Sabbath

Axehead · Jan 9, 2013

Raeneske said:
Your scriptures tell you why God rested. Because God finished from His work. Therefore God rested, and set that day apart for holy use. Jesus also reveals why the Sabbath was made:

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

There is also no record where God did not give the command not to take the Lord's name in vain, or not to murder. This is not sufficient evidence to believe none of the 10 Commandments existed.

Whoa now!! Before you go off on a tangent. Where is evidence that anyone kept the Sabbath before Moses? We are children of Abraham by faith, not Moses.

Raeneske said:
There is also other commandments which showed that for breaking it you are condemned to death.

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Do we kill people for committing adultery now? Or when a son or daughter dishounours their parents? No, Jesus abolished the condemnation of immediate death for the breaking of God's law. Therefore, you are not condemned to immediate death, but have a lifetime to repent for breaking the Sababth Commandment, much like any other commandment. So, is this to say we are not punished for committing adultery, or not for dishounouring our parents. Those who do not repent shall be punished.

The 10 Commandments have not passed away. Not one jot or tittle has changed. So, why does the earth think it's been changed?

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The only reason this power THINKS to change the law of God, is because they cannot. No one can, no matter what words they use, it will never change the law of God.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham was found obeying the commandments. The Sabbath was purposely classed with the Moral law, the 10 commandments.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Sabbath is mentioned 59 times in the NT. Never is sacredness detached from it. Sunday keeping is mentioned 8 times in it. Never is sacredness attached to it.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

You have failed to prove that anyone kept the Sabbath before Moses. The Sabbath was a non-issue before Moses, Rae. No one died as a result of profaning the Sabbath before Moses because it was not a law given to men. If it was so important for men before the Law why didn't God mention it and why don't we see any mention of men before Moses keeping it? It's just not there, Rae.

I am beginning to see how you infer your beliefs (eisegesis) into the scriptures now on multiple topics. You take great liberty in doing that and it is very troubling and shows a lack of respect for the Scriptures.

Without any conjecture or inference or eisegesis, show me where anyone kept the Sabbath before Moses. And show me where God instructed anyone to keep it.

Thegoodground · Jan 9, 2013

John_8:32 said:
Doesn't take a thread, There is nowhere that this verse is equated to a year...

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

There is a period of time, either a literal half an hour or a short period of time of silence when those present contemplate what is about to be unleashed on the earth during the seven trumpets. Where in the world do you get a year here? Do you inject your own thinking into everything you read or just make this stuff up?

Did I miss interpret what you had written?

Quote:

The Day of the Lord is not a day of the week, it is the one year period just prior to Christ's return.

End Quote

Then you proceeded to say it began with Rev 8:1.

I believe your inference on Rev 8:1 has absolutely nothing to do with "The day of the Lord" or its beginning.

Do you understand the context to Rev 8?

Can you please explain.

Axehead said:
Whoa now!! Before you go off on a tangent. Where is evidence that anyone kept the Sabbath before Moses? We are children of Abraham by faith, not Moses.

Good question.

Is Rae a child of Moses? Her beliefs would suggest so...

Raeneske · Jan 9, 2013

Whoa now!! Before you go off on a tangent. Where is evidence that anyone kept the Sabbath before Moses? We are children of Abraham by faith, not Moses.

You have failed to prove that anyone kept the Sabbath before Moses. The Sabbath was a non-issue before Moses, Rae. No one died as a result of profaning the Sabbath before Moses because it was not a law given to men. If it was so important for men before the Law why didn't God mention it and why don't we see any mention of men before Moses keeping it? It's just not there, Rae.

I am beginning to see how you infer your beliefs (eisegesis) into the scriptures now on multiple topics. You take great liberty in doing that and it is very troubling and shows a lack of respect for the Scriptures.

Without any conjecture or inference or eisegesis, show me where anyone kept the Sabbath before Moses. And show me where God instructed anyone to keep it.

Abraham was found keeping God's Commandments. If you are looking for the explicit "Do this, do that", you will not find it. That however is no proof it did not exist. Where did God command men not to take the Lord's name in vain? Yet we know that would have been sin, and a breaking of God's Law.

God's Commandments are eternal, holy angels are found keeping the Commandments of God.

Psalm 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

I cannot specifically say to here, "Here, ____ specifically observed the Sabbath". If you are looking for that, you won't find it. But I can tell you that Abraham was found keeping the Commandments of God.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

I cannot give you specifics. Of course it was important, that arguement cannot fly. That's like asking if taking the Lord's name in vain is so bad, why isn't it mentioned before the 10 Commandments. Just because we don't find everything neatly compacted, and everything wasn't explicitly stated, that does not mean it's validity never existed. It's quite the contrary. The Law of God existed, as did the Sabbath. I know because the law of God is eternal, it shall exist throughout ceaseless ages.

Thegoodground · Jan 9, 2013

Raeneske said:
Abraham was found keeping God's Commandments. If you are looking for the explicit "Do this, do that", you will not find it. That however is no proof it did not exist. Where did God command men not to take the Lord's name in vain? Yet we know that would have been sin, and a breaking of God's Law.

God's Commandments are eternal, holy angels are found keeping the Commandments of God.

Psalm 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

I cannot specifically say to here, "Here, ____ specifically observed the Sabbath". If you are looking for that, you won't find it. But I can tell you that Abraham was found keeping the Commandments of God.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

I cannot give you specifics. Of course it was important, that arguement cannot fly. That's like asking if taking the Lord's name in vain is so bad, why isn't it mentioned before the 10 Commandments. Just because we don't find everything neatly compacted, and everything wasn't explicitly stated, that does not mean it's validity never existed. It's quite the contrary. The Law of God existed, as did the Sabbath. I know because the law of God is eternal, it shall exist throughout ceaseless ages.

Rae, it would be preferable to simply say "I cannot, the Word of God is silent on such matters". Owning this would be the beginning of wisdom, as you would be directed to ask the question..."Why is the Word silent on something "you" say is so essential.

Lets take your reasoning and reverse it shall we?

You say Abraham obeyed the Sabbath commandment, yes? Would you also state here that Abraham kept all the commandments found in the Mosiac Law? Every single one of the them...down to how one should go to the toilet?

TGG

Raeneske · Jan 9, 2013

Rae, it would be preferable to simply say "I cannot, the Word of God is silent on such matters". Owning this would be the beginning of wisdom, as you would be directed to ask the question..."Why is the Word silent on something "you" say is so essential.

Lets take your reasoning and reverse it shall we?

You say Abraham obeyed the Sabbath commandment, yes? Would you also state here that Abraham kept all the commandments found in the Mosiac Law? Every single one of the them...down to how one should go to the toilet?

TGG

The Word of God does not explicitly state what you are desiring to see.

The Mosaic Law and the 10 Commandments are not the same thing.

Axehead · Jan 9, 2013

Raeneske said:
Abraham was found keeping God's Commandments. If you are looking for the explicit "Do this, do that", you will not find it. That however is no proof it did not exist. Where did God command men not to take the Lord's name in vain? Yet we know that would have been sin, and a breaking of God's Law.

God's Commandments are eternal, holy angels are found keeping the Commandments of God.

Psalm 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

I cannot specifically say to here, "Here, ____ specifically observed the Sabbath". If you are looking for that, you won't find it. But I can tell you that Abraham was found keeping the Commandments of God.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

I cannot give you specifics. Of course it was important, that arguement cannot fly. That's like asking if taking the Lord's name in vain is so bad, why isn't it mentioned before the 10 Commandments. Just because we don't find everything neatly compacted, and everything wasn't explicitly stated, that does not mean it's validity never existed. It's quite the contrary. The Law of God existed, as did the Sabbath. I know because the law of God is eternal, it shall exist throughout ceaseless ages.

You are being stubborn, Rae. You will protect your Sabbath theology at all costs. You keep telling us how important the Sabbath is and yet why would there not be any mention from God to men that He expects them to keep it, (before Moses, that is)?

You have built a theology on inference and now you dance around your assumptions with other inferences. You are propagating false teaching, Rae and just like the Judaizers of old your teaching will only bring others into bondage.

In Nehemiah 9:13 we have an interesting statement about the Sabbath.

Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:

Now verse 14 is the key: Look at this very closely.

Neh 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

What did Moses do?

When he came down on mount Sinai, he made known unto them the Holy Sabbath. Meaning they did not know about it before Moses knew about it.

So the Word of God tells us that this is when God made known unto the Children of Israel, the Jews, His Holy Sabbath. No one from Adam knew about the Sabbath or were ever commanded to observe it. How could they observe what they never knew about? And that is why we never see a record of Sabbath keeping before Moses.

God did not make known to them just one Sabbath. He made known to them many Sabbaths. And yet, most of the people today just keep one Sabbath, one weekly Sabbath.

Axehead

Raeneske · Jan 10, 2013

Axehead said:
You are being stubborn, Rae. You will protect your Sabbath theology at all costs. You keep telling us how important the Sabbath is and yet why would there not be any mention from God to men that He expects them to keep it, (before Moses, that is)?

You have built a theology on inference and now you dance around your assumptions with other inferences. You are propagating false teaching, Rae and just like the Judaizers of old your teaching will only bring others into bondage. <img src='http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/images/smilies8/smilies-34791.png' alt='Posted Image' class='bbc_img' />

In Nehemiah 9:13 we have an interesting statement about the Sabbath.

Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:

Now verse 14 is the key: Look at this very closely.

Neh 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

What did Moses do?

When he came down on mount Sinai, he made known unto them the Holy Sabbath. Meaning they did not know about it before Moses knew about it.

So the Word of God tells us that this is when God made known unto the Children of Israel, the Jews, His Holy Sabbath. No one from Adam knew about the Sabbath or were ever commanded to observe it. How could they observe what they never knew about? And that is why we never see a record of Sabbath keeping before Moses.

God did not make known to them just one Sabbath. He made known to them many Sabbaths. And yet, most of the people today just keep one Sabbath, one weekly Sabbath.

Axehead

That states that at mount Sinai that they were made known of the Sabbath. Yet Israel kept the Sabbath in Chapter 16 of Exodus, which was before the Mount. So, that is not saying what you think it's saying.

Because you won't find everything like that explicitly stated. That is not how everything in scripture is found.

Axehead · Jan 10, 2013

Raeneske said:
That states that at mount Sinai that they were made known of the Sabbath. Yet Israel kept the Sabbath in Chapter 16 of Exodus, which was before the Mount. So, that is not saying what you think it's saying.

Because you won't find everything like that explicitly stated. That is not how everything in scripture is found.

Ex 16:4-5 – Then the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not. 5 And it shall be on the sixth day that they shall prepare what they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily."

Ex 16:27-30 – Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

These verses clearly show that the Israelites had NOT been keeping the Sabbath previously; for if they had, they would have ALREADY BEEN PROVEN. Also when the LORD introduced the Sabbath he said: See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." (Ex. 16:29). This only proves the children of Israel were NOT acquainted with keeping the Sabbath because the LORD, through Moses, had to instruct them in how they were to keep it.

Ex 16:25-26 – Then Moses said, "Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none." This shows the Sabbath was being introduced for the FIRST TIME – here in the wilderness in the region of Sinai. Also see Neh 9:13-14 – "You came down also on Mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them just ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments. 14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, and commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, by the hand of Moses Your servant." The children of Israel did NOT KNOW the "holy Sabbath" before the Lord "came down on Mount Sinai."

The Sabbatarian/Adventist will quote Exodus 16:28 ("How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?") as an indication that the Ten Commandments had been in force for a long time. However, the text says the Lord had already told them NOT to gather on the Sabbath day and some did it any way. When the Lord asked, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?" he wanted to know HOW MUCH LONGER the children of Israel were going to break his commandments and laws before they got the message. Once was too much.

Raeneske · Jan 10, 2013

Axehead said:
Ex 16:4-5 – Then the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not. 5 And it shall be on the sixth day that they shall prepare what they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily."

Ex 16:27-30 – Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

These verses clearly show that the Israelites had NOT been keeping the Sabbath previously; for if they had, they would have ALREADY BEEN PROVEN. Also when the LORD introduced the Sabbath he said: See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." (Ex. 16:29). This only proves the children of Israel were NOT acquainted with keeping the Sabbath because the LORD, through Moses, had to instruct them in how they were to keep it.

Ex 16:25-26 – Then Moses said, "Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none." This shows the Sabbath was being introduced for the FIRST TIME – here in the wilderness in the region of Sinai. Also see Neh 9:13-14 – "You came down also on Mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them just ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments. 14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, and commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, by the hand of Moses Your servant." The children of Israel did NOT KNOW the "holy Sabbath" before the Lord "came down on Mount Sinai."

The Sabbatarian/Adventist will quote Exodus 16:28 ("How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?") as an indication that the Ten Commandments had been in force for a long time. However, the text says the Lord had already told them NOT to gather on the Sabbath day and some did it any way. When the Lord asked, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?" he wanted to know HOW MUCH LONGER the children of Israel were going to break his commandments and laws before they got the message. Once was too much.

I understand what is shown, Israel had to be taught to keep the Sabbath. I cannot deny that, it is a fact. Moses showed them the Sabbath. What that does not prove, however, is that the 10 Commadments did not exist beforehand, including the Sabbath Commandment.

We see the Sabbath Commandment itself directly and explicitly stated in Exodus 16 before the 10 Commandments are written in stone. We also find God resting, and setting apart the day for Holy use in Genesis.

You will not find the explicit statement you so desire, but I have already told you, you shall not find it. If that's the way you want to do it, I cannot do that for you.

If you are doubting the eternal reality of the 4th Commandment, you must show me each and every single commadment explicitly stated before Moses. If you cannot do that, then you have no reason to ask me for the 4th Commandment either.

Axehead · Jan 10, 2013

Raeneske said:
I understand what is shown, Israel had to be taught to keep the Sabbath. I cannot deny that, it is a fact. Moses showed them the Sabbath. What that does not prove, however, is that the 10 Commadments did not exist beforehand, including the Sabbath Commandment.

We see the Sabbath Commandment itself directly and explicitly stated in Exodus 16 before the 10 Commandments are written in stone. We also find God resting, and setting apart the day for Holy use in Genesis.

You will not find the explicit statement you so desire, but I have already told you, you shall not find it. If that's the way you want to do it, I cannot do that for you.

If you are doubting the eternal reality of the 4th Commandment, you must show me each and every single commadment explicitly stated before Moses. If you cannot do that, then you have no reason to ask me for the 4th Commandment either.

Ahh, but I have shown you an explicit statement of when Israel was shown and taught the Sabbath, please don't ignore it.

Neh_9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:

Now verse 14 is the key: Look at this very closely.

Neh_9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Moses made known to them the holy sabbath. Moses never knew about it until God gave it to him on Mt. Sinai and the Hebrew children never knew about it until Moses communicated what he had learned from God, to the Hebrew children.

Also, Exodus_31:12-16
And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant."
We are told the Sabbath was a "perpetual covenant." But notice that Exo_31:13-16 says God told the children of Israel to keep the Sabbath "throughout their generations." This very expression proves the commandment to be temporary – that it would pass away. In fact, it is a shadow that finds it's fulfillment in Christ as our Sabbath.

Eph_2:14 For he is our peace...
Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Do we ever read of the other nine commandments spoken of in this manner? Where did God say, "You shall not murder throughout your generations"? Or, "You shall not commit adultery throughout your generations"? Where did God say, "You shall not covet, steal, bear false witness, and so on, throughout your generations"?

The ONLY law that would be limited to THEIR GENERATIONS was the Sabbath – "keep the Sabbath… observe the Sabbath throughout your generations."

Throughout Your Generations – Everlasting Ordinance

In addition to the SABBATH, notice what God told the children of Israel must be kept "throughout your generations" as an "everlasting ordinance."

1. The Passover / Feast of Unleavened Bread (Exodus_12:14-20, 17)
2. Burnt Offerings (Exodus_29:42)
3. Burning Incense (Exodus_30:8-10)
4. Pentecost (Leviticus_23:15-21)

Obviously, throughout your generations does not mean everlasting as in shall never stop. I think you tried to make this point to me in the "Hell is Eternal" thread. In this context it is certainly limited.

We know that observing the Passover Feast is not a requirement, or observing Burnt Offerings, Burning Incense or Pentecost. Well, observing the Sabbath is in the same category - only to be observed throughout their generations.

And the NEW MAN in Christ is neither Jew nor Gentile so he/she is not even a part of those "generations". The New Man follows a new law. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Why be free from the law, what is wrong with the law?
Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The Law could not do what the Spirit can do.

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Raeneske · Jan 10, 2013

Axehead said:
Ahh, but I have shown you an explicit statement of when Israel was shown and taught the Sabbath, please don't ignore it.

<a href='http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Neh%209.13'>Neh_9:13</a> Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:

Now verse 14 is the key: Look at this very closely.

<a href='http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Neh%209.14'>Neh_9:14</a> And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Moses made known to them the holy sabbath. Moses never knew about it until God gave it to him on Mt. Sinai and the Hebrew children never knew about it until Moses communicated what he had learned from God, to the Hebrew children.

Also, Exodus_31:12-16 
And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant."
We are told the Sabbath was a "perpetual covenant." But notice that Exo_31:13-16 says God told the children of Israel to keep the Sabbath "throughout their generations." This very expression proves the commandment to be temporary – that it would pass away. In fact, it is a shadow that finds it's fulfillment in Christ as our Sabbath. 

Eph_2:14 For he is our peace...
Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 

Do we ever read of the other nine commandments spoken of in this manner? Where did God say, "You shall not murder throughout your generations"? Or, "You shall not commit adultery throughout your generations"? Where did God say, "You shall not covet, steal, bear false witness, and so on, throughout your generations"? 

The ONLY law that would be limited to THEIR GENERATIONS was the Sabbath – "keep the Sabbath… observe the Sabbath throughout your generations." 
 
Throughout Your Generations – Everlasting Ordinance

In addition to the SABBATH, notice what God told the children of Israel must be kept "throughout your generations" as an "everlasting ordinance." 
 
1. The Passover / Feast of Unleavened Bread (Exodus_12:14-20, 17)
2. Burnt Offerings (Exodus_29:42)
3. Burning Incense (Exodus_30:8-10)
4. Pentecost (Leviticus_23:15-21)
 
Obviously, throughout your generations does not mean everlasting as in shall never stop. I think you tried to make this point to me in the "Hell is Eternal" thread. In this context it is certainly limited. 

We know that observing the Passover Feast is not a requirement, or observing Burnt Offerings, Burning Incense or Pentecost. Well, observing the Sabbath is in the same category - only to be observed throughout their generations.

And the NEW MAN in Christ is neither Jew nor Gentile so he/she is not even a part of those "generations". The New Man follows a new law. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. 
 
Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
 
Why be free from the law, what is wrong with the law? 
Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
 
The Law could not do what the Spirit can do.
 
Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I did not ignore what you showed. I told you, it is not deniable what you showed. However, what you showed does not mean, "The Sabbath never existed until that very moment". The same Teacher who taught Moses, and Israel, is the same Teacher who taught the Apostles. Simply because we gentiles were made known of the Holy Law of God, doesn't mean it did NOT exist beforehand. Simply because even Israel had to be made known the Holy Law of God, does not mean it did not exist beforehand.

I agree, the Sabbath is a perpetual covenant. It is a sign which God you worship, and that the Lord sanctifies you. This scripture shows the Sabbath is perpetual, much like the Holy Law of God, which is eternal. This is the only commandment, which had that bearing upon it, And you're telling me it was done away with.

"he is our peace" does not mean, Jesus Christ is the Sabbath. Jesus said Himself, He is Lord of the Sabbath.

We are Israel. If ye are Christ's seed, you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

John 8:39-40 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Anyone can claim the name Israel, through Jesus Christ.

The law of commadments contained in ordinances, is not the law of Commandments contained in stone, the eternal commadments which shall exist for eternity. One has always been, to protect humanity, and angels, and unfallen worlds, and the other had to be added, to point to the cross of Christ.

So, even a literal Israelite turned Christian would cease to keep the laws contained in ordinances, the Mosaic Law as it is called. However, they would still keep the 10 Commandments.

I do not disagree, the Son did what the law cannot. I do not disagree, we become a new creature. What I disagree with, is using scripture to "Change times and laws", or using scripture to teach opposite of James 2:10.

The entire 10 Commandment law is spiritual. It points to the heart, the keeping of the commandments within yourself, as well as externally. And you are not free from keeping the 10 Commandments. Do you understand what you're saying when you say that? Go into a jail, teach Christ, and tell them their free from keeping the law. I wonder which commandment they're thinking about breaking that very second. So what part of the law could you be freed from? You're free from the penalty, and guilt from breaking the law, that is what you are free from.

You break one commandment, you break them all. A beautiful picture of that, is when Moses was carrying the 10 Commandments, saw Israel worshipping the golden calf, dropped them, and they broke. Today, the same thing is happening. Breaking the commandments of God, for a Sunday tradition. Upon doing that, you are breaking them all.

Axehead · Jan 10, 2013

Raeneske said:
You break one commandment, you break them all. A beautiful picture of that, is when Moses was carrying the 10 Commandments, saw Israel worshipping the golden calf, dropped them, and they broke. Today, the same thing is happening. Breaking the commandments of God, for a Sunday tradition. Upon doing that, you are breaking them all.

Wrong. If your heart's orientation is to be justified by the law and you break one commandment you break them all.

The Law of the Spirit that we have been called to, not only fulfills the law but goes beyond it. Way beyond it. We go beyond the literal keeping of the Sabbath, by showing mercy and love. And mercy and love are shown 7 days a week and the way that God may have you show mercy and love will get you stoned according to the Mosaic law.

Are we clear now that the keeping of the literal 1 day a week Sabbath does not trump mercy and love? God is not interested in the religious keeping of a day, He is interested in us keeping the 2 great commandments which will keep and fulfill (way beyond the law) them all.

Also, Abraham was a Gentile and thus we are the seed of a Gentile by faith. We are not the seed of Moses, we are the seed of Abraham by faith.

This command was a shadow and now has been pre-empted (through fulfillment) by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God which sanctifies us.
Eze_20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them (Old Covenant Israel), that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Mat_12:6-7 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Mat 12:11-14 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other. Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

The Lord establishes for us that it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. He is not concerned about keeping the sabbath, or threatening us with punishment or death if we break it in order to do well. And we are not the ones that define what "doing well" is in someone else's life.

Rom_14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Here are the verses that follow:

Rom_14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom_14:6a He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

Rae, what is your stumblingblock in all of this? You know you have sinned since receiving the Spirit, correct? When did you receive the Spirit and what is your provision for the sin that you commit?

Axehead

Thegoodground · Jan 10, 2013

Raeneske said:
The Word of God does not explicitly state what you are desiring to see.

The Mosaic Law and the 10 Commandments are not the same thing.

So you would remove the 10 commandments from the Mosiac Law?

Rae in what way is Christ better than the Law? Better than the Holy Days? Bettern than Aaron? Better than the tabernacle made with hands? Better than Moses? Better than Joshua?

How did Jesus Christ superseed the 10 Commandments written in stone?

After thinking upon this I would like to see if you have a measure of honesty in answering this question.

The Prophets only ever spoke of the Sabbath as a "sign" intended to keep God before the mind of Israel. See in Exod. 31:13, 17, "My Sabbaths ye shall keep; for it is a sign between me and you... that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the Sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you; every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death". Again, by Ezekiel, 800 years afterwards, God says, "I gave them also my sabbaths ... And I said... Hallow my sabbaths, and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God" (Ezek. 20:12, 20).

If the Sabbath is only a sign (post) - in what direction does this sign post point? If the keeping of a day is but a shadow where the Jew could not see the finer details where does one go to find its meaning?

Is the Sabbath a sign?

Yes or no - lets start here.

TGG

Raeneske · Jan 10, 2013

Axehead said:
Wrong. If your heart's orientation is to be justified by the law and you break one commandment you break them all.

The Law of the Spirit that we have been called to, not only fulfills the law but goes beyond it. Way beyond it. We go beyond the literal keeping of the Sabbath, by showing mercy and love. And mercy and love are shown 7 days a week and the way that God may have you show mercy and love will get you stoned according to the Mosaic law.

Are we clear now that the keeping of the literal 1 day a week Sabbath does not trump mercy and love? God is not interested in the religious keeping of a day, He is interested in us keeping the 2 great commandments which will keep and fulfill (way beyond the law) them all.

Also, Abraham was a Gentile and thus we are the seed of a Gentile by faith. We are not the seed of Moses, we are the seed of Abraham by faith.

This command was a shadow and now has been pre-empted (through fulfillment) by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God which sanctifies us.
Eze_20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them (Old Covenant Israel), that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Mat_12:6-7 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Mat 12:11-14 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other. Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

The Lord establishes for us that it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. He is not concerned about keeping the sabbath, or threatening us with punishment or death if we break it in order to do well. And we are not the ones that define what "doing well" is in someone else's life.

Rom_14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Here are the verses that follow:

Rom_14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom_14:6a He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

Rae, what is your stumblingblock in all of this? You know you have sinned since receiving the Spirit, correct? When did you receive the Spirit and what is your provision for the sin that you commit?

Axehead

No, that is not the case.

If you believe in Jesus to save you, and yet you knowingly and willfully choose to worship other Gods, you have broken the commandments. If you believe in Jesus to save you, and yet you knowingly and willfully worship idols, you have broken the commandments. If you believe in Jesus to save you, and yet you knowingly and willfully take the Lord's name in vain, you have broken the commandments. If you believe in Jesus to save you, and yet you knowingly and willfully murder people, and commit adultery, you have broken the commandments.

The cry is, "All we need is Jesus, Jesus saves us". Yes, Jesus saves you, we aren't denying you that fact. What we are denying, is the teaching in which says you can willfully disobey.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all that obey him;

The Spirit fulfills the law, the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. For example, thou shalt not kill is the letter. Thou shalt not hate thy brother is the spirit. It is the same commandment, but the Spirit prevents your heart to be fulfilled with complete hatred as well. A Christian with the Spirit will be found keeping the letter and the spirit of the law.

The Sabbath was not a shadow of the cross. The yearly sabbaths were shadows of Jesus Christ, yes. But in a world where sin had not affected mankind, the Commandment was found kept by God. We, in the image of God, do what God does. This includes keeping the Sabbath. Adam in His happy, holy state, kept the Sabbath commandment, along with every other commandment found in the 10 Commandments.

The two great commandments are explained by Paul in Romans 13:8-10. Loving your neighbour as yourself equates to keeping the commandments. Loving God with all your heart equates to keeping the commandments. Thus, love is fulfilling the law. Can someone claim they love God while worshipping idols willfully? No, they are saying "Lord, Lord" but they refuse to obey Him. Can someone claim to love their neighbour while they are stealing their neighbours items? No, they cannot. True love, keeps the letter and the spirit of the law.

Of course, mistakes happen. When you make a mistake, you are to confess and repent of the deed. Then you are forgiven of that deed, and cleansed from all unrighteousness. That is when you mistakingly have sinned, or have been sinning. Not the Hebres 10:26 type of sinning, where you simply refuse to obey God.

The seed of Abraham is Israel, "in Jacob shall thy seed be called".

The Lord is concerned with the keeping of the Sabbath commandment, else it would not have been classed with the moral law. He would not have told his people pray that their flight wouldnt be on the Sabbath (Matthew 24:20). He also would not have been found keeping the Sabbath himself (Luke 4:16). He also would not have stated not one jot or tittle would change in the law (Matthew 5:18) if he in fact meant, the law would change. He would not have said those who teach and do the commandments shall be called great in Heaven (Matthew 5:19).

Now Christ taught that the Sabbath was to be kept, and that those doing good to others, was perfectly lawful and in harmony. He did not get rid of the Sabbath, but tossed out narrow view of the Sabbath, that you could not heal and do well on this day.

Romans 14 is about doubtful disputations. Never was keeping the law of God a doubtful disputation.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed who keep the commandments of God; and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Thegoodground said:
So you would remove the 10 commandments from the Mosiac Law?

Rae in what way is Christ better than the Law? Better than the Holy Days? Bettern than Aaron? Better than the tabernacle made with hands? Better than Moses? Better than Joshua?

How did Jesus Christ superseed the 10 Commandments written in stone?

After thinking upon this I would like to see if you have a measure of honesty in answering this question.

The Prophets only ever spoke of the Sabbath as a "sign" intended to keep God before the mind of Israel. See in Exod. 31:13, 17, "My Sabbaths ye shall keep; for it is a sign between me and you... that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the Sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you; every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death". Again, by Ezekiel, 800 years afterwards, God says, "I gave them also my sabbaths ... And I said... Hallow my sabbaths, and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God" (Ezek. 20:12, 20).

If the Sabbath is only a sign (post) - in what direction does this sign post point? If the keeping of a day is but a shadow where the Jew could not see the finer details where does one go to find its meaning?

Is the Sabbath a sign?

Yes or no - lets start here.

TGG

The mercy seat is above the ark of the covenant, mercy supercedes the breaking of the 10 Commandments. If you have seen the above post: This does not mean mercy supercedes the willfull transgression of God's law.

The Sabbath Commandment is the sign of the Lord, pointing back to creation week. It does not point to the cross, but creation week. The Sabbath Commandment shows why it is kept, why it was made for man.

Exodus 20:11 - For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day, wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it

The Lord rested on the Sabbath Day. Therefore the keepers of the Sabbath commandment profess to the whole entire world, "The Lord is my God". It is a sign to know who is your God. The Sabbath Day commandment never pointed forward to the cross. It points backward to creation week.

Thegoodground · Jan 10, 2013

Raeneske said:
No, that is not the case.

If you believe in Jesus to save you, and yet you knowingly and willfully choose to worship other Gods, you have broken the commandments. If you believe in Jesus to save you, and yet you knowingly and willfully worship idols, you have broken the commandments. If you believe in Jesus to save you, and yet you knowingly and willfully take the Lord's name in vain, you have broken the commandments. If you believe in Jesus to save you, and yet you knowingly and willfully murder people, and commit adultery, you have broken the commandments.

The cry is, "All we need is Jesus, Jesus saves us". Yes, Jesus saves you, we aren't denying you that fact. What we are denying, is the teaching in which says you can willfully disobey.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all that obey him;

The Spirit fulfills the law, the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. For example, thou shalt not kill is the letter. Thou shalt not hate thy brother is the spirit. It is the same commandment, but the Spirit prevents your heart to be fulfilled with complete hatred as well. A Christian with the Spirit will be found keeping the letter and the spirit of the law.

The Sabbath was not a shadow of the cross. The yearly sabbaths were shadows of Jesus Christ, yes. But in a world where sin had not affected mankind, the Commandment was found kept by God. We, in the image of God, do what God does. This includes keeping the Sabbath. Adam in His happy, holy state, kept the Sabbath commandment, along with every other commandment found in the 10 Commandments.

The two great commandments are explained by Paul in Romans 13:8-10. Loving your neighbour as yourself equates to keeping the commandments. Loving God with all your heart equates to keeping the commandments. Thus, love is fulfilling the law. Can someone claim they love God while worshipping idols willfully? No, they are saying "Lord, Lord" but they refuse to obey Him. Can someone claim to love their neighbour while they are stealing their neighbours items? No, they cannot. True love, keeps the letter and the spirit of the law.

Of course, mistakes happen. When you make a mistake, you are to confess and repent of the deed. Then you are forgiven of that deed, and cleansed from all unrighteousness. That is when you mistakingly have sinned, or have been sinning. Not the Hebres 10:26 type of sinning, where you simply refuse to obey God.

The seed of Abraham is Israel, "in Jacob shall thy seed be called".

The Lord is concerned with the keeping of the Sabbath commandment, else it would not have been classed with the moral law. He would not have told his people pray that their flight wouldnt be on the Sabbath (Matthew 24:20). He also would not have been found keeping the Sabbath himself (Luke 4:16). He also would not have stated not one jot or tittle would change in the law (Matthew 5:18) if he in fact meant, the law would change. He would not have said those who teach and do the commandments shall be called great in Heaven (Matthew 5:19).

Now Christ taught that the Sabbath was to be kept, and that those doing good to others, was perfectly lawful and in harmony. He did not get rid of the Sabbath, but tossed out narrow view of the Sabbath, that you could not heal and do well on this day.

Romans 14 is about doubtful disputations. Never was keeping the law of God a doubtful disputation.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed who keep the commandments of God; and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The mercy seat is above the ark of the covenant, mercy supercedes the breaking of the 10 Commandments. If you have seen the above post: This does not mean mercy supercedes the willfull transgression of God's law.

The Sabbath Commandment is the sign of the Lord, pointing back to creation week. It does not point to the cross, but creation week. The Sabbath Commandment shows why it is kept, why it was made for man.

Exodus 20:11 - For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day, wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it

The Lord rested on the Sabbath Day. Therefore the keepers of the Sabbath commandment profess to the whole entire world, "The Lord is my God". It is a sign to know who is your God. The Sabbath Day commandment never pointed forward to the cross. It points backward to creation week.

A simple yes would suffice.

You said "The Sabbath Commandment is the sign of the Lord, pointing back to creation week. It does not point to the cross, but creation week. The Sabbath Commandment shows why it is kept, why it was made for man."

So we have you on record as saying the sign between Israel and God of the Sabbath had nothing to do with God's work on the cross?

Yes or No

Axehead · Jan 11, 2013

Raeneske said:
I did not ignore what you showed. I told you, it is not deniable what you showed. However, what you showed does not mean, "The Sabbath never existed until that very moment".

All we know is that God rested. The Lord has always been faithful to declare something to us if He wants us to know about it and He has always been faithful to make sure there was a written record of it.

The same Teacher who taught Moses, and Israel, is the same Teacher who taught the Apostles. Simply because we gentiles were made known of the Holy Law of God, doesn't mean it did NOT exist beforehand. Simply because even Israel had to be made known the Holy Law of God, does not mean it did not exist beforehand.

I agree, the Sabbath is a perpetual covenant. It is a sign which God you worship, and that the Lord sanctifies you. This scripture shows the Sabbath is perpetual, much like the Holy Law of God, which is eternal. This is the only commandment, which had that bearing upon it, And you're telling me it was done away with.

If was fulfilled. The reality of the shadow has come.

"he is our peace" does not mean, Jesus Christ is the Sabbath. Jesus said Himself, He is Lord of the Sabbath.

Is there a better REST than Jesus? Is there a better Sabbath than the Lord of the Sabbath? Is a day of the week better than the rest and peace that God can give you in Jesus Christ even if you are in a prison being persecuted or dying from some sickness. A day of the week has nothing in comparison to the REAL THING - Jesus Christ!!

We are Israel. If ye are Christ's seed, you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

John 8:39-40 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

The works that Abraham did, did not include sabbath observance. Jesus is talking about works of faith. Those are the works that Abraham did that made him righteous with God.

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Anyone can claim the name Israel, through Jesus Christ.

Claiming the name Israel does not obligate anyone to observe shadows and signs.

The law of commandments contained in ordinances, is not the law of Commandments contained in stone, the eternal commandments which shall exist for eternity. One has always been, to protect humanity, and angels, and unfallen worlds, and the other had to be added, to point to the cross of Christ.

So, even a literal Israelite turned Christian would cease to keep the laws contained in ordinances, the Mosaic Law as it is called. However, they would still keep the 10 Commandments.

They would not be concerned about keeping the 10 commandments because the love of God would have been shed abroad in their hearts by the operation of the Holy Spirit and His laws would be written in their hearts and they would now be operating by faith. Love working by faith.

Gal_5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

If you have received the Holy Spirit you are missing a vital understanding of your new life in Christ. The Law of Liberty.

I do not disagree, the Son did what the law cannot. I do not disagree, we become a new creature. What I disagree with, is using scripture to "Change times and laws", or using scripture to teach opposite of James 2:10.

You do not understand James 2:10.

The entire 10 Commandment law is spiritual. It points to the heart, the keeping of the commandments within yourself, as well as externally. And you are not free from keeping the 10 Commandments. Do you understand what you're saying when you say that? Go into a jail, teach Christ, and tell them their free from keeping the law. I wonder which commandment they're thinking about breaking that very second. So what part of the law could you be freed from? You're free from the penalty, and guilt from breaking the law, that is what you are free from.

The Law of Liberty (Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ) goes beyond the outward keeping of the commandments. I already said this. I don't tell people they are free from keeping the law, but in Christ, they are now set free to fulfill the law, because they are now In Christ and He is in them and the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in all those who walk by the Spirit. Don't you think it would be a good study regarding what "walking by the Spirit" is?

Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Raeneske said:
You break one commandment, you break them all. A beautiful picture of that, is when Moses was carrying the 10 Commandments, saw Israel worshipping the golden calf, dropped them, and they broke. Today, the same thing is happening. Breaking the commandments of God, for a Sunday tradition. Upon doing that, you are breaking them all.

Ok, so most Christians including you have broken all 10 commandments in at least thought, so where does that leave them (and you)?
What is the provision that God has given us? You call it a "making a mistake", I call it sin and so does God. What is the provision for our sin? It is Christ, right? But you are now mixing two different subjects. I am not condoning willful disobedience, but you are making a sin where there is no sin because you don't understand the Scripture. You are making a sin for those that do not keep the outward Sabbath and the Spirit and the Word teach differently than you.

The absence of merciful behavior is evidence that the Merciful One does not live in a person and this is what will make one susceptible to the judgment of God.

How does "mercy triumph over judgement?"

The Sabbath was originally instituted so that man could rest and enjoy what God had done, the religionists (Pharisees) had added restrictive rules and regulations, prohibitions and injunctions, that made the Sabbath into a legalistic nightmare. Though the Law read that the people of God were not to work on the Sabbath (Exod. 20:10), Jesus explained to the authorities that God, His Father, had continued to work, and therefore He was continuing to work irregardless of the day of the week. On the basis of that self-assertion the religious authorities not only sought His death for Sabbath-breaking, but for blasphemously calling God His personal Father and making Himself equal with God.

Axehead

Raeneske · Jan 11, 2013

Thegoodground said:
A simple yes would suffice.

You said "The Sabbath Commandment is the sign of the Lord, pointing back to creation week. It does not point to the cross, but creation week. The Sabbath Commandment shows why it is kept, why it was made for man."

So we have you on record as saying the sign between Israel and God of the Sabbath had nothing to do with God's work on the cross?

Yes or No

The sign of the 7th Day Sabbath points to creation week, not the cross, yes. The 7th Day Sabbath was instituted in Eden before sin, not after.

Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Please find, meat and drink offerings in the Sabbath Day Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) before you post those verses I just showed, claiming I am in error. And if you cannot find you, I bid you,read the 23rd Chapter of Leviticus, which even then shows the difference between the Sabbath Day and the annual sabbaths.

Axehead said:
The absence of merciful behavior is evidence that the Merciful One does not live in a person and this is what will make one susceptible to the judgment of God. 

How does "mercy triumph over judgement?"<

The Sabbath was originally instituted so that man could rest and enjoy what God had done, the religionists (Pharisees) had added restrictive rules and regulations, prohibitions and injunctions, that made the Sabbath into a legalistic nightmare. Though the Law read that the people of God were not to work on the Sabbath (Exod. 20:10), Jesus explained to the authorities that God, His Father, had continued to work, and therefore He was continuing to work irregardless of the day of the week. On the basis of that self-assertion the religious authorities not only sought His death for Sabbath-breaking, but for blasphemously calling God His personal Father and making Himself equal with God.

Axehead

I am not denying that the Lord is faithful. The Lord is faithful indeed. However, the assertion that such laws never existed before Sinai is error.

If you would please look at what I said to TGG, that will show you that the Commandment of God is not a shadow.

Jesus is not the Sabbath. Jesus is the Saviour of those obediant Christians who keep His Sabbath. He is Lord over the Sabbath Day, thus we know our Lord is the one who rested about 6,000 years ago on that day.

Abraham kept the Commandments of God. The Sabbath commandment is in the 10 Commandments.

The law is to be written in our hearts, so how can you say keeping the law does not matter? That's quite a contradictory statement. "He wrote the law in our hearts, so don't worry about having to keep it". Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the Law being written in our hearts? It's mighty important to God that the 10 Commandments, the Moral Law, as existed before Sinai, was next written in stone, and now it is written in our hearts.

You made mention of the Law of Liberty. That is the 10 Commandments, for this is written of the Law of Liberty:

James 1:23-25 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:10-12 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Now no, I understand James 2:10, and it's not what is being repeatedly taught. James 2:10 is not saying, that once you have sinned forget about the law, you may as well forget about it. No, blessed are they that hear the law and do them. So, what happens when you break the law then? You repent of the deed, and Jesus cleanses you from all unrighteousness. We have the sins blotted out. Therefore, you stand in Jesus's righteousness as if you've never sinned. This does not mean we've never sinned, please don't take that out of context. Jesus imputes His righteousness to you. That is why Jesus says, "Go, and sin no more". You've been forgiven, and the Son is there for you, to help Succour the tempted, this is why we become new creatures. The old sinful man dies away, and "Whosoever is born of God, sinneth not".

The Lord who is merciful, does give you mercy. He forgives our transgressions. Mercy triumps over the law. But this is only for those who seek mercy, and then OBEY the Lord. This is why those who seek mercy, but then willingly decide to continually disobey, are the ones saying "Lord Lord!" And He says "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity". They refused to obey Him, despite all the evidence presented before them, that they were supposed to obey. They claimed "Mercy! Mercy!", while trampling on the Commadments of God. That is why they are workers of iniquity. That is why they find themselves outside the Kingdom of God. To those poor souls I cry out in anguish, cease from your unrighteous works. "He that doeth righteousness is righteous, him that worketh unrighteousness is unrighteous".

The "religionists", as you have called them, added needless regulations. Thinking to be doing the work of God, they found themselves in opposition to Him. When Jesus said that He and His Father worked, He made it a point to also say, "The Sabbath was made for man". Men, are to rest to enjoy God, and creation. Jesus did not forbid saving work, the work of healing one in severe pain, the work of looking after the sick, and lonely. All this work is in harmony with the Sabbath. And why is that? Because they give these souls rest in their hearts. The Sabbath is enjoyable to the giver and the receiver. However, Jesus did not sanction the manner of secular labour, like business transactions.

Jesus corrected the narrow minded views of which those who looked upon the law, thought it had. In correcting their views on murder, and adultery, he also corrected the view upon the Sabbath. It is to be obeyed by Christians, as it was to be obeyed by Jews. Our deeper understanding of the Sabbath does not dismiss you and I from having to keep it. The Lord was serious when He said not one jot or tittle should change. It has not changed at all. The 7th Day is still the Sabbath, and you and I are still not to work on the day. You are still commanded to rest. This is the Sabbath truth, the warning the Angel in Revelation has given you, and I, and the whole world.

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

God inspires prophecy. It is no coincidence, the Sabbath Commandment is found in the Moral Law, the unchangeable one, and that the same message in the Sabbath, is found in the angels message, to call the world back to worshipping the Creator of the World.

Axehead · Jan 11, 2013

Raeneske said:
The sign of the 7th Day Sabbath points to creation week, not the cross, yes. The 7th Day Sabbath was instituted in Eden before sin, not after.

Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Please find, meat and drink offerings in the Sabbath Day Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) before you post those verses I just showed, claiming I am in error. And if you cannot find you, I bid you,read the 23rd Chapter of Leviticus, which even then shows the difference between the Sabbath Day and the annual sabbaths.

I am not denying that the Lord is faithful. The Lord is faithful indeed. However, the assertion that such laws never existed before Sinai is error.

If you would please look at what I said to TGG, that will show you that the Commandment of God is not a shadow.

Jesus is not the Sabbath. Jesus is the Saviour of those obediant Christians who keep His Sabbath. He is Lord over the Sabbath Day, thus we know our Lord is the one who rested about 6,000 years ago on that day.

Abraham kept the Commandments of God. The Sabbath commandment is in the 10 Commandments.

The law is to be written in our hearts, so how can you say keeping the law does not matter? That's quite a contradictory statement. "He wrote the law in our hearts, so don't worry about having to keep it". Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the Law being written in our hearts? It's mighty important to God that the 10 Commandments, the Moral Law, as existed before Sinai, was next written in stone, and now it is written in our hearts.

You made mention of the Law of Liberty. That is the 10 Commandments, for this is written of the Law of Liberty:

James 1:23-25 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:10-12 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Now no, I understand James 2:10, and it's not what is being repeatedly taught. James 2:10 is not saying, that once you have sinned forget about the law, you may as well forget about it. No, blessed are they that hear the law and do them. So, what happens when you break the law then? You repent of the deed, and Jesus cleanses you from all unrighteousness. We have the sins blotted out. Therefore, you stand in Jesus's righteousness as if you've never sinned. This does not mean we've never sinned, please don't take that out of context. Jesus imputes His righteousness to you. That is why Jesus says, "Go, and sin no more". You've been forgiven, and the Son is there for you, to help Succour the tempted, this is why we become new creatures. The old sinful man dies away, and "Whosoever is born of God, sinneth not".

The Lord who is merciful, does give you mercy. He forgives our transgressions. Mercy triumps over the law. But this is only for those who seek mercy, and then OBEY the Lord. This is why those who seek mercy, but then willingly decide to continually disobey, are the ones saying "Lord Lord!" And He says "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity". They refused to obey Him, despite all the evidence presented before them, that they were supposed to obey. They claimed "Mercy! Mercy!", while trampling on the Commadments of God. That is why they are workers of iniquity. That is why they find themselves outside the Kingdom of God. To those poor souls I cry out in anguish, cease from your unrighteous works. "He that doeth righteousness is righteous, him that worketh unrighteousness is unrighteous".

The "religionists", as you have called them, added needless regulations. Thinking to be doing the work of God, they found themselves in opposition to Him. When Jesus said that He and His Father worked, He made it a point to also say, "The Sabbath was made for man". Men, are to rest to enjoy God, and creation. Jesus did not forbid saving work, the work of healing one in severe pain, the work of looking after the sick, and lonely. All this work is in harmony with the Sabbath. And why is that? Because they give these souls rest in their hearts. The Sabbath is enjoyable to the giver and the receiver. However, Jesus did not sanction the manner of secular labour, like business transactions.

Jesus corrected the narrow minded views of which those who looked upon the law, thought it had. In correcting their views on murder, and adultery, he also corrected the view upon the Sabbath. It is to be obeyed by Christians, as it was to be obeyed by Jews. Our deeper understanding of the Sabbath does not dismiss you and I from having to keep it. The Lord was serious when He said not one jot or tittle should change. It has not changed at all. The 7th Day is still the Sabbath, and you and I are still not to work on the day. You are still commanded to rest. This is the Sabbath truth, the warning the Angel in Revelation has given you, and I, and the whole world.

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

God inspires prophecy. It is no coincidence, the Sabbath Commandment is found in the Moral Law, the unchangeable one, and that the same message in the Sabbath, is found in the angels message, to call the world back to worshipping the Creator of the World.

I'm sorry Rae, I think you are inferring and assuming too many things prior to the Mosaic covenant. And I understand why you are doing it. However, I am not even sure you understand the Law of Liberty and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus so at this point I think it is best that I back off and allow someone else who may be able to explain things in a better way, to you.

All the best,
Axehead

James Forthwright · Jan 12, 2013

[font=comic sans ms']Raeneske, I highly commend your devotion to God's eternal Law. The Ten Commandments are the foundation of God's Law and were inscribed in stone by the Creator's own hand. I believe they are divinely arranged in a hierarchical fashion. The Sabbath at #4 is certainly high on that sacred list. How is it that NONE of the other nine commandments are ever disputed as still being relevant to Christians? It is not a demonstration of "liberty" in Christ to dismiss our obligations to obey our Heavenly Father's commandments. Jesus and His disciples certainly obeyed each and every one of the Ten Commandments.[/font]

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

mjrhealth · Jan 12, 2013

Before the cross it was all about the flesh after the cross it is all about the Spirit.

Luk_11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

But again, there are many still trying to fit the new wine into the old wine skin. It doesnt work.

In all His Love

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