Sabbath

[mjrhealth]

His commandment,

To Love,

If I was to agree with you we would both be wrong and I would have to believe a lie.

He Loves you anyway

in all His Love

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

The law judges you of sin, Christ died for your sin so you would no longer be judged by the law, if you jave accepted Christ the law has no more hold on you, but if you do not let it go, than you have not accepted His Gift and will be always a sinner and be in judgement by the law.

In all His Love

 

[Raeneske]

His commandment,

To Love,

If I was to agree with you we would both be wrong and I would have to believe a lie.

He Loves you anyway

in all His Love


Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

The law judges you of sin, Christ died for your sin so you would no longer be judged by the law, if you jave accepted Christ the law has no more hold on you, but if you do not let it go, than you have not accepted His Gift and will be always a sinner and be in judgement by the law.

In all His Love

Jesus's Commandments:

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.[/i]

Paul's explanation of those two commandments:

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul shows Jesus was referring to the 10 Commandments.

John 16:8-9 does not contradict what is stated. Obviously we have faith. Does your faith stop you from trying to "keep the great commandments"? No, it doesn't. Here Paul shows you the Jesus was still referring to the 10 Commandments. Your keeping of them does not deny you faith. If you don't keep them, you actually deny your faith.

You're still judged by the law of liberty, that being the 10 Commandments, as shown in James 2:10-12.

The Commadment of God, is not a commandment of men. The ordinances are not the 10 Commandment eternal law.

 

[mjrhealth]

satan has you in a spin over sin. he has you wrapped around his finger, as he does so many.

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Again you have put yourself into bondage, why,it does nothing for you, has no gain only loss.

In His love

 

[Raeneske]

satan has you in a spin over sin. he has you wrapped around his finger, as he does so many.

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Again you have put yourself into bondage, why,it does nothing for you, has no gain only loss.

In His love

James 2:10-12 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Cannot be the law of liberty and a yoke of bondage at the same time.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[mjrhealth]

Its a good thing your salvation is not dependent on me in any way. And yet people tell me the bible is the word of God, and here we stand using it against one another. I guess that is why Jesus sent the Holy spirirt and why God alone grants revelation without which we cannot live.

I cannot make you see, you choose not to see.

In all His Love

Choose the law Ill choose Christ.

In all Hos most precious grace and Love


I would still like to know, how any man can keep the law. Jesus never died to help us keep the law, for Him to do so would have annulled the whole point. So if He isnt there to help you keep the law, how in your own stregth are you going to do it.

Vainty, pride, the flesh, bondage to sin and death,

why do you choose this option??

In all His Love patients and Grace

 

[Raeneske]

Its a good thing your salvation is not dependent on me in any way. And yet people tell me the bible is the word of God, and here we stand using it against one another. I guess that is why Jesus sent the Holy spirirt and why God alone grants revelation without which we cannot live.

I cannot make you see, you choose not to see.

In all His Love

Choose the law Ill choose Christ.

In all Hos most precious grace and Love


I would still like to know, how any man can keep the law. Jesus never died to help us keep the law, for Him to do so would have annulled the whole point. So if He isnt there to help you keep the law, how in your own stregth are you going to do it.

Vainty, pride, the flesh, bondage to sin and death,

why do you choose this option??

In all His Love patients and Grace

You're not gonna be able to tell anyone that who actually can keep the Commandments through Christ. And that's the problem, have you ever known anyone that can actually keep the Commandments of God, through Jesus Christ, for a day? For two days? For three days? For a week? As crazy as that may sound to you, and anyone else that views this, you CAN do this through Christ. And THAT is a FACT.

Christ died to free us from the bondage of sin. What tells us what sin is? The Law, right? So, if we're free from the bondage of sin, why in the world would be still be breaking the Commandments of God left and right? Wouldn't that give the impression that you're not free from the bondage of sin? You wouldn't break them left and right with Christ! You'd be keeping the law, because Christ freed you from the bondage that Satan had over you. Christ freed you from the penalty of sin! You have become a servant of righteousness. You cannot help but keep the law! You'd make mistakes, yes, but anyone who comes to Christ has this power freely to take from Him. So in actuality, I'm not keeping the law. He's in me, assisting me overcome my faults, and keeping the 10 Commandments for me, because the flesh is weak.

If you think that we think we do this on our own....

Ha. Haha. Hahahahahahahahaha.

But seriously, not a single person could keep the commandments on their own. Jesus helps you keep the commandments. You cannot even love your fellow humans without Christ.

Those that deny that Jesus can give you the strength to overcome, must deal with the verse that speaks of "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof". That power stregthens you (I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me), enables you to overcome. You become a "servant of righteousness", instead of a "servant of sin". The "old man dies", you become a "new creature". A Christian goes through an absolute metamorphisis. I mean, can you blame us for loving Jesus so much? Not only does he save us from death, but he gives us His strength to overcome our wretchedness! Oh, what love! No one is denying their Saviour, simply because they recognize the eternal significance of the law. No one is denying their Saviour, simply because He has given not just me, but YOU and every single soul reading this the able ability to overcome.

 

[mjrhealth]

So tell me which LAW did you break today, You have 99% but missed the one. Its LOVE that stops us from sinning, not the LAW, yet you keep running to teh LAW as if it can do you some good.. Jesus condemned sin to the flesh, our fles will perish and our sin with it, Every day you sin, evenj PAul said, those things i should do I do not, and those things i shouldnt do I do,

Jesus will have no part in helping you keep the law, as you said, He died to free us from it, than you turn right around and say you must keep it,

Tell us all which is it,

Are you free from it or not.

And If you are freew from it why do you keep it, its not even yours to keep.

In all His love

 

[Raeneske]

So tell me which LAW did you break today, You have 99% but missed the one. Its LOVE that stops us from sinning, not the LAW, yet you keep running to teh LAW as if it can do you some good.. Jesus condemned sin to the flesh, our fles will perish and our sin with it, Every day you sin, evenj PAul said, those things i should do I do not, and those things i shouldnt do I do,

Jesus will have no part in helping you keep the law, as you said, He died to free us from it, than you turn right around and say you must keep it,

Tell us all which is it,

Are you free from it or not.

And If you are freew from it why do you keep it, its not even yours to keep.

In all His love

Please show me where it says, "Everyday you sin".

As of today? Nothing, the day just started. Do I make boast? NO! It is Christ within me, fulfilling the law. Christ is keeping the law within me, what reason have I to sin?

You keep saying Love, but I think you're missing the point of what true love is. Look at those 10 Commandments please. If you truly love God, or any of your neighbours, will you break those? How can you say you love God, but put other gods before Him? How can you say you love God, but worship idols? How can you say you love God, but continuously take His name in vain?

I'm sure I've sinned in unknown ways. But, you can go days, even weeks, walking "blameless", as the scriptures call it.

It seems like you're calling the law sin. The law is not sin. Paul even says that.

Are you going to accuse me of breaking commandments everyday? You know that's bearing false witness, right? Do you really think it's that hard with Jesus to keep His laws? Seriously, He's doing it for you.
You're a Christian, you're supposed to go through a change. It's not immediate, it takes time. But the beauty of it is, with Christ, I can do all things. Scripture can accuralty say the saints have faith and Jesus, and keep the commandments. Why? Because we CAN keep them, through Jesus Christ.

Also, Jesus assuredly did not die so that you wouldn't have to keep the law. Did Jesus die, so that you can murder people? Really? Did He die so you can steal? Really? Did He die so you can disrespect your parents? Really? Did He die so you can worship other gods and idols? Really?

Jesus died to take away your sins, and to take away the curse of the law. The law is not the curse, it is just, and holy. Jesus also says He gave us His Spirit? How can any of us sin, if we have the Spirit? How can any of us sin, if we are truly born of God? You won't.

 

[Thegoodground]

You were not delivered from keeping the 10 Commandments;

It is concerning you speak to a keeping of a writing law, one inscribed in stone.

If I am correct you are trying to reconcile justification by Law cmp to justification by faith.

Its like trying to bring together the Levitical Priesthood and the Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.

Its a spiritual impossiblity.

This is why you are struggling with so many people all with varying beliefs but all united agianst your unscriptual position.

TGG.

 

[Raeneske]

It is concerning you speak to a keeping of a writing law, one inscribed in stone.

If I am correct you are trying to reconcile justification by Law cmp to justification by faith.

Its like trying to bring together the Levitical Priesthood and the Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.

Its a spiritual impossiblity.

This is why you are struggling with so many people all with varying beliefs but all united agianst your unscriptual position.

TGG.

All are justified through faith in Christ alone. But, how can you claim Christ as Lord, when you continue to trample upon the Holy Precepts of God? The 10 Commandments are the absolute standard, the transcription of the Character of the Holy One. Can claiming Christ as Lord save you, while you continue to go out and murder people 24/7? No. You see then, how faith saves you, but your own works deny you have faith in Him.

Your own works, being sin, deny you have in fact been freed from the bondage of sin. Those works which transgress the precepts of the Creator, deny that you have the Son, and declare that Satan is lord of your life.

Look at the 10 Commandments. How can you claim Christ as Lord, and still live as the world, transgressing every single precept? You cannot.

It is not unscriptural to point the sheep, and get them back to Christianity, the faith the apostles shared.

Blessed are they that keep the Commandments of God, and the faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Thegoodground]

All are justified through faith in Christ alone.

You say this but hold to word inscribe in stone?

But, how can you claim Christ as Lord, when you continue to trample upon the Holy Precepts of God?

Hmmm show me where I have trampled the Holy Precepts of God? Please highlight which post? (This is arrogance on your part and continue in this vain your credibility will deminish very quickly)

Where does your frustration have its roots?

The 10 Commandments are the absolute standard, the transcription of the Character of the Holy One.

Absolute standard you say? Why then was a new commandment required? If as you say the Law written in stone was the absolute standard? Again you do not understand the pupose of the Law and How God placed within the means by which it (the law) could curse His son...and you say its the absolute standard.

Sorry, you know very little about the standard of Yawhehs Word...best you empty yourself and return to the Holy Scriptures for wisdom and truth.

Can claiming Christ as Lord save you, while you continue to go out and murder people 24/7? No.

Here is the Spirit and not law.

See Matt 5:22

You see then, how faith saves you, but your own works deny you have faith in Him.

This makes no sense at all :mellow:

Your own works, being sin, deny you have in fact been freed from the bondage of sin. Those works which transgress the precepts of the Creator, deny that you have the Son, and declare that Satan is lord of your life.

Something whacky going on there...maybe you can explain its relevance?

Look at the 10 Commandments. How can you claim Christ as Lord, and still live as the world, transgressing every single precept? You cannot.

More nonsensical gibberish - boy when you run away with a thought you certainly go all the way.

It is not unscriptural to point the sheep, and get them back to Christianity, the faith the apostles shared.

Again where is this coming from?

Blessed are they that keep the Commandments of God, and the faith in Jesus Christ.

For the Gentile believer what are those commandments seeing the Law of Moses only spoke to those who were under it?

Are you a Jew circumcised on the eight day?

This verse must be kept in the back of our minds at all times when discussing why we don’t keep the law today. The law spoke to those who were under it, namely the Jews.

Colossians 1:16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Hebrews 10:1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things,

The sacrifices (and the Law) could never make the offerers perfect and so we must ask the question why did God make them offer them?

Gal 3:23 Wherefore the law was our (Jews) schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Now, if you are able to show the Law was given to the Gentiles to bring them to Christ by all means show us.

But I think once again you are trying, ever so poorly, to uphold Church Doctrine, which is sad really; God's Word sounded as the clearest trumpet can awaken even the sleepiest of minds.

Time to wake up.

 

[mjrhealth]

The thin line between Grace and the Law,

I hope you can all see what is going on here. This is how the enemy the deceiver wears us down, wins batlles with subtle lies.

You see we gentiles came to Christ under Grace, the law was never ours, never given to us but it causes many to stumble.How,? its so simple but is taken me 30 years to see.
See once you come to Christ you are no longer in sin, because now He becomes your standard and its Love that keeps you from stumbling. But than teh enemy says to you, " but now how are you going to determine what is right and wrong , what will cause you to not sin", yes that awfull sin word, he loves it for it troubles our flesh, and than he says," you have the law if you follow it, that will be your standard", so in the blink of an eye you have just gone from Grace to the LAw without ever realsing it.

So stop listening to Him.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.


This is what we live by,

In all His love

 

[Thegoodground]

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Lovely quote.

Paul was blameless according to the Law of Moses (including the 10 commandments) however this only ever produce a righteousness of his own or in himself.

You see Raeneske could endeavour to meticulously perform all the ordinances of the Law of Moses and while this would win the admiration of men, it could never achieve the absolute perfection God requires (Gal 3:10,11; James 2:10). And as we all know it was impossible for sinful man to keep that written law perfectly; it served primarily as the "guide" or "schoolmaster", to lead men to Christ (Rom 3:19; Rom 5:13; Rom 7:7-14; Gal 3:24).

Now we all know the Law is righteous and good for anything that comes from God is full of goodness, however the Law of Moses including the 10 Commandments, feasts, holy days and sacrifices were never intended (as you rightly state) for the gentiles.

All of this is styled here by Paul as "handwriting of ordinances"...

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (Col 2:14)

The Pharisees and the Saducees also the Seventh Day Adventist’s place a great deal of emphasis on keeping this day as a law or command. So in some part we should prove from scripture a right understanding.

Hebrews 4: 9.10

9There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

Paul is talking about the seventh day, we know he is writing to the Jews to explain to them it is no longer necessary for them to keep the Sabbath day. So when we read there remains a (true sabbath) rest for the people of God.

What does he mean and how does it apply to those in Christ?

The question is who is the Lord of the Sabbath?

The written ordinances of the Lord Jesus Christ? If Raeneske states Christ; is that a single day of the week or is one labouring to enter that rest everyday?

Christ gives you the answer...

Joh 5:16

And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. Joh 5:17

But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working."

Notice the answer does not change, even if one tried to twist these verses to imply the Pharisees misapllied the Sabbath Jesus states that the sabbath is a constant everyday since Adam sinned and caused God to come out of his rest - He has been working in the earth to restore that lost rest.

Its the "until now" that Raeneske needs to deal with for they expect a keeping of a single day but Jesus states "As my Father works every day so I also work", little does Raeneske know the mind of God concerning His promised rest.

TGG

 

[John_8:32]

This was settled long ago at the Jerusalem council. Acts 15:5 - "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

Peter's reply, Acts 15:8-11 - "And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

James's reply, Acts 15:19-20 - "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."

Notice, there is no mention at all of sabbath-keeping. Then we read further on that they sent out letters affirming these same restrictions.

Acts 15:23-24 - "And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia. 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" ...29 "That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

How much plainer do you need it to be?! All the apostles agreed, Gentiles need not keep the law!!!

You really can't be serious can you? Murder, adultery, theft and lying aren't mentioned here either, so you just assume that that is acceptable to God? Interesting, but I am certainly glad we do not live in the same neighborhood.

 

[Trekson]

Really John, That's all you can up with? I don't keep the written law so that means I'm a thieving, lying, adulterous, murderer. When the law is written in your heart, maybe you'll understand that the goal of a christian is to imitate Him, not obey the law, so as I reflect the love of Christ to others, the written law is automatically obeyed. I don't worry about nos. 1, 3, 6, etc. I just love and let the rest take care of itself through faith in my Redeemer. You should try it sometime, it's really quite liberating!

 

[John_8:32]

Really John, That's all you can up with? I don't keep the written law so that means I'm a thieving, lying, adulterous, murderer. When the law is written in your heart, maybe you'll understand that the goal of a christian is to imitate Him,

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

'Tis you who are encouraging others to live a life contrary to that of Christ by teaching that Christ did away with the very law He gave and lived by.

not obey the law,

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

so as I reflect the love of Christ to others,

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

the written law is automatically obeyed. I don't worry about nos. 1, 3, 6,

Hmmm, no conscious thought about Who your God is?. No thought about taking God's name in vain by misrepresenting what He says? No thought about how Christ made the Commandments more binding...

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

How do you handle disagreements?

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

You would automatically know to do this? This is a very precise method.

etc. I just love and let the rest take care of itself through faith in my Redeemer. You should try it sometime, it's really quite liberating!

I prefer to study the Word of God and do exactly what Christ instructs me to do. When I see that I am in error, I repent, ask forgiveness and change, but that doesn't come automatically for me or anyone else for that matter...

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

end:

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

The result of the law.

 

[Raeneske]

You say this but hold to word inscribe in stone?


Hmmm show me where I have trampled the Holy Precepts of God? Please highlight which post? (This is arrogance on your part and continue in this vain your credibility will deminish very quickly)

Where does your frustration have its roots?


Absolute standard you say? Why then was a new commandment required? If as you say the Law written in stone was the absolute standard? Again you do not understand the pupose of the Law and How God placed within the means by which it (the law) could curse His son...and you say its the absolute standard.

Sorry, you know very little about the standard of Yawhehs Word...best you empty yourself and return to the Holy Scriptures for wisdom and truth.



Here is the Spirit and not law.

See Matt 5:22


This makes no sense at all :mellow:


Something whacky going on there...maybe you can explain its relevance?



More nonsensical gibberish - boy when you run away with a thought you certainly go all the way.



Again where is this coming from?


For the Gentile believer what are those commandments seeing the Law of Moses only spoke to those who were under it?

Are you a Jew circumcised on the eight day?

This verse must be kept in the back of our minds at all times when discussing why we don’t keep the law today. The law spoke to those who were under it, namely the Jews.

Colossians 1:16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Hebrews 10:1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things,

The sacrifices (and the Law) could never make the offerers perfect and so we must ask the question why did God make them offer them?

Gal 3:23 Wherefore the law was our (Jews) schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Now, if you are able to show the Law was given to the Gentiles to bring them to Christ by all means show us.

But I think once again you are trying, ever so poorly, to uphold Church Doctrine, which is sad really; God's Word sounded as the clearest trumpet can awaken even the sleepiest of minds.

Time to wake up.

All are justified through faith in Christ alone. But claiming Jesus Christ as Lord, and claiming to have faith in Him, does not change the fact that you must then obey Him. Hence, the pointing to the 10 Commandments, which we must obey.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I think you took that a little too personal Thegoodground. I was making the point that those who transgress the precepts of the Creator God, and claim Him as Lord, are worshipping Him in vain. Nowhere was I referring to a post where you were transgressing the Holy Precepts. The conversation is, those who transgress the 10 Holy Precepts of the Creator God, whether it be all 10, or simply one commandment.

Yes, the absolute standard of God’s righteousness. Many continue to claim, and ask what the need for the New law was for. But if you have read, you would read that this was never a new law, it is simply new to those who are having the veil removed from their face.

1 John 2:7-8 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

Those who say you must love your neighbor as yourself, and God with all your heart soul and mind are correct in that statement. The question then is, how do you love God, and love your neighbor? The 10 Commandments show you how to do that. Paul explains this in Romans 13:8-10.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul unmistakingly points back to the 10 Commandments, showing that to love thy neighbor as yourself, is to keep the commandments. In the same manner, to Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, is to keep commandments 1-4. You cannot claim love of God, or your neighbor, if you continually transgress the precepts of God’s divine Law. To continually kill your neighbors does not prove you love them, no matter how much you say you do. To continually steal from your neighbors does not prove you love them, no matter how much you say you do. I am referring to willful and purposeful and unrepentant transgression of the Law of God.

The 10 Commandments are a perfect transcription of Jesus Christ’s Character. As Paul shows you, to love your neighbor, you will not break those commandments, as Jesus Christ did not break His Father’s commandments.

The purpose of God’s sacrificial and ceremonial law was to present Christ Jesus to the world in a hands-on, direct way. It was a continual prophecy of years to come to testify of Him that would die. I am not ignorant of the reason of the ceremonial law. However, the 10 Commandments are not the ceremonial laws. The 10 Commandments are the Holy Precepts of the Creator God. All 10 Commandments are supposed to be kept by the Christian. The 10 Commandments did not, and shall not pass away. Who would believe that “Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not worship idols, Thou shalt have no other gods before me, thou shalt not take the Lord’s name in vain, honour thy father and mother, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not bear false witness, thou shalt not covet” have passed away? They have not, they are the moral law, the moral standard in which all Christians are to live and keep. The problem then, lies with the Sabbath. The Sabbath Commandment was classed with the moral law, the 7th day Sabbath, and was not classed with the ceremonial laws. God purposely put the 7th Day Sabbath in with the other commandments of God.

My comment still stands: you cannot murder people 24/7 and claim Christ as Lord. You cannot even be angry with your bother without cause, nor say “thou fool” to His brother continually, unrepentantly, willingly. You keep the letter of the law, not murdering people, and you keep the spirit of the law, refusing to be angry with your brother without cause.

Okay, faith in Christ is what saves you. But, if you claim you have faith in Christ, but continually break the commandment of stealing, do not your own works deny that you have faith in Christ? How can you tell a Christian from the world? By their fruits, correct? If a Christian shows the fruit of continually stealing purposely and willfully and said, “My faith is what saves me, not my works”, do not the man’s own works deny that He has faith in Jesus Christ? Christ made us free from the bondage of sin. The 10 Commandments tell you what sin is. Christ released you from being a servant to sin, and you have then become a servant of righteousness. By calling Jesus Christ Lord, yet bearing the fruits of Satan, does it show that you are actually a Christian? See then, the works of the man deny that He has faith in Jesus Christ.

Try as you may, you cannot truly have Christ as Lord, while transgressing the 10 Commandments of God. “I’m going to go party hardy, and cheat on my wife tonight.” Is that a Christian? Such a man is in danger of hellfire. Can a man claim to be a Christian, and continually and routinely steal, cheat on his wife, and bear false witness? “By their fruits you shall know them”. His fruits testify against him.

The 10 Commandments and the Ceremonial Law are completely different. Colossians 1:16 shows that the ceremonial law was a shadow of things to come, just like Hebrews 10:1. It was never referring to the 10 Commandments. The Law, the ceremonial one, was never given to the gentiles. The Law of the 10 Commandments however, still stands.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The law, which is established, is not the ceremonial law. Or else we would have to still perform sacrifices, would we not?
Romans 6:1-2,14-16 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Can a Christian continue to break the law of God, though they are under grace? No, of course not. How can any Christian continue to live in sin, if they are dead to sin? If a Christian yields himself to continually murder and slander, and steal from his brethren, he then becomes a servant of unrighteousness (the leader there being Satan), but if a Christian does not break the law of God, his fruits show that he is a Christian, and not a leader of unrighteousness.

Really John, That's all you can up with? I don't keep the written law so that means I'm a thieving, lying, adulterous, murderer. When the law is written in your heart, maybe you'll understand that the goal of a christian is to imitate Him, not obey the law, so as I reflect the love of Christ to others, the written law is automatically obeyed. I don't worry about nos. 1, 3, 6, etc. I just love and let the rest take care of itself through faith in my Redeemer. You should try it sometime, it's really quite liberating!

If you aren't lying, stealing, committing adultery, or murdering, you are in face keeping 4 out of the 10 Commandments. That law (the 10 commandments), is written upon the tablets of your heart. You understand that. Now, all we're showing you is that the 4th Commandment, is just as eternal as the rest of the laws.

 

[Thegoodground]

All are justified through faith in Christ alone.

Again you say this while holding to a written code.

But claiming Jesus Christ as Lord, and claiming to have faith in Him, does not change the fact that you must then obey Him. Hence, the pointing to the 10 Commandments, which we must obey.

Can you show us where Christ gave the 10 commandments to obey? But lets start with the fourth shall we?

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I think you took that a little too personal Thegoodground.

Not at all, just responding to your foolishness which it appears was foolish of me.

Will we see humility from you or justification?

I was making the point that those who transgress the precepts of the Creator God, and claim Him as Lord, are worshipping Him in vain.

You seem to forget "all men a liars" your point is mute in support of keeping a written code that God took out of the way in His Son.

Nowhere was I referring to a post where you were transgressing the Holy Precepts. The conversation is, those who transgress the 10 Holy Precepts of the Creator God, whether it be all 10, or simply one commandment.

You are like a reed blowing in the wind.

Here is what you wrote "But, how can you claim Christ as Lord, when you continue to trample upon the Holy Precepts of God?"

Who is the you?

Yes, the absolute standard of God’s righteousness. Many continue to claim, and ask what the need for the New law was for. But if you have read, you would read that this was never a new law, it is simply new to those who are having the veil removed from their face.

1 John 2:7-8 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

Those who say you must love your neighbor as yourself, and God with all your heart soul and mind are correct in that statement. The question then is, how do you love God, and love your neighbor? The 10 Commandments show you how to do that. Paul explains this in Romans 13:8-10.

No. Jesus Christ shows you how to do that.

Its new becuase he was the only one to fulfill all the law and the prophets, hence why the Law is completely removed from Jew and never offered to the Gentile, though the Spirit of the Law continues in Christ.

By the way your ref to Rom 13 any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Can you please show me in the Law where this command was given as a written Law?

"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul unmistakingly points back to the 10 Commandments, showing that to love thy neighbor as yourself, is to keep the commandments. In the same manner, to Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, is to keep commandments 1-4. You cannot claim love of God, or your neighbor, if you continually transgress the precepts of God’s divine Law.

So do you believe that in keeping "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" you are keeping the written Law and all its requirements?

To continually kill your neighbors does not prove you love them, no matter how much you say you do. To continually steal from your neighbors does not prove you love them, no matter how much you say you do. I am referring to willful and purposeful and unrepentant transgression of the Law of God.

The 10 Commandments are a perfect transcription of Jesus Christ’s Character. As Paul shows you, to love your neighbor, you will not break those commandments, as Jesus Christ did not break His Father’s commandments.

True, the 10 commandments are perfect and holy but now replaced entirely with two great commandments not writtin in stone but upon hearts.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Do you know when the old covenant given in Sinai did vanish or dissapear?

The purpose of God’s sacrificial and ceremonial law was to present Christ Jesus to the world in a hands-on, direct way.

No it was to lead the Jews alone who were under Law to Christ. The Law was a teacher - thats all!

It was a continual prophecy of years to come to testify of Him that would die. I am not ignorant of the reason of the ceremonial law.

After this interesting statement where you agree the ceremonial law simply could not be continued you now aim to seperate and divide up those Laws you "like" and discard those you see as no longer appropriate.

This is another mistake on your part.

However, the 10 Commandments are not the ceremonial laws.

So what you are saying here is the 10 commandments had nothing to do with the ceremonial Law?

The hole you are digging is growing larger as we proceed through the post.

The process of being reconciled to God after breaking the Law has nothing to do with the commandments.

The 10 Commandments are the Holy Precepts of the Creator God. All 10 Commandments are supposed to be kept by the Christian.

No - a change to these commandments took place in Christ.

But you teach a return to what Paul calls the beggarly elements.

Gal 4:7Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

I can only reiterate Pauls words in Gal 4:11

11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain

Can you explain to me why the Law of Moses incluiding the 10 commandments were weak and beggarly? In what way did God make them weak? And why is Paul afraid for you in trying to live according to Law and not Grace and Mercy?

Much for you to consider.

The 10 Commandments did not, and shall not pass away. Who would believe that “Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not worship idols, Thou shalt have no other gods before me, thou shalt not take the Lord’s name in vain, honour thy father and mother, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not bear false witness, thou shalt not covet” have passed away?

The Spirit has been revealed and now the Law is no longer required - it did it job and completed its task though most of Israel were not teacheable.

Some like Mary, Elizabeth and the disciples search the Law to find the one who would remove the judgements of the written code from their lives.

They have not, they are the moral law, the moral standard in which all Christians are to live and keep. The problem then, lies with the Sabbath. The Sabbath Commandment was classed with the moral law, the 7th day Sabbath, and was not classed with the ceremonial laws.

You are chopping up the Law again...thought I would remind you!

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (Joh 13:34)

And yet the Law cursed Christ though he fulfilled every part of it. Its Sabbath he become its Lord. The sacrifices he fufilled every one perfectly. The 10 commandments he obeyed perfectly but still all that the Law was it still cursed him upon that tree.

This is why Jesus was born of a woman made under the Law for it was the Law he came to remove that the Spirit of the Law of liberity may be seen more clearly; one that could offer life to those who obeyed and not death.

God purposely put the 7th Day Sabbath in with the other commandments of God.

My comment still stands: you cannot murder people 24/7 and claim Christ as Lord. You cannot even be angry with your bother without cause, nor say “thou fool” to His brother continually, unrepentantly, willingly.

See how you tried to bring together the written law with the Spirit?

It doesnt work does it? What need is there for "you cannot murder people 24/7 and claim Christ as Lord" if you follow with "You cannot even be angry with your bother without cause, nor say “thou fool” to His brother continually, unrepentantly, willingly"

If that which is first is the later and was always in the mind of God from the beginning why go back to that which cannot save?

Your understanding is in reverse!

Christ is first and everything is made around him...

Let me ask you a question.

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(Gal 3:19)

• Look up the word "added" and tell us what it means and how it applies to Pauls teaching
• Explain what precisely was the Law added too?
• How does the word "till" affect your understading of the Law (including the 10 commandments)
• Who is the seed?

Look forward to hearing your findings.

You keep the letter of the law, not murdering people, and you keep the spirit of the law, refusing to be angry with your brother without cause.

You cannot keep the letter - sorry!

Okay, faith in Christ is what saves you. But, if you claim you have faith in Christ, but continually break the commandment of stealing, do not your own works deny that you have faith in Christ? How can you tell a Christian from the world? By their fruits, correct? If a Christian shows the fruit of continually stealing purposely and willfully and said, “My faith is what saves me, not my works”, do not the man’s own works deny that He has faith in Jesus Christ? Christ made us free from the bondage of sin. The 10 Commandments tell you what sin is. Christ released you from being a servant to sin, and you have then become a servant of righteousness. By calling Jesus Christ Lord, yet bearing the fruits of Satan, does it show that you are actually a Christian? See then, the works of the man deny that He has faith in Jesus Christ.

I think you are beginning to see you are going in circles and getting nowhere.

The law, which is established, is not the ceremonial law. Or else we would have to still perform sacrifices, would we not?

The Law contains everything written or orally given at Sinai.

Romans 6:1-2,14-16 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Can a Christian continue to break the law of God, though they are under grace? No, of course not. How can any Christian continue to live in sin, if they are dead to sin? If a Christian yields himself to continually murder and slander, and steal from his brethren, he then becomes a servant of unrighteousness (the leader there being Satan), but if a Christian does not break the law of God, his fruits show that he is a Christian, and not a leader of unrighteousness.

We have been brought into a relationship of service which requires obedience of the heart, not merely obedience of ritual (Rom 6:17).

Being under divine grace provides a great advantage in the fight of faith, for whereas the law (All the handwritings) condemns and strengthens the hold of sin by making it obvious when disobedience occurs, divine grace provides forgiveness and breaks the control of sin unto ultimate victory.

When Paul claims that we "are not under law" (note, there is no definite article "the" in the Greek), he does not discount the Mosaic Law as worthless, for although its curse has been removed in Christ (Col 2:14), its figures, types and principles of teaching remain. A spiritual warrior will observe the benefits to be gained by the instruction of the Law (Gal. 3:24), and allow its illustrations to find effect in life. By that means the Law drives us to appreciate the gift of grace.

"That the law is spiritual"

The law reveals the "mind of the spirit" (See Rom 8:27). The Greek word is pneumatikos, which signifies belonging to or proceeding from the Spirit; thus it expresses the divine mind. In the same sense the meat, water and rock of the wilderness were "spiritual" (1 Cor 10:3-4); they were designed to teach spiritual principles and lessons. Similarly, the law was given that men might perceive the divine mind in the issues of life. As such the law elevates the human mind to higher principles than otherwise perceived (Isa. 55:8-9). Hence the law was an expression of the thoughts and mind of Yahweh. Because of its origin, and in view of that which it expresses, the law must be "spiritual". So Paul states this foundation principle for the dramatic and irrefutable statement which follows.

Of course Paul personally goes on to show you how his carnal nature could not keep the Law as he was sold under sin.

What you need to remember is the "good thing" being the Law did not bring death, it was sin which brought death

The "good thing" revealed sin for what it is, and has shown why man is held captive to death. The very excellence of God's law demonstrated the flesh as extremely evil and worthy of death. The fault was not in the law; it was in Paul's own sinful propensities, which he proceeds to enumerate in Rom 7:15-20

However it stands, the Law could not save - another Law was required and I look forward to hearing you speak to this Law, rather than that which perished and faded away.

TGG

 

[Trekson]

Hi Raeneske, And all I'm saying is that same faith enables me to keep the sabbath on a daily basis as it was intended and live by the law of liberty that Christ so wonderfully gives us. My heart is His temple and the Holy of Holies abides with me 24/7. There is nothing that one specific set aside day can do to improve my relationship with God. All we're saying is that the freedom of the law that Christ provided us enables to worship Him on all days of the week, not just one and the fact of that opportunity is all the law of the sabbath foreshadowed. Israel did not have God in their hearts as we do and that makes all the difference in the world regarding the sabbath.

 

[Raeneske]

Hi Raeneske, And all I'm saying is that same faith enables me to keep the sabbath on a daily basis as it was intended and live by the law of liberty that Christ so wonderfully gives us. My heart is His temple and the Holy of Holies abides with me 24/7. There is nothing that one specific set aside day can do to improve my relationship with God. All we're saying is that the freedom of the law that Christ provided us enables to worship Him on all days of the week, not just one and the fact of that opportunity is all the law of the sabbath foreshadowed. Israel did not have God in their hearts as we do and that makes all the difference in the world regarding the sabbath.

Trekson,

The misunderstanding here is the explanation of keeping the Sabbath. You said the Spirit enables you to keep the Sabbath 24/7. Now, please try to understand here, it’s not that you cannot worship God any day of the week. As we can take a look in the Old Testament, that was not the only day they chose to worship God, or even pray to God for that matter. Daniel happened to pray 3 times a day (Very wise to do, I might add).

Daniel 6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

No one here is stopping the worship of anyone. That’s not the issue here. Those who go to church on Sunday do so, yet they can still find time to worship and pray to God other days of the week right? So can a Sabbath-Keeper. The argument that “I can worship God any day of the week” is correct. We worship God every single day, Sunday keepers and Sabbath-Keepers alike. The difference is not that. It is keeping the Sabbath Commandment. That is the huge issue.

Now, you said you keep the Sabbath every single day of the week. That’s not physically possible. Those who understand the principles of the Sabbath understand there was no secular work to be done. Do you not do any secular work 7 days a week? Do you not do any of your own pleasures during the week? Of course you do, and so do I. For instance, I recently got a keyboard to practice with. This is a favorite thing to do of mine. If I said I kept the Sabbath 7 days a week, I could not enjoy that hobby of mine. It’s the same with everyone else.

Now, with some understanding of the Sabbath, we have to also look at Christ’s teachings. We know that he never taught the Sabbath was gone. As a matter of fact, Jesus protected the Sabbath from desecrated in an overly stupid manner. Like refusing to heal the man on Sabbath that was clearly in desperation? They weren’t in harmony with the Sabbath to begin with. So their sitting around, thinking they were keeping it was completely wrong. Now the problem with, is if people think Christ broke it. Christ showed that He did work on the Sabbath. But in what manner? In a spiritual manner. He healed people on the Sabbath, He brought people to repentance, He showed there was no problem in taking care of basic human needs. This was in complete harmony with why people got the rest in the first place. The Sabbath was made for man, that he could rest from his labors.

Now the law of liberty which you mentioned, is the 10 Commandments, as it is called in James Chapter 2 verse 12. You are free to worship God when you want. However, God still has the Sabbath Day that He set apart for man to keep. And this is what we want people to look at. No one is denying your right to worship God freely. But, we are saying you have an obligatory duty on the 7th Day which God has given to mankind.