Sabbath

[John_8:32]

Those who understand Rom 14 and seek not to wrest its meaning as you clearly do believe that the Lord Jesus Christ made a major difference with reference to this commandment in that He never prescribed the keeping of the fourth commandment, whenever an opportunity of describing what commandments to keep were presented.

Clearly Jesus and Paul were of one mind that they expected everyone to keep every day alike.

Does it bother you Christ not once spoke concerning the Sabbath?

Have you not read about taking up your cross daily? Or do you put it down on Saturdays?

8 Beware lest any man (Raeneske) spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Sabbath days = all of them!

Imagine if you said verse 16 does not include "the" Sabbath?

What you are saying is the following verse does not apply to "the" Sabbath when in fact "the" Sabbath is one of the great shadow types of the Kingdom age.

Careful reading is required and not the defending of church teaching.

In Romans 14:5-6 which says:

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. (Romans 14:5-6, KJV).

Again, we have no charge to keep the sabbath day, but a warning about making ANY issue about ANY day by anybody, thus this statement actually goes completely against the position of those who want to establish Saturday, or for that matter Sunday, as a sabbath day.

There is a grave warning within Rom 14:4-6 as Raeneske is acting contrary to the Spirit which Paul speaks.

So two warning points to consider:

1. you are enforcing the Sabbath which is contrary to God's teaching in Rom 14:4-6.
2. Changing the Word in support of error leaves you in darkness concerning truth.

TGG

Romans 14 eh?

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

What is the subject here? Vegetarianism.

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

A day, any day, nothing matters? What is the real subject here?

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

The real subject here is setting aside a particular day for fasting.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

Now having seen that, let's go back up to...

Here is the real substance of Romans 14...

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

The subject of Romans 14 is judging others on the basis of what is put into the mouth and on what day one chooses to eat or fast. This chapter is not about the Sabbath.

 

[Raeneske]

Those who understand Rom 14 and seek not to wrest its meaning as you clearly do believe that the Lord Jesus Christ made a major difference with reference to this commandment in that He never prescribed the keeping of the fourth commandment, whenever an opportunity of describing what commandments to keep were presented.

Clearly Jesus and Paul were of one mind that they expected everyone to keep every day alike.

Does it bother you Christ not once spoke concerning the Sabbath?

Have you not read about taking up your cross daily? Or do you put it down on Saturdays?

8 Beware lest any man (Raeneske) spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Sabbath days = all of them!

Imagine if you said verse 16 does not include "the" Sabbath?

What you are saying is the following verse does not apply to "the" Sabbath when in fact "the" Sabbath is one of the great shadow types of the Kingdom age.

Careful reading is required and not the defending of church teaching.

In Romans 14:5-6 which says:

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. (Romans 14:5-6, KJV).

Again, we have no charge to keep the sabbath day, but a warning about making ANY issue about ANY day by anybody, thus this statement actually goes completely against the position of those who want to establish Saturday, or for that matter Sunday, as a sabbath day.

There is a grave warning within Rom 14:4-6 as Raeneske is acting contrary to the Spirit which Paul speaks.

So two warning points to consider:

1. you are enforcing the Sabbath which is contrary to God's teaching in Rom 14:4-6.
2. Changing the Word in support of error leaves you in darkness concerning truth.

TGG

Christ's teachings taught that the law was never done away with, not one jot or tittle was to change. Doing away with the 4th Commandment, is changing one of the commandments.

The Sabbath is not contrary to the Biblical teachings, you are taking the verses completely out of context. Those verses are not speaking of the 7th Day Sabbath.

Again, find within the 7th Day Sabbath Commandment the reference to meat, and drink please. Holy days? New moons? The context of scripture is not speaking of the 7th Day Sabbath.

Christ's teachings showed the enforecement of the 7th Day Sabbath, but gave a greater light on how it was to be kept. Christ clearly talked about the Sabbath, mostly when contending with the Pharisees. Christ showed that the sabbath was made for man. How can that be a shadow?

How can the cross be put down on Saturday's? What, because you take a physical rest, you're putting down the cross? Sorry, but no. Do you put it down cause you go to sleep at night? When one rests all day, they must be putting down the cross? Nope.

Again, you take the word "Sabbath" and attribute it to every single one, when that clearly is not the context of scripture. The 7th Day Sabbath was never included in that verse, and neither was it in Romans either. Stay in context, and that's how you'll see what Sxripture is talking about. There is nothing for me to consider on your "warnings". Pulling the verses completely out of context does not support your point - at all.

So, must we keep the Sabbath? Yes.

1) Christ taught not one jot or tittle would change. So, how can you say it changed and passed away?
2) The Sabbath was made for man, not a shadow of what was to come. So, how can you claim it was a shadow of things to come?
3) Christ taught His disciples to pray that their flight wouldn't have to be on the Sabbath Day, when fleeing Jerusalem. So, how can you think the followers of Jesus never had to keep it.
4) John the Revelator also kept the Sabbath, clearly understanding it's eternal realities. So, how come it is said we must keep every part of the Mosaic Law when John clearly kept the Sabbath? He knew he didn't have ro keep the Mosaic Law.

Hebrews 4:4,8,9 is where the restatement of the Sabbath Commandment is. Sorry, but it is clearly still in effect, and pulling verses which speak not of the 7th Day Sabbath classed in the Moral Law, but the laws, commands and days found in the Mosaic Law in an attempt to do away with the 7th Day Sabbath violates the Word of God.

 

[mjrhealth]

Explain to all of us Reaneske, what does keeping the law do for you.

It does not save you.
It diesnt please God, it is with faith we please God.
it does condemn you because that is what it was meant to do, to remind you of the sinner you are.
it does bring death for there is no other payment as when you are under the law you have forsaken grace, its one or the other.
Jesus will not help you keep the law, He already paid the price, He isnt going to do it again.

Everything you speaks Judges you as being under the law, what makes you think one cannot behave them selves without it.. We are all sinners, teh Law will not stop you, we break them everyday, that is our flesh it wil do that till we die or Jesus changes us when He returns, whichever comes first.

And when you stand before Jesus, boast as you will and say" but I kept the law", and He wil say, " and I offered you grace".

In all His Love

 

[Raeneske]

Explain to all of us Reaneske, what does keeping the law do for you.

It does not save you.
It diesnt please God, it is with faith we please God.
it does condemn you because that is what it was meant to do, to remind you of the sinner you are.
it does bring death for there is no other payment as when you are under the law you have forsaken grace, its one or the other.
Jesus will not help you keep the law, He already paid the price, He isnt going to do it again.

Everything you speaks Judges you as being under the law, what makes you think one cannot behave them selves without it.. We are all sinners, teh Law will not stop you, we break them everyday, that is our flesh it wil do that till we die or Jesus changes us when He returns, whichever comes first.

And when you stand before Jesus, boast as you will and say" but I kept the law", and He wil say, " and I offered you grace".

In all His Love

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

A Christian will keep the Commandments of God, and they will have the faith in Jesus Christ. The Saints are described as those who are having both attributes, and not only one single attribute. What does keeping the Commandments do for you? Well certainly, there is now way to save yourself by keeping the law. But, what does the Word of God say about those who keep the commandments of God?

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It makes us know, that we are blessed when we do keep the Commandments of God. It lets us know, that the love of God dwells within us.

John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Jesus does help you keep the law: that sounds strange to say He shall not do it again. Jesus has always kept His Father’s Commandments. What reason would Jesus stop worshipping only His Father, or to not murder mankind, or even angels? Christ keeps the law continually, He has not a reason to break the law. He was perfect, and His perfection did only start on this planet. It shall continue for all eternity. He who kept His Father’s Commandments, will bring you to keep His Father’s Commandments. To break the commandments, it to be a servant of sin. If you are not a servant of sin, then you will strive to keep the Commandments. There is no two ways about it, you are breaking the Commandments of God purposely and being a slave to sin and Satan, or you are a servant of righteousness, keeping the commandments of God. We know that we love God, when we keep the Commandments of God. It is not grievous for a soul such as you or I to keep the commandments if the Love of God exists in our hearts.

No, such is not in my character, boasting to our Saviour that I have kept the law. There is no boast, I am blessed by His grace, which covered my sins, and saved me from my sins. We are all sinful men and women, however, accepting Christ brings about a change in your life. When you become a Christian, you are changed into a new creature. This new creature has the ability, because of Jesus Christ, and by no merits of human so called “strength”, can keep the commandments of God.

 

[mjrhealth]

Cant fault your last post, it is not by the law we keep His commanments its by love, but that wont stop us breaking them, there is no man alive today who doesnt, thats why we have Grace, God knows we are not perfect but we wait for that day when we are as He is.

In All His Love


Did miss one bit though, teh Law is still not mine, it wasnt given to me, never was never wil be.



Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith

Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

In All His Love

 

[Raeneske]

Cant fault your last post, it is not by the law we keep His commanments its by love, but that wont stop us breaking them, there is no man alive today who doesnt, thats why we have Grace, God knows we are not perfect but we wait for that day when we are as He is.

In All His Love


Did miss one bit though, teh Law is still not mine, it wasnt given to me, never was never wil be.



Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith

Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

In All His Love

Of course you make mistakes and fall, but thats not what I'm saying. Because of your love you will keep the 10 Commandments. And Paul told you that you cannot break the law though you are now under grace. He also said, we cannot break it, so thaf grace may abound. They were serious about the fact that a Christian should do their best not to break that law, even though they're under grace. You are supposed to keep the law.

Now as for willfully breaking the law, that comes at a punishment of losing eternal life. How dare a Christian turn their back on the Commandments of God, when He just saved them from their sins? Willfully is knowing the commandment but going, "Eh, whatever" about it. He did not die that grace may abound, He died for our sins, and so we can be saved from our sins. Our characters are to constantly change everyday and we are to walk in harmony with God more and more everyday, striving unto that Perfection. Yes, that P word that everybody seems to hate. You strive to be like Christ, not so that you can save yourself, but becase you love Him, and want to be like Him.

 

[mjrhealth]

Cool now we agree. we must be careful about this LAW word, there are far to many Christians trying to live by it, seventh day adventist as such, i know one says he will be judged by the law and seems happy with it, cant convince him of the stupidity of it all.

In all His most abundant Love and Grace

 

[Raeneske]

Cool now we agree. we must be careful about this LAW word, there are far to many Christians trying to live by it, seventh day adventist as such, i know one says he will be judged by the law and seems happy with it, cant convince him of the stupidity of it all.

In all His most abundant Love and Grace

The point of this topic is to however show that the Sabbath Commandment is obligatory. While we are to love God, our love will manifest when we keep His Commandments. Purposely avoiding the Sabbath Commandment, is willful sin. That is the issue here. It was never whether we are saved by faith. We understand, the just shall live by faith. But with faith, we have not a license to willfully sin. Willfully transgressing any commandment of God brings trouble. We must not do such a thing. The 7th Day Sabbath is a commandment, that we are to keep.

 

[mjrhealth]

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

It was not a problem for Jesus, why is it such a problem for you. But if you choose to observe teh sabbath, do it for Jesus not because of the law.

In all His Love

 

[Thegoodground]

Romans 14 eh?

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

What is the subject here? Vegetarianism.

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

A day, any day, nothing matters? What is the real subject here?

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

The real subject here is setting aside a particular day for fasting.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

Now having seen that, let's go back up to...

Here is the real substance of Romans 14...

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

The subject of Romans 14 is judging others on the basis of what is put into the mouth and on what day one chooses to eat or fast. This chapter is not about the Sabbath.

Careful Bible reading will provide you with very carefully placed spiritual wisdom.

Romans 14:5,6,21 is beautifully placed within the record and for good reason.

Here Paul is stating rather clearly, a weaker brother may do something a stronger brother or sister decides against. You see the reason the weaker brother observes the day is immaterial. The point is that he observes the day. I see how you may have missed this point, but Paul wrote that Sabbath and Jewish feast day observances were matters of disagreement among Christians, as they are today..hence this thread. The Jewish believers tended to observe these and the Gentile believers did not. Why, becuase the Law including the Sabbtah Law was given to Jews alone. The observance of special days such as the Sabbath is a matter of indifference, personal preference. None may impose the keeping of days on another as a requisite to salvation:

And anyone who speaks of "wilful sin" concerning failure to keep a day is acting completely against the Spirit of Pauls teaching; against truth.

Supporting text: Gal 4:10,11; Gal 5:1-4; Col 2:13-17.

What we have here is a "weaker" believer trying to enforce a legal requirement upon "stronger" believers.

TGG.

 

[Raeneske]

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

It was not a problem for Jesus, why is it such a problem for you. But if you choose to observe teh sabbath, do it for Jesus not because of the law.

In all His Love

Sir, if you are declaring Jesus broke the Sabbath, you are declaring that He was in fact a sinner. It would make no sense for all the Jews to have to keep it, the Saviour come as a Jew, and then desecrate it.

Jesus was showing that there was nothing wrong with satisfying their hunger (you know, basic human needs) on the Sabbath. Something the Pharisees couldn't get past their legalistic traditions on the Sabbath.

Careful Bible reading will provide you with very carefully placed spiritual wisdom.

Romans 14:5,6,21 is beautifully placed within the record and for good reason.

Here Paul is stating rather clearly, a weaker brother may do something a stronger brother or sister decides against. You see the reason the weaker brother observes the day is immaterial. The point is that he observes the day. I see how you may have missed this point, but Paul wrote that Sabbath and Jewish feast day observances were matters of disagreement among Christians, as they are today..hence this thread. The Jewish believers tended to observe these and the Gentile believers did not. Why, becuase the Law including the Sabbtah Law was given to Jews alone. The observance of special days such as the Sabbath is a matter of indifference, personal preference. None may impose the keeping of days on another as a requisite to salvation:

And anyone who speaks of "wilful sin" concerning failure to keep a day is acting completely against the Spirit of Pauls teaching; against truth.

Supporting text: Gal 4:10,11; Gal 5:1-4; Col 2:13-17.

What we have here is a "weaker" believer trying to enforce a legal requirement upon "stronger" believers.

TGG.

Last time I checked, this section was about doubtful disputations. Keeping the commandments of God (the 7th Day Sabbath) is not a doubtful disputation. So again, we run into verses pulled out of context to support what you are preaching.

There are different types of sabbaths, just like there are different types of wines, and meat has different meanings. The spiritual discernment is needed in regards to all that.

Sabbath (s) -
1) 7th Day Sabbath.
2) Ceremonial sabbaths (feast days)

Wine -
1)Fermented Wine
2) Unfermented wine, (also called "new wine" which is grape juice)

Meat
1) Meat, real meat
2) Food, in the basic sense of the word.

It's like, the word gay now has two meanings. At first, it just meant happy, but now it also means homosexual.

What your arguments do not discern, is the difference between the 7th Day Sabbath classed with the Moral law, and the sabbaths within the ceremonial law. You are therefore classing both definitions with your interpretations. This is an error. I urge you, reread the verses and information you are taking out of context, and please put them back in context. Leviticus 23:23-37 will show you the sabbaths in the ceremonial law. Exodus 20:8-11 will show you the 7th Day Sabbath. The 7th Day sabbath is not mentioned anywhere in the verses you have given.

Again, if John the Revelator kept it, and understood that we did not have to keep the rest of the ceremonial law, if Hebrews 4:4,8, & 9 can show you there still remains a Sabbath for us to keep, and Jesus told you not one jot or tittle should change, then there is clearly still a Sabbath to keep for the children of God. Which one? The only one not ever mentioned when they were speaking of nailing the ordinances to the law. How do you find out which one? Read scripture in context.

 

[Thegoodground]

Again, if John the Revelator kept it, and understood that we did not have to keep the rest of the ceremonial law, if Hebrews 4:4,8, & 9 can show you there still remains a Sabbath for us to keep, and Jesus told you not one jot or tittle should change, then there is clearly still a Sabbath to keep for the children of God. Which one? The only one not ever mentioned when they were speaking of nailing the ordinances to the law. How do you find out which one? Read scripture in context.

Sorry I could not allow your gross misuse of Heb 4:4,8-9 go without providing a correct interpratation.

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. (Heb 4:8)

You would know that the Greek names for Joshua and Jesus are identical (and the KJV even translates "Jesus" here!), you could not have avoided the implicit contrast between the OT "Joshua" who failed to give rest (or at least, gave them only a temporary, conditional sort of rest) and the NT "Joshua" who brings the true, promised rest to his people. Although, it is not mentioned, it must be assumed that David's generation did not enter the promised rest -- or at least that if they in some sense did, it was not in the definitive sense in which the OT rest is available to those who enjoy the fulfillment brought by Christ.

Now if you believe a single sabbath day (Saturday) is the "actual" promised rest being referred to in the above words "another day later on" then once again we see you severely twisting the Scripture in support of your erronous doctrine.

So then, there remains (future) a Sabbath rest for the people of God, (Heb 4:9)

This word is different from the word used before; it is "sabbaton" -- which occurs only here in all the NT: the prophetical "rest" of the Sabbath-day (alluding back to Heb 4:3,4).

The 7th figurative "day" of 1,000 years (you ought to read 2 Pe 3:8 & Rev 20:4). and then Cp Heb 4:3

Therefore I leave you with the same message as Paul who also laboured every day to enter that promised rest.

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. (Heb 4:11)

True Sabbath rest hoped for by those truely in Christ

"They (saints) came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years"

TGG

 

[Warrior]

Can I like play video games or air hockey on the sabbath? Id like to think i can have at least one day for entertainment

 

[Raeneske]

Sorry I could not allow your gross misuse of Heb 4:4,8-9 go without providing a correct interpratation.

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. (Heb 4:8)

You would know that the Greek names for Joshua and Jesus are identical (and the KJV even translates "Jesus" here!), you could not have avoided the implicit contrast between the OT "Joshua" who failed to give rest (or at least, gave them only a temporary, conditional sort of rest) and the NT "Joshua" who brings the true, promised rest to his people. Although, it is not mentioned, it must be assumed that David's generation did not enter the promised rest -- or at least that if they in some sense did, it was not in the definitive sense in which the OT rest is available to those who enjoy the fulfillment brought by Christ.

Now if you believe a single sabbath day (Saturday) is the "actual" promised rest being referred to in the above words "another day later on" then once again we see you severely twisting the Scripture in support of your erronous doctrine.

So then, there remains (future) a Sabbath rest for the people of God, (Heb 4:9)

This word is different from the word used before; it is "sabbaton" -- which occurs only here in all the NT: the prophetical "rest" of the Sabbath-day (alluding back to Heb 4:3,4).

The 7th figurative "day" of 1,000 years (you ought to read 2 Pe 3:8 & Rev 20:4). and then Cp Heb 4:3

Therefore I leave you with the same message as Paul who also laboured every day to enter that promised rest.

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. (Heb 4:11)

True Sabbath rest hoped for by those truely in Christ

"They (saints) came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years"

TGG

Scripture is not referring to “Joshua” but to Jesus, the Son of God.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

So again, if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward had spoken of another day.

The word rest in Hebrews 4:9 is this one:
Sabbatismos
And that word bears the striking resemblance to the word SABBATH, and also bears the definition “a keeping Sabbath.”

Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Back in creation, is when God did rest from all His works, on the 7th Day, and in this place again, and it is limited to a certain day (Hebrews 4:7). The 7th Day is the limited certain day spoken of in this passage. If Jesus has given us rest, wouldn’t He have spoken of another day? Please find another day to keep the 7th Day Sabbath, as many Christians claim we shall be keeping in the 1000 years. Jesus did not change the Sabbath Day. Then there remains a Sabbath for us to keep, still. The fact that it remains denotes that it previously existed.

The fact that the 1,000 years rest mimics the creation week, should prove all the more reason on why we are keeping the Sabbath.

Also, scripture does not say, “another day later on”. I know other Bibles will point that out, as a common theological standpoint, to preach the Sabbath is gone, and that Jesus is the Sabbath, but that is not what scripture says. All the more reason to stick with the KJV, but that’s another topic for another time.

Let us labour therefore, so that we may all enter into rest. (6 days shalt thou labour), lest any man fall into the same example of unbelief.

Can I like play video games or air hockey on the sabbath? Id like to think i can have at least one day for entertainment

Isaiah 58:13-14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

I would not play video games, or air hockey on the Sabbath Day. There may be perfectly fine Bible games to play on the Sabbath, there is no objection to this. This day is all about God, and all about glorifying Him, and resting. You can take a nap, sleep in late, lay down and keep the mind stayed upon God, take a Sabbath walk in nature, do Bible studies, etc. All things shall relate to God.

 

[Thegoodground]

Scripture is not referring to “Joshua” but to Jesus, the Son of God.

:huh: Your understanding of Greek surpasses the translators?

Heb 4:8NIV
Heb 4:8ESV
Heb 4:8YLT
Heb 4:8RSV
Heb 4:8NET

Your dogmatism does not place you in a very good light, wouldn't you agree?

By the way did you notice after the writer had made their case for a Sabbath rest to come he introduces the Lord Jesus Christ with the concluding word.

"Therefore" or as your translation has it "seeing then"

Heb 4:14NET Therefore since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession

Why do you think David and Joshua were selected by the Holy Spirit in speaking of a future sabbath to come?

This question will test whether you are teacheable or otherwise....

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

So again, if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward had spoken of another day.

The word rest in Hebrews 4:9 is this one:
Sabbatismos
And that word bears the striking resemblance to the word SABBATH, and also bears the definition “a keeping Sabbath.”

I think people reading this will not understand your point?

It reads like you do not understand Heb 4 at all.

Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

You are jumping all over the place. Why dont you deal with the Scripture as it is presented?

If you believe God's promised rest is keeping a single day of the week why not just say so. Please do not use Heb 4 to support your error as Heb 4 is about a promised rest one that is not kept by law but received by promise.

Heb 4:1 is extremely clear in this regard.

This Chapter is all about the children of Israel including David and Joshua not entering that promised rest!

GOD's "rest", was sybolised in the house of rest for the glory of God's ark as seen in 1 Ch 28:2 & 2 Ch 6:41) also the house built in Zion in Psa 132:8-14), and later fulfillment in the Millennial Temple found in Isa 66:1: "house" = "rest" see Eze 43:8).

Your storey telling teaches all these symbols are fulfilled in Saturday keeping someone has led you astray.

I dont know who but guessing a church body or minister schooled in traditions of men.

Back in creation, is when God did rest from all His works, on the 7th Day, and in this place again, and it is limited to a certain day (Hebrews 4:7).

Let me ask you a question.

Where was Heb 4:7 cited?
Where did the writer use this phrase elsewhere in Hebrews?

When David said "today", did he mean only the Sabbath? Is this what you believe?

Lets see if you are able to open the Word of God and discover a true light; one that is lasting.

The 7th Day is the limited certain day spoken of in this passage. If Jesus has given us rest, wouldn’t He have spoken of another day? Please find another day to keep the 7th Day Sabbath, as many Christians claim we shall be keeping in the 1000 years. Jesus did not change the Sabbath Day. Then there remains a Sabbath for us to keep, still. The fact that it remains denotes that it previously existed.

This above explanation is poor exposition:

The writer introduces the Patriachs from Heb 4:1-8
The writer then introduces the conclusion in Heb 4:9
The writer then shows you how to enter the true and living Rest from Heb 4:10-13
The writer finally leads you to the 2nd Joshua in Heb 4:14-16

It is best you understand the flow of his argument before defending false doctrine.

The fact that the 1,000 years rest mimics the creation week, should prove all the more reason on why we are keeping the Sabbath.

Sorry - The rest which true disciples of Christ are labouring to enter is not held on Saturday's.

Heb 4:11 is not one day in the week...but every day is alike to those carrying their cross.

Also, scripture does not say, “another day later on”.

Whether it states another day "later on" or another day the point has already been made.

The rest entered into is by promise and not by keeping a day.

I know other Bibles will point that out, as a common theological standpoint, to preach the Sabbath is gone, and that Jesus is the Sabbath,

Well, he is the Lord of the Sabbath and those in him will find the rest by Him who made him Lord.

It is a little strange that you voice the truth and then seek to deny it...

but that is not what scripture says.

It does but what you mean "but that is not what I want the Scripture to say"

All the more reason to stick with the KJV, but that’s another topic for another time.

O dear - you didn't did you!

This response has gone from bad to worse.

Let us labour therefore, so that we may all enter into rest. (6 days shalt thou labour), lest any man fall into the same example of unbelief.

A fact you may not have considered is until Ex 20:8-11 was written, there is absolutely no reference to sabbath-keeping from creation until the giving of the law at Sinai.

Keeping of course the point Paul stated concerning the Law and to whom it was given.

Further to this important point we note what is said in Ex. 20:8-11:

Notice the distinction distinction between what is done on 6 days, referring to the requirement of the flesh and that which is done on the 7th day, which is the spiritual.

The question to all here in the forum is this - did the Lord Jesus Christ extend the sabbath day to include the whole week?

Does not the Lord Jesus Christ requires us to live EVERY day unto God and never serve the flesh.

In conclusion have you not read what Paul wrote to the believers at Corinth?

1 Cor. 15:46:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46, KJV).

I suggest you examine what this means in relation to the promised rest.

TGG

 

[Raeneske]

:huh: Your understanding of Greek surpasses the translators?

Heb 4:8NIV
Heb 4:8ESV
Heb 4:8YLT
Heb 4:8RSV
Heb 4:8NET

Your dogmatism does not place you in a very good light, wouldn't you agree?

By the way did you notice after the writer had made their case for a Sabbath rest to come he introduces the Lord Jesus Christ with the concluding word.

"Therefore" or as your translation has it "seeing then"

Heb 4:14NET Therefore since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession

Why do you think David and Joshua were selected by the Holy Spirit in speaking of a future sabbath to come?

This question will test whether you are teacheable or otherwise....



I think people reading this will not understand your point?

It reads like you do not understand Heb 4 at all.



You are jumping all over the place. Why dont you deal with the Scripture as it is presented?

If you believe God's promised rest is keeping a single day of the week why not just say so. Please do not use Heb 4 to support your error as Heb 4 is about a promised rest one that is not kept by law but received by promise.

Heb 4:1 is extremely clear in this regard.

This Chapter is all about the children of Israel including David and Joshua not entering that promised rest!

GOD's "rest", was sybolised in the house of rest for the glory of God's ark as seen in 1 Ch 28:2 & 2 Ch 6:41) also the house built in Zion in Psa 132:8-14), and later fulfillment in the Millennial Temple found in Isa 66:1: "house" = "rest" see Eze 43:8).

Your storey telling teaches all these symbols are fulfilled in Saturday keeping someone has led you astray.

I dont know who but guessing a church body or minister schooled in traditions of men.



Let me ask you a question.

Where was Heb 4:7 cited?
Where did the writer use this phrase elsewhere in Hebrews?

When David said "today", did he mean only the Sabbath? Is this what you believe?

Lets see if you are able to open the Word of God and discover a true light; one that is lasting.


This above explanation is poor exposition:

The writer introduces the Patriachs from Heb 4:1-8
The writer then introduces the conclusion in Heb 4:9
The writer then shows you how to enter the true and living Rest from Heb 4:10-13
The writer finally leads you to the 2nd Joshua in Heb 4:14-16

It is best you understand the flow of his argument before defending false doctrine.



Sorry - The rest which true disciples of Christ are labouring to enter is not held on Saturday's.

Heb 4:11 is not one day in the week...but every day is alike to those carrying their cross.



Whether it states another day "later on" or another day the point has already been made.

The rest entered into is by promise and not by keeping a day.


Well, he is the Lord of the Sabbath and those in him will find the rest by Him who made him Lord.

It is a little strange that you voice the truth and then seek to deny it...



It does but what you mean "but that is not what I want the Scripture to say"


O dear - you didn't did you!

This response has gone from bad to worse.


A fact you may not have considered is until Ex 20:8-11 was written, there is absolutely no reference to sabbath-keeping from creation until the giving of the law at Sinai.

Keeping of course the point Paul stated concerning the Law and to whom it was given.

Further to this important point we note what is said in Ex. 20:8-11:

Notice the distinction distinction between what is done on 6 days, referring to the requirement of the flesh and that which is done on the 7th day, which is the spiritual.

The question to all here in the forum is this - did the Lord Jesus Christ extend the sabbath day to include the whole week?

Does not the Lord Jesus Christ requires us to live EVERY day unto God and never serve the flesh.

In conclusion have you not read what Paul wrote to the believers at Corinth?

1 Cor. 15:46:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46, KJV).

I suggest you examine what this means in relation to the promised rest.

TGG

I never claimed to have an understanding of Greek that surpassed the translators. I also don’t care how many different Bibles used by theologians, and supposedly “doctors of divinity” would like to throw their life’s “job” in my face. Scripture is sound, and the twists of newer Bibles just proves that fact that one should not stray from sound scripture from God. Your conclusions are differently drawn from mine, you are using a different Bible than I. But like I said, another topic, for another time.

No one has claimed there isn’t a future rest to come. The 1,000 years, if you think about the 6000 year time of sin and then the 1000 year rest.

Jesus has given us rest, we shall rest in Him. But such a claim never destroyed keeping the Sabbath. I’m not sure if I have on this topic yet, but I can post many verses about people “receiving rest” and it never diminished from the fact that they still had to keep the 7th Day Sabbath.

Hebrews 4:9 shows that there still remains a Sabbath to the people of God. And in Hebrews 4:4 it still shows that God is referring to the 7th Day. We are to labour and then rest from our works as God did from His as is shown in Hebrews 4:10 & 11.

Hebrews begins by stating let us fear lest we fall short of coming into that rest. Yes, there is a rest at the end, this is not an issue. However, it also shows that God spake according to the 7th Day on this wise. Then scripture continues and shows why we should be keeping the Sabbath, lest we become an example of unbelief. Keeping the 7th Day Sabbath mirrors the 1000 year rest as well. However, the 7th Day Sabbath will be kept for eternity, because it is classed with the Moral Law. Not a single thing would change in that law, as Jesus said. Yet here I am still being told that the law did change. Either it changed, or it didn’t. He also said He did not do away with the law. Either it’s still there, or it’s gone. God’s rest here is according to the rest performed in Genesis, in creation week as Hebrews 4:3-4 show you.

Now it seems that David was saying “to-day harden not your hearts” as in hear the voice of God today day. This seems to be the day that it is limited to, today hear God’s voice. Yes, this is different than what my post said before, looking at the verse seems that it seems like David is actually saying, that today, the people of God need to listen, and decide not to harden their hearts.

So today if you will listen, harden not your heart. For if Jesus had given us rest, wouldn’t He also have spoken of another day? There remaineth therefore a keeping Sabbath to the people of God. The fact that there is still a blessed rest for Christians has not changed, there is such still. But there still remains a keeping Sabbath to Christians, the 7th Day Sabbath. That is why Hebrews 4:10-11 then states that we that enter into the rest we also do cease from our works as God did from His. When did God cease from His own works? The 7th Day Sabbath. (Hebrews 4:5 and in this place again if they shall enter into my rest. In this place is where we are to enter into our rest. Hebrews 4:11, let us labour as God did, 6 days of work, one rest lest anyone become an example of unbelief. Likewise, let us continue daily growing in Christ, unto the very end.

I do voice the truth, but I do not voice what you believe. And if you understood what went on, on the Sabbath, you would also see the Sabbath Commandment is not only a physical rest. That’s why there is a spiritual nature inside the Sabbath Commandment. Not doing our own work, but not even our own pleasure. It is a day for God, where you worship God the entire day, and glorify Him. You do not work at your job, or play video games, or watch any television. You are spiritually refreshed as well. The Sabbath is not only a commandment for the flesh.

 

[Thegoodground]

I never claimed to have an understanding of Greek that surpassed the translators.

You claimed to assume an interpretation without considering the context of the passage. If you had known the writer was speaking to the patriarch’s maybe the truth of the passage would be accepted however you have already “made up your mind".

I also don’t care how many different Bibles used by theologians, and supposedly “doctors of divinity” would like to throw their life’s “job” in my face.

So you believe the KJV is the only inspired Bible? With no translatory errors? And that you never, no not once refer to a Scripture from another version or translation?

I think this is called hypocrisy.

Scripture is sound, and the twists of newer Bibles just proves that fact that one should not stray from sound scripture from God.

In Heb.4:8 the KJV notes Jesus as not giving the wilderness wanderers under Moses a spiritual rest in faith. Scholars reject use of Jesus in this verse, for the Greek (Iesous) corresponds to Joshua’s Hebrew name (Yeshua). Early-church elders (ECF) understood the passage to refer to Christ (no doubt twisting it for their trinity doctine),but scholars today say Jesus in the passage is the historical Joshua, showing that they miss the teaching.

The passage suggests to scholars Joshua leading his people to eventual rest in Canaan, a people whose faithlessness stresses a greater spiritual rest of faith for God’s people.

It is without doubt you also believe this to be true, that Joshua was in fact the one who lead the poepel into Canaan, but due to the hardness of your heart, like those in Israel, you have chosen a well trodden path, which leads to great error.

Your conclusions are differently drawn from mine, you are using a different Bible than I.

Not so I use the KJV as its my marking Bible.

But like I said, another topic, for another time.

No one has claimed there isn’t a future rest to come.

That's right - Heb 4 is speaking to that rest.

The 1,000 years, if you think about the 6000 year time of sin and then the 1000 year rest.

Jesus has given us rest, we shall rest in Him. But such a claim never destroyed keeping the Sabbath.

Correct!

It expanded it to precisely what David said "Today" or everyday listen else you will harden your heart. The lesson is a good one for you to learn and very relevant in this thread.

I ask you a question which came back void.

Heb 4:7KJV
Heb 3:7KJV
Psa 95:1KJV

Teach me what these verses mean to you and you sabbath. Why is the writer so interested in Psalm 95 quoting extensively from this Psalm?

I’m not sure if I have on this topic yet, but I can post many verses about people “receiving rest” and it never diminished from the fact that they still had to keep the 7th Day Sabbath.

No sorry - the keeping of days was given under the Law as you have quoted many times and yet nowhere can you provide a command before the Law or after the Law.

Not one Scripture...if anything the Word speaks against your position.

Hebrews 4:9 shows that there still remains a Sabbath to the people of God.

Yes to be entered into upon the Lord's return...to those who labour to enter "today"!

And in Hebrews 4:4 it still shows that God is referring to the 7th Day.

Yes, quoted from Gen 2:2, which now Jesus has been made Lord over, who will offer too if one walks daily and hardens not their hearts as those Sabbath keepers did in the desert.

We are to labour and then rest from our works as God did from His as is shown in Hebrews 4:10 & 11.

You speak as a law keeper.

Hebrews begins by stating let us fear lest we fall short of coming into that rest. Yes, there is a rest at the end, this is not an issue. However, it also shows that God spake according to the 7th Day on this wise.

You dont get it do you.

For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. (Heb 4:4)

The word "day" is not in the original transcripts

But it matters not if it were.

The seventh day became under the Law an expression for rest however when the true rest came that old expression is not longer required in like manner to the all the Law and ordinances.

Then scripture continues and shows why we should be keeping the Sabbath, lest we become an example of unbelief.

The Scripture shows one must understand the labouring both God and Christ performed to achieve that promised rest, to which many now labour daily to enter.

Keeping the 7th Day Sabbath mirrors the 1000 year rest as well.

Correct and now the mirror is no longer required becuase Christ is that mirror - why not try looking into that image and see what you find.

Mark 2:27,28KJV

Can you explain to use how the Sabbath was made for man and not the other way around?

What is Christ teaching here.

However, the 7th Day Sabbath will be kept for eternity, because it is classed with the Moral Law.

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. (Gal 4:9-10)

Not a single thing would change in that law, as Jesus said. Yet here I am still being told that the law did change. Either it changed, or it didn’t. He also said He did not do away with the law. Either it’s still there, or it’s gone. God’s rest here is according to the rest performed in Genesis, in creation week as Hebrews 4:3-4 show you.

Did the Law change?

And Jesus spake also a parable unto them;

No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.

And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
(Luk 5:36-39)

If the Law was removed in favour of a new garment and new wine skins why do you continue to do as Christ commanded against?

Now it seems that David was saying “to-day harden not your hearts” as in hear the voice of God today day.

Good so this is the first time I have seen you acknowledge Heb 4 is speaking to the context of every day.

Lets see how you progress shall we...

This seems to be the day that it is limited to, today hear God’s voice.

Yes - that is what David is saying in Psa 95

For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: (Psa 95:7-8)

So we have the context of the wilderness and Joshua leading them into Canaan though the promised rest was not recieved...though they kept a day.

Yes, this is different than what my post said before, looking at the verse seems that it seems like David is actually saying, that today, the people of God need to listen, and decide not to harden their hearts.

Wow.

Are we making progress?

So Heb 4:7,8 is actually speaking to every day.

So today if you will listen, harden not your heart. For if Jesus had given us rest, wouldn’t He also have spoken of another day?

Heb 4:8 For if Jesus (Joshua) had given them rest (i.e from wilderness to promised land), then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Exactly! Though they inherited a promised land they lost it through unbelief as prophesied.

And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. (Deu 28:64)

There remaineth therefore a keeping Sabbath to the people of God. The fact that there is still a blessed rest for Christians has not changed, there is such still. But there still remains a keeping Sabbath to Christians, the 7th Day Sabbath.

Keeping to the context of David in Psalm 95 and Israel crossing the Jordan and entering the promised land they found no rest becuase they could not overcome the giants in the land.

So what does the writer state?

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (Heb 4:9)

That rest was not the Sabbath they failed to uphold in the desert!

That rest is one to come with the advent of the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is why Hebrews 4:10-11 then states that we that enter into the rest we also do cease from our works as God did from His. When did God cease from His own works? The 7th Day Sabbath.

Wrong!

If you actualy understood the significance of the Sabbath you would know their was no "day" when God rested.

Show me in Gen 2 where it states the morning and the evening was the seventh day?

Is there an end to the seventh day?

No!

Is there an end to the Sabbath in Jesus Christ?

NO!

Is there an end to the day that you keep every week?

YES!

I wonder why we are no longer required to keep a day.

(Hebrews 4:5 and in this place again if they shall enter into my rest. In this place is where we are to enter into our rest. Hebrews 4:11, let us labour as God did, 6 days of work, one rest lest anyone become an example of unbelief. Likewise, let us continue daily growing in Christ, unto the very end.

Lovely - you led us into the answer of Gen 2:2,3.

Work like Christ to enter a rest which is eternal not merely one day a week.

I do voice the truth, but I do not voice what you believe.

You have some truth in you but this weaker teaching is not of the Apostles doctrine.

And if you understood what went on, on the Sabbath, you would also see the Sabbath Commandment is not only a physical rest. That’s why there is a spiritual nature inside the Sabbath Commandment.

Yes - the spirital example of why the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath is what I am hoping you will eventually expound. But right now its all legal from my end.

Not doing our own work, but not even our own pleasure.

Ok - so this you say is only one day per week?

It is a day for God, where you worship God the entire day, and glorify Him. You do not work at your job, or play video games, or watch any television. You are spiritually refreshed as well. The Sabbath is not only a commandment for the flesh.

How is it possible for you to put forward a correct understanding of Heb 4:7, only to reject its message, harden your heart again, and go back to legalism?

How can you in all good conscience do that knowing the spirit of Davids message in Psalm 95 and then in Heb 4?

At least the Word has made you accountable and herewith has truth been revealed.

TGG

 

[John_8:32]

Careful Bible reading will provide you with very carefully placed spiritual wisdom.

Romans 14:5,6,21 is beautifully placed within the record and for good reason.

Here Paul is stating rather clearly, a weaker brother may do something a stronger brother or sister decides against. You see the reason the weaker brother observes the day is immaterial. The point is that he observes the day. I see how you may have missed this point, but Paul wrote that Sabbath and Jewish feast day observances were matters of disagreement among Christians, as they are today..hence this thread. The Jewish believers tended to observe these and the Gentile believers did not. Why, becuase the Law including the Sabbtah Law was given to Jews alone. The observance of special days such as the Sabbath is a matter of indifference, personal preference. None may impose the keeping of days on another as a requisite to salvation:

And anyone who speaks of "wilful sin" concerning failure to keep a day is acting completely against the Spirit of Pauls teaching; against truth.

And anyone who speaks of "wilful sin" concerning murder or adultery is acting completely against the Spirit of Pauls teaching; against truth?

Supporting text: Gal 4:10,11; Gal 5:1-4; Col 2:13-17.

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

You kind of left the context out, didn't you?

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

So before these folks were called and converted, they did service to those who were not gods. Now they were returning to weak and beggardly elements such as observing days, months, times and years. What were these?

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Not the law of God, rather the elements of the world. This is not a passage about the law of God, all one has to do is read the context. These folks were returning to pagan ways and practising syncretism.


Now...

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

What is the subject here? Circumcision! Does circumcision justify anyone? No. does this passage in any way say that the Ten Commandments are done away and that taking God's holy name in vain is acceptable? How about murder, adultery and lying? Paul is simply agreeing with James here that a Christian is not required to keep the ceremonial laws. Tell me about how lusting and murder are ceremonial laws. Of course they are not.


OK, how about Col 2:13-17, only difference is I am posting the context...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

So we are circumcised? Paul says we are here, just not according to the ceremonial law.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Bob Thiel does a very good treatment of Col 2:14...

It is of interest to note that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" is a Greek legal term that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--through Jesus the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"), not the law! "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them" (Heb 10:16).

Even Protestant commentators realize this. Notice what Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible states about Colossians 2:14:

Whatever was in force against us is taken out of the way. He has obtained for us a legal discharge from the hand-writing of ordinances, which was against us (v. 14), which may be understood,

1. Of that obligation to punishment in which consists the guilt of sin. The curse of the law is the hand-writing against us, like the hand-writing on Belshazzar's wall. Cursed is every one who continues not in every thing. This was a hand-writing which was against us, and contrary to us; for it threatened our eternal ruin. This was removed when he redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, Gal 3:13. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.).

Some will argue that you still cannot keep the ten commandments (for "all have sinned"), even if they are all mentioned as being in effect after the crucifixion. Does this mean one should not try?

Furthermore, let's look at another translation:

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:14, NASB)

The handwriting of requirements (often also called the hand-writing of ordinances) or certificate of debt was wiped away and nailed to the cross.

Which requirements were wiped out?

Please understand that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"). But only the penalty, not the law! - Dr. Robert Thiel

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Don't let anyone judge you for doing this. How do you construe that to mean it is done away?

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

These are still shadows of things to come. Now remember this was written over 20 years after everything was supposedly "nailed to the cross". The Holydays, New Moons and Sabbaths will be kept in the Millenium by flesh and blood people...

Holydays...

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

New Moons and Sabbaths...

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Now there are some things that this passage in Colossians tells us not to do...

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,


New Living Translation (©2007)
Don't let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud,

English Standard Version (©2001)
Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

Paul was combating ascetism with the Colossians. A little study of the context and some Bible helps reveals this quickly.




Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

When is God's Law EVER called rudiments of the world?

Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

What we have here is a "weaker" believer trying to enforce a legal requirement upon "stronger" believers.

TGG.

If your statements above are valid then let me submit a few (carefully lifted out of context and meaning)...

Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.


Actually what we have in the above post is one who is just misguided trying to apply some of Paul's writings incorrectly. One would hope 2 Pet 3:16 does not apply here.

 

[Axehead]

God, after the creating of the world in six days, entered into his rest;

Christ, when he had finished the work of our redemption, entered into his rest;
These are not only examples, but earnests, that believers shall enter into their rest:

After one believes and receives Christ they are to enter into His rest.

He that hath entered into rest hath also ceased from his own works as God did from his, Hebrews_4:10. Every true believer hath ceased from his own works of righteousness, and from the burdensome works of the law, as God and Christ have ceased from their works of creation and redemption.

We who have believed and received Christ have entered into this spiritual rest in grace (Now) and glory, hereafter.

Paul confirms the misery of those who do not believe; they shall never enter into this spiritual rest, either of grace here or glory hereafter.

"As sure as God has entered into his rest, so sure it is that obstinate unbelievers shall be excluded. As sure as the unbelieving Jews fell in the wilderness, and never reached the promised land, so sure it is that unbelievers shall fall into destruction, and never reach heaven. As sure as Joshua, the great captain of the Jews, could not give them possession of Canaan because of their unbelief, notwithstanding his eminent valour and conduct, so sure it is that even Jesus himself, and captain of our salvation, notwithstanding all that fullness of grace and strength that dwells in him, will not, cannot, give to final unbelievers either spiritual or eternal rest: it remains only for the people of God; others by their sin abandon themselves to eternal restlessness." Matthew Henry.

Spiritual rest in Christ has nothing to do with a day of the week, but can and should be entered into, everyday of the week, month and year.

That is why if you have to work at your job or are in prison, or in the hospital on Saturday or Sunday you can be there and yet still be in complete rest in Jesus Christ.

And that is because Jesus Christ is your true Sabbath Rest. Being "in Rest" is the difference between true "Belief" or "Unbelief". Being "in rest" is being "in Christ" and ceasing from your works of righteousness, laboring to enter into His Rest, because His Works of Righteousness is all that counts. He has done it all, now let His Spirit work inside you, producing the Fruit of the Spirit. The Fruit of the Spirit is only produced as you are entered into Rest and not by your own labors.

The fruit of the Spirit is not produced only on Saturday or Sunday for certain "day keepers".

We see that what God is really after is love and mercy and kindness.

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Mat_12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.


Mat_12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat_12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mat_12:9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
Mat_12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mat_12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

Mat_12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

There we have it my friends! Jesus Christ Himself says it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. And this agrees with what He said in Mat_12:7 that He would rather have mercy and not sacrifice and for any of us "Day Keepers" (like the Pharisees who were trying to trap Him) to stop condemning the guiltless. Don't you see how you are following in the Pharisees footsteps judging by appearance (on the outward)? May God open your eyes Raeneske. Unfortunately, your theology is tied to your church's traditions so you would have to go against your church's traditions if adopted God's point of view and this will be very hard to do because your church is your community. It is your life!

To God alone we each stand or fall. If someone has to work on Saturday or Sunday in order to "do well", then praise the Lord! Do it with all your heart and stay in the Lord's rest as you do it.


Axehead

 

[John_8:32]

God, after the creating of the world in six days, entered into his rest;

Christ, when he had finished the work of our redemption, entered into his rest;
These are not only examples, but earnests, that believers shall enter into their rest:

After one believes and receives Christ they are to enter into His rest.

He that hath entered into rest hath also ceased from his own works as God did from his, Hebrews_4:10. Every true believer hath ceased from his own works of righteousness, and from the burdensome works of the law,

Like not killing and remaining faithful to ones mate and not lying?

as God and Christ have ceased from their works of creation and redemption.

Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

We who have believed and received Christ have entered into this spiritual rest in grace (Now) and glory, hereafter.

Paul confirms the misery of those who do not believe; they shall never enter into this spiritual rest, either of grace here or glory hereafter.

"As sure as God has entered into his rest, so sure it is that obstinate unbelievers shall be excluded. As sure as the unbelieving Jews fell in the wilderness, and never reached the promised land, so sure it is that unbelievers shall fall into destruction, and never reach heaven. As sure as Joshua, the great captain of the Jews, could not give them possession of Canaan because of their unbelief, notwithstanding his eminent valour and conduct, so sure it is that even Jesus himself, and captain of our salvation, notwithstanding all that fullness of grace and strength that dwells in him, will not, cannot, give to final unbelievers either spiritual or eternal rest: it remains only for the people of God; others by their sin abandon themselves to eternal restlessness." Matthew Henry.

Nice, but you quoted Matthew Henry instead of Paul.

Spiritual rest in Christ has nothing to do with a day of the week, but can and should be entered into, everyday of the week, month and year.

When do you work?

That is why if you have to work at your job or are in prison, or in the hospital on Saturday or Sunday you can be there and yet still be in complete rest in Jesus Christ.

You apparently don't work for my employer.

And that is because Jesus Christ is your true Sabbath Rest. Being "in Rest" is the difference between true "Belief" or "Unbelief". Being "in rest" is being "in Christ" and ceasing from your works of righteousness, laboring to enter into His Rest, because His Works of Righteousness is all that counts. He has done it all, now let His Spirit work inside you, producing the Fruit of the Spirit. The Fruit of the Spirit is only produced as you are entered into Rest and not by your own labors.

No, Christ is not the Sabbath and He understood and taught this...

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

He said He was Lord of the Sabbath day, not that He was the Sabbath day.

The fruit of the Spirit is not produced only on Saturday or Sunday for certain "day keepers".

We see that what God is really after is love and mercy and kindness.

Yes and obedience...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

2Co 7:15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.

2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

and there are more.

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Because they are Sabbath keepers? Let's read this verse in context...

Isa 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

Here He is likening His people to rulers of Sodom and peoples of Gomorrah and telling them to give ear to His law.

Isa 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
Isa 1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

God is not after burnt offerings, He want's obedience...

Jer 7:21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and Your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Isa 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Why won't God hear?

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Isa 59:3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

In fact, read the whole of chapter 59 here.

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
Isa 1:22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
Isa 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Interesting, in verse 14 He calls them "your" Sabbaths. When He gave them, what did He call them?

Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

They had so polluted them, they could not be recognized as God's Sabbaths and Feast Days.

Mat_12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

Matthew Henry has some insight here...

The Jewish teachers had corrupted many of the commandments, by interpreting them more loosely than they were intended; a mistake which Christ discovered and rectified (ch. 5) in his sermon on the mount: but concerning the fourth commandment, they had erred in the other extreme, and interpreted it too strictly. Note, it is common for men of corrupt minds, by their zeal in rituals, and the external services of religion, to think to atone for the looseness of their morals. But they are cursed who add to, as well as they who take fRom. the words of this book, Rev_22:16, Rev_22:19; Pro_30:6.
Now that which our Lord Jesus here lays down is, that the works of necessity and mercy are lawful on the sabbath day, which the Jews in many instances were taught to make a scruple of. Christ's industrious explanation of the fourth commandment, intimates its perpetual obligation to the religious observation of one day in seven, as a holy sabbath. He would not expound a law that was immediately to expire, but doubtless intended hereby to settle a point which would be of use to his church in all ages; and so it is to teach us, that our Christian sabbath, though under the direction of the fourth commandment, is not under the injunctions of the Jewish elders.

Hmmm, might pay you to read Henry's commentary on Mat 12:1-13.

Mat_12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat_12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mat_12:9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
Mat_12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mat_12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

Mat_12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

There we have it my friends! Jesus Christ Himself says it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. And this agrees with what He said in Mat_12:7 that He would rather have mercy and not sacrifice and for any of us "Day Keepers" (like the Pharisees who were trying to trap Him) to stop condemning the guiltless. Don't you see how you are following in the Pharisees footsteps judging by appearance (on the outward)? May God open your eyes Raeneske. Unfortunately, your theology is tied to your church's traditions so you would have to go against your church's traditions if adopted God's point of view and this will be very hard to do because your church is your community. It is your life!

To God alone we each stand or fall. If someone has to work on Saturday or Sunday in order to "do well", then praise the Lord! Do it with all your heart and stay in the Lord's rest as you do it.


Axehead

According to you the ox in the ditch principle seems to apply to any who work on the Sabbath, every Sabbath.