "love God" and "love thy neighbor" but you claim that we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments, so it is for YOU to explain how not keeping the 7th commandment demonstrates "love thy neighbor".

My friend the Phoneman makes a very good point, here.
The law of Christ is to "love God" and "love thy neighbor".
When we love God, we do not worship any other God, we do not make idols to worship, we do not use His name as a curse word, and we have respect for the day He set apart and sanctified from the beginning of time.
When we love our neighbor, we will give him or her the privilege of a day free from labor, we have respect for our parents, caring for them in their old age, we certainly do not kill our neighbor, or steal from him, or commit adultery with his wife (or her husband), we do not spread vicious gossip about him...and we don't mope about, longing for his possessions, and not appreciating what God has given to us.

That fourth command is pretty cool...giving us the opportunity to show our love for God and our love for our fellow man at the same time. Neat.

 

[mjrhealth]

Lest make it simple,

no one has said the law has being done away with. Now the law under the old covenant given to Israel, only, was enforced and only brought death,the law of Love under Christ chooses not to do those things that the law spoke of. Now this is where the devil gets so many on that path to destruction, just one small detail takes one from love to the law.

If one is in Christ and one walks in love than one will love ones brother and guess what uphold the law without being condemend if one breaks it. Love allows for human frailty.
If one chooses to live by the law, one chooses to strive to keep the law, than one is no longer under grace, so now you have condemend yourself by the law,Why, because now it by your works that you try to keep the law, no longer is it grace you are walking under and so you have rejected the works of Jesus. And guess what you break one you break them all and there is only one payment, "blood". Thats why it says where the law is there is no more grace, it is a slap in the face of Jesus, So many do it and think its fun, not knowing they are leading them selves to destruction.

Jesus will not help anyone keep the law for if He did He would be undoing His own works.

In all His Love

 

[Barrd]

Lots of people would like to believe that God's law is no longer in force.
We see it all over the place today.
Very recently, the US Supreme Court declared that same sex marriage is legal in all fifty states in the United States...however, great numbers of the gay community had already broken from mainstream Christianity and formed their own Metropolitan churches...and several denominations, seeing which way the wind was blowing, decided to ordain gay preachers.
This controversy over the Sabbath may seem like a small thing, given the great apostasy that is going on in the world right now...

But people are being imprisoned, tortured, and killed for following Jesus. It's happening now. Nations that were traditionally bastions of Christianity, like Great Britain, are no longer the strong Christian nations they once were...and sadly, that includes my own beloved Land of the Free and Home of the Brave.

Now, more than ever before, we need to truly lay hold of the faith once entrusted to us, and not let go of a single jot nor tittle of it.

But, I fear it is too late.
When Christ returns, will He find faith in the world?

I wonder.....

 

[Barrd]

Lest make it simple,

no one has said the law has being done away with. Now the law under the old covenant given to Israel, only, was enforced and only brought death,the law of Love under Christ chooses not to do those things that the law spoke of. Now this is where the devil gets so many on that path to destruction, just one small detail takes one from love to the law.

If one is in Christ and one walks in love than one will love ones brother and guess what uphold the law without being condemend if one breaks it. Love allows for human frailty.
If one chooses to live by the law, one chooses to strive to keep the law, than one is no longer under grace, so now you have condemend yourself by the law,Why, because now it by your works that you try to keep the law, no longer is it grace you are walking under and so you have rejected the works of Jesus. And guess what you break one you break them all and there is only one payment, "blood". Thats why it says where the law is there is no more grace, it is a slap in the face of Jesus, So many do it and think its fun, not knowing they are leading them selves to destruction.

Jesus will not help anyone keep the law for if He did He would be undoing His own works.

In all His Love

As I said before, I've not seen such twisting since my last high school dance.

First of all, Christianity is the New Israel...we are grafted in to the root which is Israel...and the Ten Commandments come with the package.
Secondly, the New Covenant, which we are now under, still includes those precious commandments.
So what is different under this Covenant?
A couple of things. One, God's laws are made an integral part of us...written on our very hearts. Which could be why some people contend so fiercely for them. Perhaps those who do not feel this tugging at their heart strings truly have not received Christ...but that is another thread for another day.
But most importantly, this New Covenant is a Covenant of Grace. There is forgiveness for our iniquities. God has promised that He will not remember our sin.

Now, this doesn't mean that the law has been "done away". It does mean that the penalty for breaking these laws has been done away...and why? Because Jesus Christ, Whom you say will not help us to keep His laws, and shame on you...died in our place.
He didn't die in order give us carte blanche to sin all we like...He died because we are unable to live up to His perfection, no matter how hard we try.

But why do you say that Jesus will not help us to live as Christians ought? Did Jesus keep the law? Of course, He did. Is He not working within every Christian, making that Christian new? Well, yes, He is. Does He not strengthen us when we ask? Yes, yes, yes!

To say that Jesus will not help a penitent believer who is working hard to follow His law is to malign the character of Christ.

And again, shame on you.

 

[Barrd]

The first Christian converts were Sabbath keepers who attended the congregations with the Jews, ON THE SABBATH. We are the "Grafted Branch" into the New Covenant with Israel. The New Covenant was offered first to the Jews, then later to the Gentiles. Christ said that the Sabbath was made for Mankind, he did not say the Sabbath was made for the Jews. Sunday has nothing to do with Christ resurrection. Christ resurrection came the day after Sunday. Our scriptures that we read are not always translated correctly. The five things that were added by the Catholics is, trinitarianism, Hell, Catholic authority, Messiah worship, and Sunday Sabbath.

Hmmm....
How was "trinitarianism" added by the Catholics?
Or hell?
Or Messiah worship?

I'd be interested in reading your response.

 

[CherubRam]

Hmmm....
How was "trinitarianism" added by the Catholics?
Or hell?
Or Messiah worship?

I'd be interested in reading your response.

1 Timothy 3:16 Holman bible foot note. Other mss read God
1 Timothy 3:16 NIV foot note. Some manuscripts God

1 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He(a) appeared in a body,(b)
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

Footnotes:
a. 1 Timothy 3:16 Some manuscripts God
b. 1 Timothy 3:16 Or in the flesh


1 John 3:16 In this we have known the charity of God, because he hath laid down his life for us:...

The words (of God) are not in the original text of 1 John 3:16, but have been added.

NIV 1 John 5
6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[See a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

NIV Footnotes:
a.1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

KJV 1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. 7And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

1 John 5:7 implicitly states that all THREE are ONE.

This is the only verse in the Bible that explicitly states that all three persons are one.
Unfortunately, it was added to that verse.
No earlier version includes that last phrase about them being one.

The first 2 additions of Erasmus' master Greek text did not have this.
Stunica (a Catholic authority) demanded that he include the phrase.
Erasmus told Stunica that if he could provide one Greek manuscript with that phrase, he would include it.
But no Greek manuscripts up to that time had it.
Only Latin manuscripts had it. So Stunica had a Greek manuscript made up from the Latin and forced Erasmus to include it.

In 1514, before Erasmus had even begun to edit his text, but its publication was delayed until 1522, until permission of Pope Leo X had finally been obtained for it.

"The supreme Pontiff Leo X, Our Most Holy Father in Christ and Lord, desiring to favour this undertaking, sent from the apostolic library."
This is only a small sample of the many corruptions entered by the Catholics. The Judaizing Christians who had the original letters were killed by the Catholics, and the Catholics also burned the original scriptures, they then replaced them with their own versions.
This claim seems to have been accepted by all at that time.
In view of its inclusion in the Clementine edition of the Latin Vulgate (1592), in 1897 the Holy Office in Rome, a high ecclesiastical congregation, made an authoritative pronouncement, approved and confirmed by Pope Leo XIII, that it is not safe to deny that this verse is an authentic part of St. John's Epistle."

 

[CherubRam]

this word editor is junk.

 

[Barrd]

1 Timothy 3:16 Holman bible foot note. Other mss read God
1 Timothy 3:16 NIV foot note. Some manuscripts God

1 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He(a) appeared in a body,( B)
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

Footnotes:
a. 1 Timothy 3:16 Some manuscripts God
b. 1 Timothy 3:16 Or in the flesh


1 John 3:16 In this we have known the charity of God, because he hath laid down his life for us:...

The words (of God) are not in the original text of 1 John 3:16, but have been added.

NIV 1 John 5
6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[See a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

NIV Footnotes:
a.1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

KJV 1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. 7And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

1 John 5:7 implicitly states that all THREE are ONE.

This is the only verse in the Bible that explicitly states that all three persons are one.
Unfortunately, it was added to that verse.
No earlier version includes that last phrase about them being one.

The first 2 additions of Erasmus' master Greek text did not have this.
Stunica (a Catholic authority) demanded that he include the phrase.
Erasmus told Stunica that if he could provide one Greek manuscript with that phrase, he would include it.
But no Greek manuscripts up to that time had it.
Only Latin manuscripts had it. So Stunica had a Greek manuscript made up from the Latin and forced Erasmus to include it.

In 1514, before Erasmus had even begun to edit his text, but its publication was delayed until 1522, until permission of Pope Leo X had finally been obtained for it.

"The supreme Pontiff Leo X, Our Most Holy Father in Christ and Lord, desiring to favour this undertaking, sent from the apostolic library."
This is only a small sample of the many corruptions entered by the Catholics. The Judaizing Christians who had the original letters were killed by the Catholics, and the Catholics also burned the original scriptures, they then replaced them with their own versions.
This claim seems to have been accepted by all at that time.
In view of its inclusion in the Clementine edition of the Latin Vulgate (1592), in 1897 the Holy Office in Rome, a high ecclesiastical congregation, made an authoritative pronouncement, approved and confirmed by Pope Leo XIII, that it is not safe to deny that this verse is an authentic part of St. John's Epistle."

I'm not really very familiar with other translations than the King James. That's the Bible my grandmother gave me when I was twelve, and it's been a Lamp unto my feet, and a Light unto my path ever since...I'm nearly 65 now, so that would be 52 years. It's not that have anything against any other translations...it is just that this is the one I know and love.

 

[Barrd]

1 Timothy 3:16 Holman bible foot note. Other mss read God
1 Timothy 3:16 NIV foot note. Some manuscripts God

1 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He(a) appeared in a body,( B)
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

Footnotes:
a. 1 Timothy 3:16 Some manuscripts God
b. 1 Timothy 3:16 Or in the flesh


1 John 3:16 In this we have known the charity of God, because he hath laid down his life for us:...

The words (of God) are not in the original text of 1 John 3:16, but have been added.

NIV 1 John 5
6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[See a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

NIV Footnotes:
a.1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

KJV 1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. 7And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

1 John 5:7 implicitly states that all THREE are ONE.

This is the only verse in the Bible that explicitly states that all three persons are one.
Unfortunately, it was added to that verse.
No earlier version includes that last phrase about them being one.

The first 2 additions of Erasmus' master Greek text did not have this.
Stunica (a Catholic authority) demanded that he include the phrase.
Erasmus told Stunica that if he could provide one Greek manuscript with that phrase, he would include it.
But no Greek manuscripts up to that time had it.
Only Latin manuscripts had it. So Stunica had a Greek manuscript made up from the Latin and forced Erasmus to include it.

In 1514, before Erasmus had even begun to edit his text, but its publication was delayed until 1522, until permission of Pope Leo X had finally been obtained for it.

"The supreme Pontiff Leo X, Our Most Holy Father in Christ and Lord, desiring to favour this undertaking, sent from the apostolic library."
This is only a small sample of the many corruptions entered by the Catholics. The Judaizing Christians who had the original letters were killed by the Catholics, and the Catholics also burned the original scriptures, they then replaced them with their own versions.
This claim seems to have been accepted by all at that time.
In view of its inclusion in the Clementine edition of the Latin Vulgate (1592), in 1897 the Holy Office in Rome, a high ecclesiastical congregation, made an authoritative pronouncement, approved and confirmed by Pope Leo XIII, that it is not safe to deny that this verse is an authentic part of St. John's Epistle."

If, as you say, the Catholics changed the original meaning of the text, then why did God allow this?
Surely, God would not allow error piled upon error to be preserved through the ages, to where now, in the 21st century, it is taken for truth?
If He is that weak, perhaps we don't need to be worshiping Him at all...

 

[mjrhealth]

But why do you say that Jesus will not help us to live as Christians ought? Did Jesus keep the law? Of course, He did. Is He not working within every Christian, making that Christian new? Well, yes, He is. Does He not strengthen us when we ask? Yes, yes, yes!

To say that Jesus will not help a penitent believer who is working hard to follow His law is to malign the character of Christ.

I never said that, that is twisting words, I sadi He would not help us keept the law, We either are under the law or grace, the law made for the perfetct man grace for us imperfect people. No one except he the SDA's go on spruking this, oh but than you go and break them" if that was so we would not have Love

Now, this doesn't mean that the law has been "done away". It does mean that the penalty for breaking these laws has been done away...and why? Because Jesus Christ, Whom you say will not help us to keep His laws, and shame on you...died in our place.
He didn't die in order give us carte blanche to sin all we like...He died because we are unable to live up to His perfection, no matter how hard we try.

Cool we all agree.

Now waht dont you understand, we cant earn our righteousness by the law, even teh SDa's agreee on that, now Christ fullfilled teh law, if He was to help us eran our righteousness by the law, guess what, the whole point of His death becmes a wasted effort. Yes Christ wil hep us be out best, but He is not about to undo all Hi good works so we can stand and proudly boast" I earned by rightrouness by teh law. look at me".

In all His Love

 

[mjrhealth]

If christians knew Christ this whole wasted topic would be just that.

So many know the bible so few know Christ.

In all His Love

 

[CherubRam]

If, as you say, the Catholics changed the original meaning of the text, then why did God allow this?
Surely, God would not allow error piled upon error to be preserved through the ages, to where now, in the 21st century, it is taken for truth?
If He is that weak, perhaps we don't need to be worshiping Him at all...

If, as you say, the Catholics changed the original meaning of the text, then why did God allow this?
Surely, God would not allow error piled upon error to be preserved through the ages, to where now, in the 21st century, it is taken for truth?
If He is that weak, perhaps we don't need to be worshiping Him at all...

Answer:
To fulfill prophecy. Scriptures will be restored / Rev 10.
Daniel 7:25
He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. (Change Sabbath and time of holy days)

Daniel 8:12
Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground. (Scriptural truth)

2 Timothy 4:4
They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

2 Peter 2:2
Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.