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Its not the work of The Cross.
Can't you read?
What i said is that its Jesus's Finished work on The Cross.
So, the way that God applies the finished work of Jesus on The Cross, that is the New Covenant and the Blood Atonement.......Is.
"all who believe in Jesus shall be saved".
"""" God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.""
John 3:16
"Grace through Faith".. "without works or deeds of the Law".
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Yes.....Jesus was not a “Christian”.....he lived and died as a Jew. What he did was try to reintroduce the truth of God’s word to “the lost sheep” of that apostate nation. They had the Scriptures, but failed to live by them or to teach the correct interpretation of them. The violent opposition that Jesus and his disciples received, came from those who professed to worship the same God. But by their conduct they proved the exact opposite. We see exactly the same thing today.
There’s the mantra again as if it answers all questions....it doesn’t....as you didn’t answer my question.
Did the Jews believe that they were going to heaven? At any stage in their existence, did God ever tell any of his people that they were heaven bound? Did he warn Adam about heaven and hell? The answer is NO!
Jesus was the one who introduced a new destiny for his disciples.....and it required being “born again”....something they had never heard of or even contemplated, as Nicodemus was puzzled at the the suggestion of such a thing. Jewish expectation was of an earthly Kingdom with the restoration of natural Israel, back to their Land, which had been taken from them centuries before by foreign powers, all foretold by Daniel. The “Gentile Times” were about foreign domination of God’s people until Messiah brought his Kingdom to put things back together...to “undo the works of the devil” and reconcile alienated mankind back into harmony with their Creator. This was not to take place until Christ’s return.
How do we know that when Jesus died, they still didn’t quite understand the heavenly nature of the Kingdom and their place in it? As Jesus was ascending to heaven his disciples asked him.... “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” (Acts 1:6)
They still retained their old expectation of an earthly Kingdom.....Jesus told them to wait for the promised holy spirit and all would be revealed to them.....and that is when the disciples, (120 of them) assembled together received the holy spirit and the conviction of their choosing for life in heaven. This is why they needed to be “born again” at their resurrection, into a new spiritual body, in order to exist in the presence of God. Their anointing was a token or pledge of what was to come when the Kingdom was established.
As Paul wrote.....
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance UNTIL we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:13-14 ESV)
There it is.....and from your beloved Paul himself. They received the guarantee at their anointing, but not the possession of it just yet. They died in the knowledge that they would “sleep” until their resurrection restored them to spirit life in heaven with their Lord.
From Paul again.....
“But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thess 4:13-17 ESV)
“we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first”
Are you reading what I am reading? Apparently not.
If Adam had been told that “hell” awaited him for disobedience, or that by obedience he would spend eternity in heaven with God, don’t you think he would have made a better decision?
He was told nothing except that there was life or death...complete opposites. Somehow Christendom turned life or death into heaven or hell. It’s a big fat lie.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
According to Isaiah the kingdom of God is a government...(Isa 9:6) it is a literal governing arrangement for mankind with Jesus and his elect at the helm in bringing mankind back into a reconciliation with their Creator. A relationship that was lost when Adam joined his wife in disobedience. Jesus came to buy back what Adam lost, which is why he is called “the last Adam”. (1 Cor 15:45) It’s an exchange of things of equal value.
Then you have a government with no subjects.....and priests with no one to guide in worship. All who are invited to heaven by God have a specific role......to become part of that governing arrangement as rulers and priests. They are the ones who are resurrected “first”. (Rev 20:6) Not all Christians are invited to heaven, but will be part of the “new earth”, whist their elected brothers will make up “the new heavens”. Either way their lives will be wonderful, no matter what capacity they serve the God who created them.
Today we are in a judgment period, like the people in Noah’s day. Jesus said that his return would be “just like the days of Noah” (Matt 24:37-39)....so what is the similarity?
Those people were in a hopeless situation as far as living a godly life was concerned. Angels had materialized and produce a hybrid race of gigantic bullies who were intent on creating havoc among the population. Mere humans were no match for their strength and violent disposition. Sexual immorality also dominated their lives because of these beings, so God gave Noah a timeframe in which he would construct a vessel to save his household and the animals, from what God was going to bring upon the disgusting human race.
Noah was called “a preacher of righteousness”, but his words fell on deaf ears, and his actions in constructing the ark were met with derision and mocking.
So Jesus said...
“For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matt 24:37-39 ESV)
In what way were these people “unaware” of what Noah said and did? They simply didn’t believe him.
By his words and actions, Noah condemned them and gave God grounds for saving none of them. They were warned but did not obey.....it’s always been about obedience.
This is what is happening again in this judgment period. The fact that people don’t believe what God’s servants are preaching, is no excuse for their disobedience either. And again, it will be the majority who perish. (Matt 7:13-14)
The “great tribulation” that Jesus foretold is the lead up to Armageddon and the elect by that time will be well and truly ready to take over the rulership of this earth.
Those Christians who are not part of the election will remain on earth, and will survive that awful time of trouble.
The apostle John saw them in his Revelation.....
Rev 7:9-10; 13-14....after seeing the chosen ones in heaven, John says....
“After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (ESV)
There are two groups who merit salvation...the elect and those who are taught by them. The great multitude are those seen “coming out of the great tribulation” so having “washed their robes in the blood of Jesus”, they too are saved.
Yes and this pertains only to the elect.....you leave out all who will benefit from the rulership of these elected ones....the “new earth” is not a new planet, but a cleansed earth as it was it Noah’s day, washed by the blood of Jesus and taken back to the beautiful paradise conditions that Adam lost for all his children.
Your scenario does not line up with the Scriptures at all.....
Your mantra is meaningless.
Jesus The Lord, rose from the Dead as the Head of the "Christian" church (The Body of Christ).........so, being that He is the "Cornerstone" He is now a Christian) (risen).
Notice this.....>>"CHRISTians.
See that?
We are Identified as CHRISTians, by being "in CHRIST".
As i told you, the Scriptures dont reveal everything that God told Adam, or Paul, or Isaiah, or Mary.
But, if you feel the need to keep pretending that YOU KNOW BETTER< then carry on with your nonsense. (same as before).
The "Times of the Gentiles" began with The Death of Christ on The Cross, and God is simply and wonderfully offering "all who will believe in Jesus".....Himself as their Eternal Father.
If you die in your sins, God is not your Eternal Father, He is your Eternal Judge.
Your verse is not only talking to Jews.
So, next time ........pick a verse thats strictly talking to Jews, and you'll still be wrong.
Jesus said that everyone "must be born again"... if you want to go to Heaven. as being born again puts you there "in Christ" as "one with God".
You can't have that after you did......you "must be born again" on earth to gain that eternal Spiritual UNION with God.
Your verse is talking to gentiles and Jews, regarding the Rapture.
See, in The Rapture, the believers "shall be changed"...........but in the Trib, that brings the 2nd Advent......the unbelievers shall be judged.
Take note of the differences.
According to Jesus the KOG is "within you"....and that is because "Christ in you" is the KOG in you. Luke 17:21 (KJV)
How to get that?
Jesus said....."you must be born again".
The "judgement period" begins with the Tribulation.
Currently we are in the "time of the Gentiles".
Noah and Abraham both achieved "Justification by Faith".
The entire Tribulation period is called "tribulation".....for a reason.
God is going to Judge, and Jesus is the means........ 2 Thess 1:8-9
Everyone is a sinner.
"'All have sinned, there is none righteous......no not one"..
So, Sinners can't "merit salvation"....but they can be given "the Gift of Salvation", if they give God their faith in Christ before they die.
This is the "imputed righteousness of Christ".
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Who are you putting the blame on here BF?
Jesus is the vine, so is he in some way defective because people exercise their freewill and fail to produce the fruitage that Christ displayed? They have his example and his teachings....so what else is necessary?
There is no predestination because free will makes that redundant. What is foreordained pertains to God’s will and how he carries out his purpose around the exercise of the free will that he gave to all his intelligent children.
Everything that happened in Eden was about the choices that all three rebels made of their own free will.
What satan did was a choice....same with Eve...same with Adam. All made bad choices but they were theirs to exercise and God had already told them of the consequences of disobedience.
What God created was not defective, nor was it designed to fail....all that was required of man was to obey their Supreme Ruler and they were never asked to do anything that was detrimental to them. He did not want them to know evil, but they chose to, with the penalty already explained. There was no excuse.
If only they had just done as they were told....where would the human race be right now?
Yes, you making the Vine look bad who is Christ, its His responsibility to bear fruit, the branch can do nothing
Wonder if this Sheperd, Great Shepherd, goes out to find His Lost Sheep, but cant find it, He comes back disappointed, He lost a Sheep, it looks bad.
Im not putting the blame of the Vine, which if it loses branch's that were connected to Him vitally, then something wrong with the life of the vine. The only thing that would make a branch unfruitful, it wasn't vitally connected to the Vine
Curious how you would recconcile the same mindset with the same God who would send others a powerful delusion that they should believe a lie that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Do you feel God might be disppointed on being so proactive and how that might appear to reflect badly on him somehow?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Responses like this just make me laugh.....all the first Christians were Jewish because that is whom Jesus was sent to....not to the gentiles but to God’s people first....to “the lost sheep”, but not to the religious leaders who would orchestrate his murder. They were incorrigible....bound for Gehenna.
In accord with God’s promise to Abraham, natural Israel were given first opportunity to become Messiah’s disciples, in the full knowledge that only a “remnant” would respond as Isaiah had foretold....and only a remnant of that nation ever did.
Romans 9:27-29...ESV...
“And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.”
If this “remnant” had not responded to Jesus’ preaching, the nation of natural Israel would have been wiped off the map like Sodom and Gomorrah.....as if they never existed.
Adam was told that he would die.....not that he would go to hell.....if enough of Adam’s story had not been told, then how would his children ever come to know what the death penalty actually meant? Death is the opposite of life.....”heaven and hell” were not even on Jewish radar as Jesus’ reference to “Gehenna” demonstrated.
The Jews knew what he meant because he wasn’t talking about “hell” but a place that was called “the second death”...unlike those who die because of Adam’s awful inheritance, this death was permanent because the other thing that Jews were never taught from their Scripture was that humans had an immortal soul. Death simply meant the opposite or absence of life. Immortality of the soul is a pagan concept, not found in Scripture.
Those thrown into literal Gehenna (Jerusalem’s garbage dump) were not given a decent burial because they were not considered worthy of a resurrection. This is what Jesus meant, but Christendom adopted the whole immortal soul scenario and all the invented nonsense that goes with it. Are you a victim?
You haven’t studied Daniel I assume.....the march of Gentile world powers was prophesied by him as beginning with Babylon, and ending in “the time of the end”...the time of the last human rulers. (Dan 2:44) This is the time for the establishment of God’s kingdom which will “crush” all corrupt human rulership and introduce the rulership of God over his earth with Jesus and his elect at the helm....something we never got to experience when Adam and his wife were evicted from their paradise home, onto cursed ground.
Do you know who “the Israel of God” is when Paul spoke of them in Gal 6:16?
That is just the point....who wants to go to heaven? When you speak to Christians who have an inordinate desire to “go heaven to be with the Lord”...what are they imagining? God created us with a desire to live in paradise, not heaven, and it’s this desire that permeates humanity......it is seen in their choice of holiday destinations....paradisaic places that they can enjoy, even for a short time, but it’s not where they live, is it?....so heaven must be the better place to live.....no one goes to heaven without God’s invitation....and only the elect have it. (John 6:65) There is another destination that fulfills all our desires....the restoration of the earthly paradise. (Rev 21:2-4)
What “rapture” is this? Where does the Bible speak of such a thing? I have seen bumper stickers that say “In case of the rapture this vehicle will be unoccupied”......is that what this rapture is? Is it something that takes place haphazardly?
When Christ has completed his separation of “the sheep and the goats”, it says that those of the elect will be with him when he returns. Only those alive on earth when he has manifested as judge will receive their sentence, the goats going to the place “prepared for the devil and his angels”. This is Gehenna.....the place of endless death, not endless torture.
The sheep will be protected during this time of great tribulation....just as Noah was protected through the end of that world. (Matt 24:37-39)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
This is another scripture that indicates no knowledge of what the KOG is at all......when Jesus said those words, to whom did he say them?.....and was he telling those men that the kingdom was in them? He consigned them to Gehenna!.....and said that their hearts were “far removed from him”....
What did Jesus actually say that conforms with all that he taught...?
Luke 17: 20-21 says....
“Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
Jesus is addressing you by name again.......so how could he say that to these wicked men? He was telling then that the king of God’s Kingdom was right there “in their midst” or “among them” and they didn’t believe him. The KOG is a real government resting of the shoulders of Jesus Christ and his chosen assistants. (Isa 9:6)
You see, when you quote a verse, you have to understand what it really means....not just what you want it to mean.
And their faith was confirmed by their actions...both did what God told them to do without hesitation even when it seemed like an enormous thing to do. Both were blessed for their actions not just empty words.
You merit something you have to qualify for. Paul used the games in some of his illustrations to show that stamina and training were needed to participate in a contest....which had to be run to the end.
He said at 1 Cor 9:24-27.....NASB...
“Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified”.
Say what??? Paul could be “disqualified” if he didn’t carry out his assignment?
For all your bluster, you really know very little about Paul’s teachings and only quote what suits your beliefs.
You come on here all full of your own importance and end up making a fool of yourself because of your lack of proper study. Please do some homework...you don’t know what you’re talking about half the time and the other half is a bit iffy also.
What is “imputed righteousness”?.......and is it the same as self righteousness? (Rhetorical question)
That word “imputed” is an interesting word for study.....like putting money into someone’s bank account that they did not earn. So being credited with something that was gifted through obedience in action....as in Abraham’s and well as Noah’s case. Each put forth a monumental effort in order to please their God and to demonstrate that obedience requires action in an ongoing way. There are no laurels to rest on....we have to finish the race to receive the prize.
There is no correlation, those God sends a strong delusion to believe a lie are not His Sheep, Christ didn't die for them, that's Gods Justice.
When Jesus was in His 3.5 yr ministry to the House of Israel, none of them were Christians.
See, Christianity didnt begin until Jesus was slain on The Cross as this birthed the NT Church.
2000 ys later most of the "body of Christ " are Gentiles, because The Cross also begain the "time of the Gentiles".
Paul is the only Apostle who is sent to the Gentiles, and His Theology is "church Doctrine"/
When Jesus was in His 3.5 yr ministry to the House of Israel, none of them were Christians.
See, Christianity didnt begin until Jesus was slain on The Cross as this birthed the NT Church.
2000 ys later most of the "body of Christ " are Gentiles, because The Cross also begain the "time of the Gentiles".
Paul is the only Apostle who is sent to the Gentiles, and His Theology is "church Doctrine"/
The Jews rejected Jesus.
If you own a bible, then read Acts 2, and you find Peter talking to the Jews (Pentecost) and tells them that they have "SLAIN their Messiah".
= Christ Rejection.
The Bible does not record all that God told Adam and Eve., exactly as not everything that Jesus did or said was written in the NT.
Let John explain it to you.
""""""And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written."""""
Hell is not for victims.
Its for these.
New International Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”
English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”
Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
New King James Version
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
New American Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
NASB 1995
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
NASB 1977
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Legacy Standard Bible
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Amplified Bible
He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”
Think more and assume less.
Paul came as the "Gentile Apostle" and sometimes Jews became born again also.... (Israel of God).
What a dumb question.
The Rapture = of the Bride of Christ.
It happesns after the "time of the Gentiles ends, and before the Trib starts"
Its when the born again get their New body and meet Jesus in the Air.
You told us that not every Chrisitan needs to be born again.
So, this proves that your "knowledge" of Paul's Theology, is ZERO.
It proves that your understanding of God's Salvation is Zero.
Your JW cult is demonic.....its Cross Rejecting and damned.
JW theology is the most bizarre and crazy that can be found.
Nothing is as strange and as NT rejecting as JW Theology.
Pick any other " pretend christian" cult.........and they all have something that isn't off the wall and off the chain theological madness.
But JW theology is completely bible rejecting nuts, from end to end, top to botton, and inside out.
Real Christians cant even relate to any part of crazy JW theology as its that theologically bizarre.
This forum allows you to continue, but most "christian forums" wont let a JW stay for 5 mins......so, thats the reality.
You found the one that will put up with your Cult's teaching.
Listen the thing about deception... its that the deceived believe the LIE is true.
Thats you @Aunty Jane
You quoted me in post #229 where I both posted "Although not all are his sheep", and I also posted the verse behind finding a lost sheep in its conclusion which was
Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
To which you responded
"Wonder if this Sheperd, Great Shepherd, goes out to find His Lost Sheep, but cant find it, He comes back disappointed, He lost a Sheep, it looks bad."
To which I had responded (in short)
"Curious how you would recconcile the same mindset with the same God who would send others a powerful delusion"...and basically how you might believe that such a thing "might appear to reflect badly on him somehow" in the same.
You now respond,
There is no correlation, those God sends a strong delusion to believe a lie are not His Sheep, Christ didn't die for them, that's Gods Justice.
So now you are agreeing with my post, that they are not his sheep, but you could not see where I agreed on the good Shepherd and the lost sheep he come for, and others not of that fold, or my adding into the post the key verse of Luke 15:7 which sums up the whole lost sheep picture there which has to do with the joy that is felt over one sinner that repents. That, you left out, but copy me on that post and say (what is posted above) which is again.
Wonder if this Sheperd, Great Shepherd, goes out to find His Lost Sheep, but cant find it, He comes back disappointed, He lost a Sheep, it looks bad.
What exactly are you talking about here referring to my initial post
I dont understand you, you sound confused and riddled up to me. The Shepherd is responsible for His sheep alone, and the Vine is responsible for its branches.
I dont see why the 2nd Thess 2:11 verse was brought into the equation anyway. Has nothing to do with Christs Sheep or Branches
No, its not the case at all, I stated that not all sheep were his, and you responded to my post the way you did, you appeared taken back at the thought that they were not
When you responded,
"Wonder if this Sheperd, Great Shepherd, goes out to find His Lost Sheep, but cant find it, He comes back disappointed, He lost a Sheep, it looks bad."
After having posted to you (first) that not all sheep are his, your response to that was a reasoning how this might look bad on the Great Shepherd if he lost a sheep. Your faulty reasoning (in respects to sheep that are not his) in that was the point there. I brought in 2 Thes applying that same mindset to it (since you seemed to want to contradict the fact that "not all are his sheep"). Showing in that verse (2 Thes) God being an active participant in sending them a strong delusion as it pertains to those who receive not a love for the truth but who had pleasure in unrighteousness (which is sin).
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