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BreadOfLife

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"eating and drinking Christ" is a painting of a spiritual concept, not some ritual done in a building imo
That's NOT what Jesus says:
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”


The usual Greek word used for human eating is phagon”. However, this is not the word used in these passages. St. John uses the word, “trogon”, which means, to munch or to gnaw - like an animal. Jesus was again using hyperbole as he often did to drive his point across so that the crowd would understand that he was not speaking metaphorically. He meant what he said.

Just as the Paschal Lamb was to be eaten, it is also true for the Lamb of God.

The Early Church agreed and also taught this CATHOLIC position. You know - the Early Church that the Protestant Revolt was trying to "get back" to??

Ignatius of Antioch
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).
. . . and are now ready to obey your bishop and clergy with undivided minds and to share in the one common breaking of bread – the medicine of immortality, and the sovereign remedy by which we escape death and live in Jesus Christ for evermore (Letter to the Ephesians 20 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these, but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported) how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life — flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord and is in fact a member of him? (Against Heresies 5:2 [A.D. 189]).

Clement of Alexandria
"Eat my flesh" [Jesus] says, "and drink my blood." The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).

Hippolytus
"And she [Wisdom] has furnished her table" [Proverbs 9:1] . . . refers to his [Christ's] honored and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper [i.e., the Last Supper] (Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs [A.D. 217]).

Aphraahat
After having spoken thus [at the Last Supper], the Lord rose up from the place where he had made the Passover and had given his body as food and his blood as drink, and he went with his disciples to the place where he was to be arrested. But he ate of his own body and drank of his own blood, while he was pondering on the dead. With His own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink (Treatises 12:6 [A.D. 340]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).
Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that, for they are, according to the Master's declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ. . . [Since you are] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so. . . partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul (ibid„ 22:6,9).

Theodore
When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, "This is the SYMBOL of my body" but, "This IS my body." In the same way when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say. "This is the SYMBOL of my blood," but, "This IS my blood," for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements] after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not according to their nature, but receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord. We ought not regard [the elements] merely as bread and cup) but as the body and blood of the Lord, into which they were transformed by the descent of the Holy Spirit (Catechetical Homilies 5:1 [A.D. 405]).

Ambrose of Milan
Perhaps you may be saying, "I see something else; how can you assure me that I am receiving the body of Christ?" It but remains for us to prove it. And how many are the examples we might use! . . . Christ is in that sacrament, because it is the body of Christ (The Mysteries 9:50, 58 [A.D. 390]).

Augustine
I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord's table, which you now look upon and of which you last night were made participants. You ought to know that you have received what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That bread which you see on the altar having been sanctified by the word of God is the body of Christ, That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).
What you see is the bread and the chalice, that is what your own eyes report to you. But WHAT YOUR FAITH OBLIGES YOU TO ACCEPT is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith, yet faith does not desire instruction (ibid. 272).
 

ScottA

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Your making a false dichotomy between Peter and the Holy Spirit, pitting one against the other. The Bible doesn't do that.
If I point to the difference between Peter and the Holy Spirit, it is because they are different, just as any man is different than the Holy Spirit. Men are not the Holy Spirit, He is our Helper, that's all.
This is a total misrepresentation of what the Church teaches about The Body of Christ and the Magisterium. The Bible doesn't pit one against the other the way you do. Another false dichotomy.
I am saying nothing against those appointed by God for service, any more than I am against my own eyes for seeing or my legs for walking. But it is only my Head that has authority over them. He who has an ear, let him hear.
His providence guided "men" to canonize the Bible during an era of uncertainty. Do a Bible search on "word of God". It appears 180 to 200 times. Nowhere does it mean written word alone. Your definition of "word of God" is incomplete.
This is me (in Christ) telling you this very thing. Why then do you not hear even yourself, that "men" have no authority?
Popes are not kings, they are chief stewards, modeled after the Davidic Kingdom; not some corporation that you guys have dreamed up.
Popes, if they are of God, are indeed kings (and priests), as I am. But a king under Christ does not lift himself up, or allow himself to be revered above other men: "And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
You're bending over backwards to avoid the truth that Paul was under Church authority. Peter didn't need to be there, that's what bishops are for.
The church has no authority of its own.
I gave a long list of proof texts showing Paul was UNDER CHURCH AUTHORITY.
The church has not authority of its own.
 

BreadOfLife

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No, Peter said that. (1Peter 5:13)

Stranger
No - YOU simply don't understand the context of Scripture.
Peter was using the 1st century code for Rome which is "Babylon".

Do you understand that John is speaking of Rome when he uses the word "Babylon" in Revelation?
OR - do you believe that John was also talking about Iraq??
 

ScottA

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Peter wasn't a leader?
.
Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.

Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the "fisher of men."

Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples.

Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.

Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree.

Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader..

Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.

Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.

John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the "barque of Peter") is a metaphor for the Church.

John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.

John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles.

Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn't it need one to Peter? Of course.

Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.

Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon's quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.

2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul's letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.

Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.
If you understood and took to heart that a leader under Christ is a servant and of no personal authority, then I would call Peter a leader. But since you accredit him with more authority than he was given, then I will not join you in your incorrect definition of the term, but will call him a servant only.
 

Stranger

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No - YOU simply don't understand the context of Scripture.
Peter was using the 1st century code for Rome which is "Babylon".

Do you understand that John is speaking of Rome when he uses the word "Babylon" in Revelation?
OR - do you believe that John was also talking about Iraq??

First century code....give me a break. This is how the Romanist have built their kingdom. Nothing means what it says. And it means only what they say.

I believe Peter was talking about Babylon. The 'Babylon' of prophecy is different in Revelation. Do you really believe Peter is saying that the church or she who is the whore saluteth you. How ridiculous.

Stranger
 
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BreadOfLife

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First century code....give me a break. This is how the Romanist have built their kingdom. Nothing means what it says. And it means only what they say.

I believe Peter was talking about Babylon. The 'Babylon' of prophecy is different in Revelation is different. Do you really belive Peter is saying that the church or she who is the whore saluteth you. How ridiculous.

Stranger
That's not what Peter says - what's wrong with you??
1 Pet. 5:13
She (the Church) who is IN Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.


He doesn't mention anything about the "Whore".
Your reading and interpretive skills are non-existent . .
 

ScottA

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i dunno,

1... Do not say sharp words to one who has authority in the church,

but then again there is no Witness for this that i can find, either...
That authority refers to the chief priests of Israel. But we now have a new High Priest in Christ.

That is not to say that the church has no authority at all, it simply has no authority over the body, for it is the body. But the authority that is given to the church is over the forces of good and evil, to bind or cast out.
 
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Stranger

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That's not what Peter says - what's wrong with you??
1 Pet. 5:13
She (the Church) who is IN Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.


He doesn't mention anything about the "Whore".
Your reading and interpretive skills are non-existent . .

You are the one that wants to identify Baybylon of Revelation to Babylon in (1 Peter 5:13). That makes the church at Rome the whore.

See your post #925.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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If you understood and took to heart that a leader under Christ is a servant and of no personal authority, then I would call Peter a leader. But since you accredit him with more authority than he was given, then I will not join you in your incorrect definition of the term, but will call him a servant only.
And that's precisely why Peter was the leader - because he was the servant of all.
At the Last Supper - Jesus explicitly said:
Luke 22:25-26
He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them and those in authority over them are addressed as ‘Benefactors’; but among you it shall not be so. Rather, let the greatest among you be as the youngest, and the leader as the servant.

What does Hew say to Peter just a few verses later while they were still seated at Supper??
Luke 33:31-32
“Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that YOUR (singular) own faith may not fail; and once YOU (singular) have turned back, YOU (singular) must strengthen YOUR (singular) brothers.”


Peter was chosen by CHRIST to lead and to serve. It is not something HE asked for.
The official title of the Pope is "The servant of the servants of God."
 
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BreadOfLife

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You are the one that wants to identify Baybylon of Revelation to Babylon in (1 Peter 5:13). That makes the church at Rome the whore.

See your post #925.

Stranger
First of all - nothing in post #925 states that the Church is the "whore".
Not really sure why you would spew that lie.

Secondly, the "whore" isn't a church.
If you understood ANYTHING about Scripture - you would know that the "whore" is Jerusalem. Isaiah 1:21 states this clearly:
Isaiah 1:21
See how the faithful city has become a prostitute! She once was full of justice; righteousness used to dwell in her-- but now murderers!


Rev. 17:6 depicts the whore as being "drunk on the blood of the prophets".
WHO killed the prophets??

Matt. 23:37

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling!

Stop quoting the Bible until you understand what it means.
Your Scriptural ignorance is astounding . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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You make no sense. If the church is the body of Christ (which it is), then your claim would be that: Jesus left us with us.
He left us with Church leadership.
Tell me - how do YOU interpret the following words of Christ:
Matt. 18:15-18
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the CHURCH. If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

I guarantee you that even YOUR sect has leadership - unless you're a Lone Ranger like so many of the lost people on this forum.
 
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ScottA

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The official title of the Pope is "The servant of the servants of God."
And all who are saved shall wear the robes of righteousness. But you have not given robes to all, but to one.
 

ScottA

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He left us with Church leadership.
Tell me - how do YOU interpret the following words of Christ:
Matt. 18:15-18
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the CHURCH. If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

I guarantee you that even YOUR sect has leadership - unless you're a Lone Ranger like so many of the lost people on this forum.
The proper definition of church in the above contest, would be: assembly or congregation. Thus, if such a one is not with the assembly or congregation on a matter, they are put out.
 

BreadOfLife

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And all who are saved shall wear the robes of righteousness. But you have not given robes to all, but to one.
What are you talking about??
WHO gave the Pope a "robe of righteousness"??
 

BreadOfLife

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The proper definition of church in the above contest, would be: assembly or congregation. Thus, if such a one is not with the assembly or congregation on a matter, they are put out.
WRONG.

Read the first part of what Jesus is saying. He said to take a few witnesses to confront the brother.
These witnesses ARE members of the congregation.

The final appeal is to the Church leadership - the hierarchy.
And don't get self-righteous with me about hierarchy because ALL Protestant denominations have a hierarchy.
 

amadeus

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WRONG.

Read the first part of what Jesus is saying. He said to take a few witnesses to confront the brother.
These witnesses ARE members of the congregation.

The final appeal is to the Church leadership - the hierarchy.
And don't get self-righteous with me about hierarchy because ALL Protestant denominations have a hierarchy.
Actually, while all main stream Protestant denominations may have a hierarchy, to the extent that they have they are likely as wrong as you are. I won't say how wrong you are. I grew up as a Roman Catholic, but was gone was that church before the time of Vatican II. Vatican II did some good things, but it did not solve the problems that existed and neither have most of the Protestant churches solved the problems that exist within them.

The answers are in scripture, but only by following the lead of the Holy Ghost can any person find any of those answers. Do I have them? I have only what God has given me and what I have received from men. Hopefully, that part received from men is continuing to diminish in me while that part from God is continuing to increase.

When I was a Catholic I tried to be faithful, but RCC itself stopped me from growing within it. [or was that God working already to bring me to a better place?]

When I was a Jesus Name Only Pentecostal I tried to be faithful, but again I was stopped from growing within it.

I did grow in those places, but there really was and is something more.

A hierarchy in sense does exist within the True Church, but it exists only according to God's Order. His Order is found in the Body of Christ, but what is that?

You would say it was in the RCC, while I would say that some individuals in that organization may well be in the Body of Christ, most of them are probably missing something essential. I am not qualified to make a ruling on you, but neither either most of those in designated positions within the RCC.

Is there a hierarchy in God's Order? Certainly, but to see that Order and to follow that Order requires more than being a member of the RCC or of any other organized Christian group... as I see it, and I believe, as God sees it.





 
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ScottA

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WRONG.

Read the first part of what Jesus is saying. He said to take a few witnesses to confront the brother.
These witnesses ARE members of the congregation.

The final appeal is to the Church leadership - the hierarchy.
And don't get self-righteous with me about hierarchy because ALL Protestant denominations have a hierarchy.
So you say. But what you say is right or wrong is known, just as you are known.

A "few witnesses" is a few witnesses, but the church is not a few.