Sabbath

[Thegoodground]

Sunday keepers and Sabbath-Keepers alike. The difference is not that. It is keeping the Sabbath Commandment.

Once again you show your lack of wisdom.

Sunday is not a "kept" day. It’s a day of remembrance and nothing more and is able to be kept any day.

After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. (1Co 11:25)

You keep introducing legalism thinking it can be harmonized with a sincere and willing heart.

You simply have no understanding.

The commandment was taken out of the way because it told a person to mourn, to rest, to offer, to pray but now in Christ one can freely do all of these out of the abundance of their heart.

It's very sad you cannot see this.

TGG

 

[Raeneske]

Again you say this while holding to a written code.


Can you show us where Christ gave the 10 commandments to obey? But lets start with the fourth shall we?


Not at all, just responding to your foolishness which it appears was foolish of me.

Will we see humility from you or justification?


You seem to forget "all men a liars" your point is mute in support of keeping a written code that God took out of the way in His Son.


You are like a reed blowing in the wind.

Here is what you wrote "But, how can you claim Christ as Lord, when you continue to trample upon the Holy Precepts of God?"

Who is the you?


No. Jesus Christ shows you how to do that.

Its new becuase he was the only one to fulfill all the law and the prophets, hence why the Law is completely removed from Jew and never offered to the Gentile, though the Spirit of the Law continues in Christ.

By the way your ref to Rom 13 any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Can you please show me in the Law where this command was given as a written Law?

"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"


So do you believe that in keeping "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" you are keeping the written Law and all its requirements?


True, the 10 commandments are perfect and holy but now replaced entirely with two great commandments not writtin in stone but upon hearts.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Do you know when the old covenant given in Sinai did vanish or dissapear?



No it was to lead the Jews alone who were under Law to Christ. The Law was a teacher - thats all!


After this interesting statement where you agree the ceremonial law simply could not be continued you now aim to seperate and divide up those Laws you "like" and discard those you see as no longer appropriate.

This is another mistake on your part.



So what you are saying here is the 10 commandments had nothing to do with the ceremonial Law?

The hole you are digging is growing larger as we proceed through the post.

The process of being reconciled to God after breaking the Law has nothing to do with the commandments.


No - a change to these commandments took place in Christ.

But you teach a return to what Paul calls the beggarly elements.

Gal 4:7Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

I can only reiterate Pauls words in Gal 4:11

11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain

Can you explain to me why the Law of Moses incluiding the 10 commandments were weak and beggarly? In what way did God make them weak? And why is Paul afraid for you in trying to live according to Law and not Grace and Mercy?

Much for you to consider.


The Spirit has been revealed and now the Law is no longer required - it did it job and completed its task though most of Israel were not teacheable.

Some like Mary, Elizabeth and the disciples search the Law to find the one who would remove the judgements of the written code from their lives.



You are chopping up the Law again...thought I would remind you!

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (Joh 13:34)

And yet the Law cursed Christ though he fulfilled every part of it. Its Sabbath he become its Lord. The sacrifices he fufilled every one perfectly. The 10 commandments he obeyed perfectly but still all that the Law was it still cursed him upon that tree.

This is why Jesus was born of a woman made under the Law for it was the Law he came to remove that the Spirit of the Law of liberity may be seen more clearly; one that could offer life to those who obeyed and not death.



See how you tried to bring together the written law with the Spirit?

It doesnt work does it? What need is there for "you cannot murder people 24/7 and claim Christ as Lord" if you follow with "You cannot even be angry with your bother without cause, nor say “thou fool” to His brother continually, unrepentantly, willingly"

If that which is first is the later and was always in the mind of God from the beginning why go back to that which cannot save?

Your understanding is in reverse!

Christ is first and everything is made around him...

Let me ask you a question.

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(Gal 3:19)

• Look up the word "added" and tell us what it means and how it applies to Pauls teaching
• Explain what precisely was the Law added too?
• How does the word "till" affect your understading of the Law (including the 10 commandments)
• Who is the seed?

Look forward to hearing your findings.



You cannot keep the letter - sorry!


I think you are beginning to see you are going in circles and getting nowhere.


The Law contains everything written or orally given at Sinai.


We have been brought into a relationship of service which requires obedience of the heart, not merely obedience of ritual (Rom 6:17).

Being under divine grace provides a great advantage in the fight of faith, for whereas the law (All the handwritings) condemns and strengthens the hold of sin by making it obvious when disobedience occurs, divine grace provides forgiveness and breaks the control of sin unto ultimate victory.

When Paul claims that we "are not under law" (note, there is no definite article "the" in the Greek), he does not discount the Mosaic Law as worthless, for although its curse has been removed in Christ (Col 2:14), its figures, types and principles of teaching remain. A spiritual warrior will observe the benefits to be gained by the instruction of the Law (Gal. 3:24), and allow its illustrations to find effect in life. By that means the Law drives us to appreciate the gift of grace.

"That the law is spiritual"

The law reveals the "mind of the spirit" (See Rom 8:27). The Greek word is pneumatikos, which signifies belonging to or proceeding from the Spirit; thus it expresses the divine mind. In the same sense the meat, water and rock of the wilderness were "spiritual" (1 Cor 10:3-4); they were designed to teach spiritual principles and lessons. Similarly, the law was given that men might perceive the divine mind in the issues of life. As such the law elevates the human mind to higher principles than otherwise perceived (Isa. 55:8-9). Hence the law was an expression of the thoughts and mind of Yahweh. Because of its origin, and in view of that which it expresses, the law must be "spiritual". So Paul states this foundation principle for the dramatic and irrefutable statement which follows.

Of course Paul personally goes on to show you how his carnal nature could not keep the Law as he was sold under sin.

What you need to remember is the "good thing" being the Law did not bring death, it was sin which brought death

The "good thing" revealed sin for what it is, and has shown why man is held captive to death. The very excellence of God's law demonstrated the flesh as extremely evil and worthy of death. The fault was not in the law; it was in Paul's own sinful propensities, which he proceeds to enumerate in Rom 7:15-20

However it stands, the Law could not save - another Law was required and I look forward to hearing you speak to this Law, rather than that which perished and faded away.

TGG

Of course I say faith saves you while holding onto a “written code” as you would call it. Thegoodground, you hold onto the “new commandment” do you not? So, why is that not a written code? What, because God said He would put the laws within our hearts? As I have pointed, Paul shows you that to keep the 10 Commandments is to love your neighbor and God with all your heart soul and mind. Please refer to Romans 13:8-10.

Where did Jesus tell us to keep the commandments, starting with the fourth?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And if you have read what I have said thus far, you will see that “Love God with all your heart soul and mind” and “Love thy neighbor as thyself” are but summaries of the 10 Commandments. And Paul explained that. So, when Jesus gave the “new” commandment, it is shown that it is not a new commandment at all. Even John explained that. What’s new, is the understanding of keeping the commandments of God.

When I speak in my answers, when I say you it is not always directed at you the person. It’s like if someone were speaking to a friend about a situation and they go, “How can you say you didn’t run across the street when I saw you run! You know what I mean man?” It is not in essence referring to you specifically. As I said, it seems like this is getting too personal.

You’re right Jesus shows you how to love God and your neighbor. And what did Jesus do?

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus kept the 10 Commandments, so you’re right Jesus does show you how to love your neighbor as yourself, and how to love God with all your heart soul and mind.

Okay, so Paul said it is a briefly comprehended as “Love thy neighbor as thyself”. The fact that he says it is briefly comprehended as such, proves that it’s not written in there like that. A brief comprehension is just that – a brief way to say something. It is a summary of the commandments.

I would like to you to please look at the 10 commandments, scratch that, I would like you to please look at 9 of the commandments, and tell me that they aren’t eternal realities. Now please look at the ceremonial law, and tell me how they ended at the cross. That’s the issue. The eternal realities are being blended with the covenant at Mount Sinai.

Galatians 4:7 does not refer to the 10 Commandments as bondage. But, you must first look at the 10 commandments, and the ceremonial law and realize the separation between the two. If you do not see the separation of the two, all verses speaking about the law will bring you to thus conclude that there was only one law, and thus toss the 10 commandments out.

Christians can keep the letter of the law. Christ made us free from sin and death, and He has made you free, “you shall be free indeed.” When Christ abides in your heart, a change comes about you. And thus, you can keep the law. What, do you think I mean me on my own? As if. I couldn’t keep the spirit or even the letter for that matter without Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is in you keeping the law for you, it’s nothing to do with my own merits.

Paul said we are not under the law, but Paul also said directly after saying that, that though you are not under the law you may not sin. And sin is the transgression of the law. Paul has already stated, though you are not under the law, you have no license to break it.

Once again you show your lack of wisdom.

Sunday is not a "kept" day. It’s a day of remembrance and nothing more and is able to be kept any day.

After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. (1Co 11:25)

You keep introducing legalism thinking it can be harmonized with a sincere and willing heart.

You simply have no understanding.

The commandment was taken out of the way because it told a person to mourn, to rest, to offer, to pray but now in Christ one can freely do all of these out of the abundance of their heart.

It's very sad you cannot see this.

TGG

Obedience isn’t legalism. And if keeping the 10 Commandments of God gets me called a legalist, then so be it.

Is it wrong to break any of the other 9 commandments? Is it wrong to murder? Is it wrong to steal? Is it wrong to take the Lord’s name in vain?

Of course it is. Yet, somehow people say it’s not wrong to break the Sabbath.

It wasn’t classed with the moral law on a mere whim by God. He knew what He was doing classing the 7th Day Sabbath with the Moral Law.

 

[Thegoodground]

Of course I say faith saves you while holding onto a “written code” as you would call it. Thegoodground, you hold onto the “new commandment” do you not? So, why is that not a written code? What, because God said He would put the laws within our hearts? As I have pointed, Paul shows you that to keep the 10 Commandments is to love your neighbor and God with all your heart soul and mind. Please refer to Romans 13:8-10.

Correct - but he does not show you how to keep a set of ordinances that command you to abstain, or do this or do that.

Like Paul has taught you:

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (Col 2:14)

What does it mean to blot something out?

Okay, so Paul said it is a briefly comprehended as “Love thy neighbor as thyself”. The fact that he says it is briefly comprehended as such, proves that it’s not written in there like that. A brief comprehension is just that – a brief way to say something. It is a summary of the commandments.

"It is briefly comprehended in this saying"

Here Paul directs you to the Word of God in (Lev. 19:18). Paul is proving the Law of Moses show us we have continuing obligations towards one another. "Namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself" and is only repeating the words of the Master from Mat. 22:39 & Mk. 12:31.

The word "comprehended" is from the Gr. anakephalaiomai, which indicates to sum up; to gather together in one (cp. Eph.1:10).

The meaning is emphasised: if we love our neighbor (the "other" of Rom 13:8) we will not offend against him in any way. So you are right in stating Paul is providing a summation of the Law, but is he enforcing the Law of Moses? As a set of written commands to be strictly followed?

Absolutely not!

As I continue to show you Pauls teaching.

"And he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard (it)" Rom 14:6

Here Paul is saying he does not observe specific days, realising that the sacrifice of Christ has removed "the law of ordinances" (Col. 2:13-17 & Eph. 2:11-22), and that such formalism as you seem to desire is not essential to salvation.

He goes on to show you the dietry concerns of the Law.

"He that eateth, eateth to the Lord"

There were dietary instructions of the Law, and the scruples that a Jewish believer might have concerning clean and unclean meats (see Acts 10:14). However, for whatever reason, the believer might wish to exercise discretion concerning that which he eats, and this is to be accepted, provided that the matter does not become a principle essential to belief and salvation.

Your persistant instruction to keep a day falls on deaf ears and rightly so.


The conclusion written by Paul to both the strong and weak brother.

Rom 14:8

"For"

This should resonate with everyone in this forum, if they hold truth.

Paul proceeds to elaborate upon this principle (in the above post) and to emphasize the importance of recognising our responsibility to uphold the status and work of the Lord, and not to merely parade our own supposed righteousness (See Mat. 23:5).

"Whether we live, we live unto the Lord"

The "strong" brother believes he has liberty to eat or regard every day as equal in his worship before God. He exercises that liberty as a means of emphasising his responsibility to the Truth, by
determining, in whatever he allows himself, to always bear in mind the requirements of Christ's disciples, and to uphold and glorify God in the freedom he enjoys.

"And whether we die, we die unto the Lord"

In the restrictions a "weak" disciple might impose upon himself, he must recognise that his sacrifice of freedom and his "keeping" of certain days as more sacred than others, must be an act of service to Christ. The Truth must be elevated in such sacrifices.

"Whether we live therefore, or die"

Paul revealed both attitudes in his service, being prepared to "die daily" (1 Cor. 15:31) and to be "crucified with Christ" and yet be able to say: "nevertheless, I live" (Gal. 2:20), for he enjoyed a freedom
from the demands of the Law, and yet recognised the need for discipline in life.

"We are the Lord's"

A simple expression, but of profound significance, and one we must never forget. Whatever our decision in regard to meats or days, we must always uphold the superior position of the Master, and the conscience of other brethren & sisters. Being his servants, our actions must conform to his will, and honor his status (See Phil. 4:8; Col. 3:17, 23). How can we allow ourselves to become diverted from the main purpose of the Truth in our lives by concentrating thoughts and actions upon unimportant matters? Christ has not only rescued us from the effects of sin and death, he has claimed us for his own. We belong to him (1 Cor. 3:23), and are responsible to fulfil his will in our lives.

Now whether one decides to be either "strong" or "weak", Paul has settled the matter conclusively in Christ.

TGG.

p.s I forgot to preface my remarks by saying the Law was only "ever" given to the Jews and never intended for Gentiles, so the believer who decides to practice the Law (keeping of days) in place of the Gospel will be treading under foot the righteouness of God as revealed in the Son.

 

[mjrhealth]

The LAW does one thing, condemns you of sin,Jesu did not die for you so you could be condmend of your sin..

In all His Love


I cannot think of any simpler way to put this,



LAW I GRACE
SIN I JESUS
DEATH I LIFE

Is it not written,


Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Which side of the fence will you choose.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In all His Love

 

[Raeneske]

Correct - but he does not show you how to keep a set of ordinances that command you to abstain, or do this or do that.

Like Paul has taught you:

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (Col 2:14)

What does it mean to blot something out?


"It is briefly comprehended in this saying"

Here Paul directs you to the Word of God in (Lev. 19:18). Paul is proving the Law of Moses show us we have continuing obligations towards one another. "Namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself" and is only repeating the words of the Master from Mat. 22:39 & Mk. 12:31.

The word "comprehended" is from the Gr. anakephalaiomai, which indicates to sum up; to gather together in one (cp. Eph.1:10).

The meaning is emphasised: if we love our neighbor (the "other" of Rom 13:8) we will not offend against him in any way. So you are right in stating Paul is providing a summation of the Law, but is he enforcing the Law of Moses? As a set of written commands to be strictly followed?

Absolutely not!

As I continue to show you Pauls teaching.

"And he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard (it)" Rom 14:6

Here Paul is saying he does not observe specific days, realising that the sacrifice of Christ has removed "the law of ordinances" (Col. 2:13-17 & Eph. 2:11-22), and that such formalism as you seem to desire is not essential to salvation.

He goes on to show you the dietry concerns of the Law.

"He that eateth, eateth to the Lord"

There were dietary instructions of the Law, and the scruples that a Jewish believer might have concerning clean and unclean meats (see Acts 10:14). However, for whatever reason, the believer might wish to exercise discretion concerning that which he eats, and this is to be accepted, provided that the matter does not become a principle essential to belief and salvation.

Your persistant instruction to keep a day falls on deaf ears and rightly so.


The conclusion written by Paul to both the strong and weak brother.

Rom 14:8

"For"

This should resonate with everyone in this forum, if they hold truth.

Paul proceeds to elaborate upon this principle (in the above post) and to emphasize the importance of recognising our responsibility to uphold the status and work of the Lord, and not to merely parade our own supposed righteousness (See Mat. 23:5).

"Whether we live, we live unto the Lord"

The "strong" brother believes he has liberty to eat or regard every day as equal in his worship before God. He exercises that liberty as a means of emphasising his responsibility to the Truth, by
determining, in whatever he allows himself, to always bear in mind the requirements of Christ's disciples, and to uphold and glorify God in the freedom he enjoys.

"And whether we die, we die unto the Lord"

In the restrictions a "weak" disciple might impose upon himself, he must recognise that his sacrifice of freedom and his "keeping" of certain days as more sacred than others, must be an act of service to Christ. The Truth must be elevated in such sacrifices.

"Whether we live therefore, or die"

Paul revealed both attitudes in his service, being prepared to "die daily" (1 Cor. 15:31) and to be "crucified with Christ" and yet be able to say: "nevertheless, I live" (Gal. 2:20), for he enjoyed a freedom
from the demands of the Law, and yet recognised the need for discipline in life.

"We are the Lord's"

A simple expression, but of profound significance, and one we must never forget. Whatever our decision in regard to meats or days, we must always uphold the superior position of the Master, and the conscience of other brethren & sisters. Being his servants, our actions must conform to his will, and honor his status (See Phil. 4:8; Col. 3:17, 23). How can we allow ourselves to become diverted from the main purpose of the Truth in our lives by concentrating thoughts and actions upon unimportant matters? Christ has not only rescued us from the effects of sin and death, he has claimed us for his own. We belong to him (1 Cor. 3:23), and are responsible to fulfil his will in our lives.

Now whether one decides to be either "strong" or "weak", Paul has settled the matter conclusively in Christ.

TGG.

p.s I forgot to preface my remarks by saying the Law was only "ever" given to the Jews and never intended for Gentiles, so the believer who decides to practice the Law (keeping of days) in place of the Gospel will be treading under foot the righteouness of God as revealed in the Son.

You continue to call the 10 Commandments, the ordinances, which were written down in the ceremonial law. They are not the same thing, and this is what I’m trying to tell you. The Moral Law is not the ceremonial law. One is completely eternal, and shall last for all eternity, one was there until the seed should come.

Your statements are confusing. You asked if Paul was setting a command strictly to be followed. Yes, he was explaining the words of Jesus, thus pointing out that there is a law still to be followed. Paul explained, in the summary, that the 10 Commandments are what Jesus was referring to. Not the ceremonial law, as that means the ceremonial law would still be enforced.

Again, the days contained in ordinances was found in the ceremonial law, so I agree with that. What I do not agree with, is with throwing the entire 10 Commandment Law within the ceremonial law. They are not the same thing, they are different.

If you have agreed that persistent instruction has fallen on “deaf ears” and that you shall not listen, then by all means, you may ignore me. But I shall not stop defending the Lord’s Day.

The LAW does one thing, condemns you of sin,Jesu did not die for you so you could be condmend of your sin..

In all His Love


I cannot think of any simpler way to put this,



LAW I GRACE
SIN I JESUS
DEATH I LIFE

Is it not written,


Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Which side of the fence will you choose.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In all His Love

Do you really believe Christ died so you can: Worship other Gods, worship idols, take the Lord’s name in vain, dishonor your parents, murder people, commit adultery, steal, lie, and covet?

Is that why Jesus died, so you can be freed from being obedient to all that?

 

[Thegoodground]

You continue to call the 10 Commandments, the ordinances, which were written down in the ceremonial law. They are not the same thing, and this is what I’m trying to tell you. The Moral Law is not the ceremonial law. One is completely eternal, and shall last for all eternity, one was there until the seed should come.

I now speak to you as the "weak" believer whom Paul referred to in Rom 14.

Here is a simple question:

Were the 10 commandments proclaimed to the people at Sinai the basis of the Covenant God entered into with Israel?

Yes or No?

If you answer no, what was the basis of the convenant?

If yes, you must explain Heb 8:13

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:13)

The 10 commandments / old covenant eventually vanished away!

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel (future) after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Heb 8:10)

Do you believe God will use the Law of Moses / Old Covenant / Sabbath Law etc to write these in their hearts or something else? If not, what?

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (Heb 8:6)

What makes the New Covenant better than the covenant based on the 10 commandments?

Conclusion:

If you did answer no, that the Old Covenant is not based on the 10 commandments then you would also believe the New Covenant is not based on the New commandments of Christ?

Either way you are in a bind.

TGG

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Raeneske


You did understand this in regards to keeping of days? Right? You understand what Paul is teaching in Rom 14:6-8?

I would like to hear your compliance to Pauls words concerning the Lord in heaven, who needs not acknowedge the keeping of days, even if some like yourself strive to keep them.

I wouldnt have you ignorant of the truth concerning feasts and days.

TGG

 

[Raeneske]

I now speak to you as the "weak" believer whom Paul referred to in Rom 14.

Here is a simple question:

Were the 10 commandments proclaimed to the people at Sinai the basis of the Covenant God entered into with Israel?

Yes or No?

If you answer no, what was the basis of the convenant?

If yes, you must explain Heb 8:13

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:13)

The 10 commandments / old covenant eventually vanished away!

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel (future) after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Heb 8:10)

Do you believe God will use the Law of Moses / Old Covenant / Sabbath Law etc to write these in their hearts or something else? If not, what?

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (Heb 8:6)

What makes the New Covenant better than the covenant based on the 10 commandments?

Conclusion:

If you did answer no, that the Old Covenant is not based on the 10 commandments then you would also believe the New Covenant is not based on the New commandments of Christ?

Either way you are in a bind.

TGG

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Raeneske


You did understand this in regards to keeping of days? Right? You understand what Paul is teaching in Rom 14:6-8?

I would like to hear your compliance to Pauls words concerning the Lord in heaven, who needs not acknowedge the keeping of days, even if some like yourself strive to keep them.

I wouldnt have you ignorant of the truth concerning feasts and days.

TGG

I need to know what you mean by basis TGG. If you only mean, are the 10 Commandments in the Old Covenant, then yes, just like they are in the New Covenant. But first let's see what you mean.

 

[Thegoodground]

I need to know what you mean by basis TGG. If you only mean, are the 10 Commandments in the Old Covenant, then yes, just like they are in the New Covenant. But first let's see what you mean.

Whether they are "in" or "are" the basis God of the Old Covenant it matters not. The truth is they people agreed to His Commands and entered an agreement on that basis.

You need to answer the above post in relation to the Old Covenant and its basis vanishing away.

TGG

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Raeneske

The Ten Commandments provided the basis of the Mosaic Covenant (See Deut 4:13; 1 Kings 8:9,21; Heb 9:4). They introduced a new (but now old) social order in Israel based upon worship of God, and thoughtful consideration of others. This was further amplified in the statutes that were introduced to the people at the same time (Deut 4:14).

having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.

cmp

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Heb 8:13

Tablets of the Covenant = 10 commandments

If you believe the same 10 commandments as were written on two tablets of stone currently form the basis of the New Covenant you have some explaining to do. Firstly, the commandments when broken were punishable by death - do you kill people for breaking the sabbath as the man picking up sticks? Num 15:32.

You need to accept the spirit of the 10 commandments were keep alive in the ministry of Christ however the legal required is now been abolished. I am trying to get you to see the Spirit not the letter. You grasp the letter very well as did the Pharisees and Saducees but the Spirit of the Law they failed terribly.

TGG

 

[mjrhealth]

Do you really believe Christ died so you can: Worship other Gods, worship idols, take the Lord’s name in vain, dishonor your parents, murder people, commit adultery, steal, lie, and covet?

Is that why Jesus died, so you can be freed from being obedient to all that?

Why Raenseke are you so fixated on sin, this is what the law does, it convinces the sinner of sin. but now we walk in Love, and so tell me what has love got to do with worshipng idols, taking the Lords name in vain, etc etc, Love says .I wont do it, it does not require the LAW to walk in love. If you are so convinced of sin you are not under grace, what is it you do not understand ??

In all His Love

 

[Raeneske]

Why Raenseke are you so fixated on sin, this is what the law does, it convinces the sinner of sin. but now we walk in Love, and so tell me what has love got to do with worshipng idols, taking the Lords name in vain, etc etc, Love says .I wont do it, it does not require the LAW to walk in love. If you are so convinced of sin you are not under grace, what is it you do not understand ??

In all His Love

Love has everything to do with it. You don't love God, if you're going around and worshipping idols, and taking his name in vain every place. There is no love without any actions proving your love. Love knows not to do it because the law is written in the heart. And if the law is there, then it still exists, whether written on stone, or in your heart, the law still exists. The 10 Commandments, in stone, are supposed to be written within your heart. It's the law written in you, not to keep the law. And why won't you do them? Because you love God and your neighbor. Your love will compel you to keep the law. Love has everything to do with that law.

Your a human, and i'm human. We all are. Our love therefore is determines by our own standards as a human being. However, those standards must change upon meeting God. There are souls that think it's okay to fornicate because they love one another. What's even stranger, is some of these are Christians. The heart is wicked and deceitful. The laws which God writes upon our hearts, first need to be heard from God. His 10 Commandments are the basis of our love towards God and towards our fellow man. We need those commandments to tell us how to love, we need His guidance to do all those things which are pleasing to God. The Law of God, must needs be written upon the tablets of the human heart. To toss away the entire 10 Commandments, is to toss away love. The law is not sin, the law condemns sin. The law shows you what sin is, but it also transcripts God's perfect unchangeable character. We are to be made back into that image, and it starts thus by faith. And by faith then Christ imputes his righteousness to us, and then makes us obediant people.

Can you please answer my question? Do you love God and your neighbour if you're continually, constantly, willingly transgressing 9 of those 10 Commandments?

--------

And for TGG, i'll respond when I get back to a computer.

 

[John_8:32]

Why Raenseke are you so fixated on sin, this is what the law does, it convinces the sinner of sin. but now we walk in Love, and so tell me what has love got to do with worshipng idols, taking the Lords name in vain, etc etc, Love says .I wont do it, it does not require the LAW to walk in love. If you are so convinced of sin you are not under grace, what is it you do not understand ??

In all His Love

Sorry, but I just can't let this one go...

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[Raeneske]

Whether they are "in" or "are" the basis God of the Old Covenant it matters not. The truth is they people agreed to His Commands and entered an agreement on that basis.

You need to answer the above post in relation to the Old Covenant and its basis vanishing away.

TGG

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Raeneske

The Ten Commandments provided the basis of the Mosaic Covenant (See Deut 4:13; 1 Kings 8:9,21; Heb 9:4). They introduced a new (but now old) social order in Israel based upon worship of God, and thoughtful consideration of others. This was further amplified in the statutes that were introduced to the people at the same time (Deut 4:14).

having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.

cmp

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Heb 8:13

Tablets of the Covenant = 10 commandments

If you believe the same 10 commandments as were written on two tablets of stone currently form the basis of the New Covenant you have some explaining to do. Firstly, the commandments when broken were punishable by death - do you kill people for breaking the sabbath as the man picking up sticks? Num 15:32.

You need to accept the spirit of the 10 commandments were keep alive in the ministry of Christ however the legal required is now been abolished. I am trying to get you to see the Spirit not the letter. You grasp the letter very well as did the Pharisees and Saducees but the Spirit of the Law they failed terribly.

TGG

Revelation 14:12 - Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The 10 Commandments were not just the basis, permeating itself through the old covenant law. The 10 Commandments have always been the basis of life, the moral standard at which God holds men, angels, and all His creatures to hold. Even Psalm 103:20 shows you that angels are commandment keepers (the good ones, anyways). The 10 Commandments in fact, also find themselves in the New Testament, and the New Covenant. Blinded by carnal minds, men have difficulty discerning to true spiritual nature of the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments, were set up to defend society, and prevent ourselves from harming God, and causing harm to humanity. What has passed away is not the requirements of the 10 Commandments, but rather what has passed away was the ceremonial practices within the Old Covenant. The difference lies where God has written the 10 Commandment law.

Hebrews 9:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

What your post is leading to, TGG, is to do away with the old covenant and the basis of the laws. Such an attempt would seriously demoralize Christianity, and even humanity. Removing laws such as, “thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness” would never be gone on a government level (at least, in a just government), and God certainly himself would not remove His 10 Commandments from us. The accusation, “you cannot keep the letter”, is simply that. An accusation. I will agree, I cannot keep the letter ever, by my own, for my own sake, but the Lord Jesus can keep the law inside of me, as He is fully able to make me a servant of righteousness, instead of a servant of sin. Will you tell a man who has not by the letter murdered a man, unable to keep the letter? It simply does not make any sense. While the Old Covenant has passed, and the new covenant has come into play, take note that the same 10 Commandments you are saying have passed away, have been proven to take place in the New Covenant:


Commandment # 1
Exodus 20:3
Matthew 4:10
Commandment # 2
Exodus 20:4-6
1John 5:21 & Acts 17:29
Commandment # 3
Exodus 20:7
1Timothy 6:1
Commandment # 4
Exodus 20:8-11
Hebrews 4:4,8,9 (The word "rest" in verse #9 = "sabbatismo" = "A keeping Sabbath" in Strong's #4520
Commandment # 5
Exodus 20:12
Matthew 19:19
Commandment # 6
Exodus 20:13
Romans 13:9
Commandment # 7
Exodus 20:14
Matthew 19:18
Commandment # 8
Exodus 20:15
Romans 13:9
Commandment # 9
Exodus 20:16
Romans 13:9
Commandment # 10
Exodus 20:17
Romans 7:7

Courtesy of a brother in the faith

Your assertion is very plain. That everything from the Old Covenant has passed away, including the 10 Commandments. But simply because the 10 Commandments were found in the past, and to be regarded in the old covenant, never made them disappear from the New Covenant. The same basis, life permeating principles still apply to this very day. They have not been done away with, they are still in existence as we speak. What I would like to get you to see is that there is a difference between the 10 Commandments and the ceremonial law. The 10 Commandments have clearly carried over into the New Testament, with the same force, yet higher standards, than the Old Testament.

Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

The Lord did in fact magnify His law, instead of abolishing the law. Christ made it plain about not coming to destroy the law of His Father. He came to fulfill the law, the same way that His love within us will have us fulfill the law. How is it fulfilled? In one word. Love. Yet that one word is not to say the 10 Commandments don’t matter. That one word show you how to keep the 10 Commandments. You keep the 10 Commandments, because you love your neighbor, and you love God.

 

[Thegoodground]

Revelation 14:12 - Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The 10 Commandments were not just the basis, permeating itself through the old covenant law. The 10 Commandments have always been the basis of life, the moral standard at which God holds men, angels, and all His creatures to hold.


Even Psalm 103:20 shows you that angels are commandment keepers (the good ones, anyways). The 10 Commandments in fact, also find themselves in the New Testament, and the New Covenant. Blinded by carnal minds, men have difficulty discerning to true spiritual nature of the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments, were set up to defend society, and prevent ourselves from harming God, and causing harm to humanity. What has passed away is not the requirements of the 10 Commandments, but rather what has passed away was the ceremonial practices within the Old Covenant. The difference lies where God has written the 10 Commandment law.

Hebrews 9:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


What your post is leading to, TGG, is to do away with the old covenant and the basis of the laws. Such an attempt would seriously demoralize Christianity, and even humanity. Removing laws such as, “thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness” would never be gone on a government level (at least, in a just government), and God certainly himself would not remove His 10 Commandments from us. The accusation, “you cannot keep the letter”, is simply that. An accusation. I will agree, I cannot keep the letter ever, by my own, for my own sake, but the Lord Jesus can keep the law inside of me, as He is fully able to make me a servant of righteousness, instead of a servant of sin. Will you tell a man who has not by the letter murdered a man, unable to keep the letter? It simply does not make any sense. While the Old Covenant has passed, and the new covenant has come into play, take note that the same 10 Commandments you are saying have passed away, have been proven to take place in the New Covenant:


Commandment # 1
Exodus 20:3
Matthew 4:10
Commandment # 2
Exodus 20:4-6
1John 5:21 & Acts 17:29
Commandment # 3
Exodus 20:7
1Timothy 6:1
Commandment # 4
Exodus 20:8-11
Hebrews 4:4,8,9 (The word "rest" in verse #9 = "sabbatismo" = "A keeping Sabbath" in Strong's #4520
Commandment # 5
Exodus 20:12
Matthew 19:19
Commandment # 6
Exodus 20:13
Romans 13:9
Commandment # 7
Exodus 20:14
Matthew 19:18
Commandment # 8
Exodus 20:15
Romans 13:9
Commandment # 9
Exodus 20:16
Romans 13:9
Commandment # 10
Exodus 20:17
Romans 7:7

Courtesy of a brother in the faith

Your assertion is very plain. That everything from the Old Covenant has passed away, including the 10 Commandments. But simply because the 10 Commandments were found in the past, and to be regarded in the old covenant, never made them disappear from the New Covenant. The same basis, life permeating principles still apply to this very day. They have not been done away with, they are still in existence as we speak. What I would like to get you to see is that there is a difference between the 10 Commandments and the ceremonial law. The 10 Commandments have clearly carried over into the New Testament, with the same force, yet higher standards, than the Old Testament.

Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

The Lord did in fact magnify His law, instead of abolishing the law. Christ made it plain about not coming to destroy the law of His Father. He came to fulfill the law, the same way that His love within us will have us fulfill the law. How is it fulfilled? In one word. Love. Yet that one word is not to say the 10 Commandments don’t matter. That one word show you how to keep the 10 Commandments. You keep the 10 Commandments, because you love your neighbor, and you love God.

The 10 Commandments legislated the Law and that law, including the Sabbath Law, is now done away with completely.

You go on and on and on about the Commandments when everyone agrees they are Holy and Good. However the moment you begin to speak of "keeping" a particular day you have moved away from the Gospel into Law.

Now if you would like to speak of principles, now that’s a different matter altogether, but refrain from speaking in terms of keeping a day or feast, you’re not a lawyer but a Christian.

TGG

p.s Still waiting on your understanding of Rom 14:6-8NET

 

[mjrhealth]

So Jesus was not the only one perfect enough to keep the Law.

I did not know that, there was Him and one other.

In all His Love

 

[John_8:32]

So Jesus was not the only one perfect enough to keep the Law.

I did not know that, there was Him and one other.

In all His Love

Hmmm, Christ said that you should become perfect...

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


Might I suggest to you that a study of the subject of what it means to be perfect is in order? It seems you do not understand it.

 

[Raeneske]

The 10 Commandments legislated the Law and that law, including the Sabbath Law, is now done away with completely.

You go on and on and on about the Commandments when everyone agrees they are Holy and Good. However the moment you begin to speak of "keeping" a particular day you have moved away from the Gospel into Law.

Now if you would like to speak of principles, now that’s a different matter altogether, but refrain from speaking in terms of keeping a day or feast, you’re not a lawyer but a Christian.

TGG

p.s Still waiting on your understanding of Rom 14:6-8NET

No, the Sabbath Day is not done away with. I stated in my previous post the 10 Commandments refound in the New Testament, including the Sabbath Day. What has passed away, are the ceremonial sabbaths. The ceremonial sabbaths have to do with meat and drink, not the 7th Day Sabbath. Read Leviticus 23:23-37, you will find 5 Sabbaths in 15 days. Automatically, that cannot be the 7th Day Sabbath. It is also noticed that those sabbaths are not the 10 Commandment law. This also puts difference between the Sabbath day and the sabbaths. The ceremonial sabbaths are that which were a shadow of things to come.

Now, Romans 14:6-8 shows that the Kingdom of God is not meat or drink. Please understand, this is the same as saying "meat or drink offerings", which you can find spoken of in Colossians, and in Leviticus 23:23-37. That has nothing to do with the 7th Day Sabbath. Please search within the Sabbath Day Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) to find out that there is no such mention within it. This is the difference. Because it uses the same word, "Sabbath", it is often tossing away the 4th Commandment. But the Bible does not toss away the 4th Commandment, ever. If you stay in context of the verses which many claim the 7th Day Sabbath is tossed away, you will find that it never reffered to the Sabbath instituted in Genesis, and classed with the Moral Law.

The moment one starts speaking of keeping a "day" other than the 7th Day Sabbath should be the issue. I have not said anything about being required to keep feast days, the ceremonial sabbaths. No one has to keep them. No, not one. The difference is, putting a difference inbetween the 10 Commadments, and the ceremonial law.

Thus keeping the particular day, is a neccesity as a Christian. A ceremonial day? No. The 7th Day Sabbath. Stay in context of scripture, and you will see the split.

 

[mjrhealth]

2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
2Co 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Enough Said, this is going no where.

The religious did not listen when He was here and they still will not listen, glorying in there own works. And Christ says to us all,

" My grace is sufficient for you all".

In all His Love

 

[John_8:32]

2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
2Co 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Enough Said, this is going no where.

The religious did not listen when He was here and they still will not listen, glorying in there own works. And Christ says to us all,

" My grace is sufficient for you all".

In all His Love

And this is referring to?

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

This is an infirmity specific to Paul, he asked for God's intervention three times and God's answer was "My grace is sufficient for thee". This was directed at Paul, you are pulling this completely out of context and meaning.

 

[mjrhealth]

Yes John,

for those under the Law there is no grace. It is not God's choice but yours.

In all His love.

 

[Thegoodground]

No, the Sabbath Day is not done away with.

Those who understand Rom 14 and seek not to wrest its meaning as you clearly do believe that the Lord Jesus Christ made a major difference with reference to this commandment in that He never prescribed the keeping of the fourth commandment, whenever an opportunity of describing what commandments to keep were presented.

Clearly Jesus and Paul were of one mind that they expected everyone to keep every day alike.

Does it bother you Christ not once spoke concerning the Sabbath?

Have you not read about taking up your cross daily? Or do you put it down on Saturdays?

8 Beware lest any man (Raeneske) spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Sabbath days = all of them!

Imagine if you said verse 16 does not include "the" Sabbath?

What you are saying is the following verse does not apply to "the" Sabbath when in fact "the" Sabbath is one of the great shadow types of the Kingdom age.

Careful reading is required and not the defending of church teaching.

In Romans 14:5-6 which says:

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. (Romans 14:5-6, KJV).

Again, we have no charge to keep the sabbath day, but a warning about making ANY issue about ANY day by anybody, thus this statement actually goes completely against the position of those who want to establish Saturday, or for that matter Sunday, as a sabbath day.

There is a grave warning within Rom 14:4-6 as Raeneske is acting contrary to the Spirit which Paul speaks.

So two warning points to consider:

1. you are enforcing the Sabbath which is contrary to God's teaching in Rom 14:4-6.
2. Changing the Word in support of error leaves you in darkness concerning truth.

TGG