Salvation Through Baptism ???

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Candidus

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--we do not know with certainty the thief was not water baptized. He may very well been of those baptized in Mark 1:5.

I know with a certainty that the Scriptures never say that he was baptized. Sorry, wishful thinking to justify a bad doctrine is no defense.

--the thief is not an example of gospel salvation


So Jesus gave people lies and false hope for three whole years? He declared salvation if they believed on Him; was that only if they outlived Him? He told the repentant thief that "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." A Last Will and Testament is ratified when the Testator dies. The thief died under the New Testament dispensation, proven by Scripture stating that his legs had to be broken in order to expedite his death, and when they came to Jesus, He had already died.
 

Daciple

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I believe without a doubt you must be Baptized to be Saved.

The Scripture is clear that unless you are Baptized you can not be Saved.

The problem is, people have not understood that there are 2 different Baptisms. John knew it, he Baptized with Water, but Jesus Baptized with the Holy Spirit.

One of those Baptisms is essential to Salvation, the other is an outward demonstration of what has already occurred internally.

I was Born Again in a Drug Rehab center, one night I prayed for Salvation and the next day my heart changed, I went from Unbelief to Belief. I can remember the exact second that I was Born Again, I can remember the literal second that my heart changed, that my Soul was Saved and God moved into my Life, bound me up and sealed me with the Holy Spirit. In that second I was Baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Because of where I was at, I had no possible way to be Baptized in Water. Now there are those who ignorantly believe one MUST be Baptized in Water for Salvation, but the fact remains, I know with zero doubts that if I had died in those months in there I would have gone to Heaven. The Holy Spirit was 100% active in my life from that moment on. I started preaching the Gospel to everyone who would listen, telling them that Jesus and the Bible was real. This coming from a person who weeks prior was strung out on Drugs and literally hated the Jesus of the Bible and was cobbling all sorts of False Religions together to invent my own Religion which at the heart was created specifically to negate the Biblical Jesus.

Only the Holy Spirit of God can change a man from a literal Christ hater that doubts the Bible one day into someone ready to die over their belief that Jesus is God who died on the Cross for Salvation and by no other name can one be saved.

Eventually a few months later I was Baptized and it was in my heart from the moment I was Born Again, the desire to get Baptized. The Act of being Baptized to me was the 2nd most Spiritual Experience in my Life, I didnt know what to expect, the Pastor of that Church took me by the hand said something I dont remember what, and plunged me beneath the Water.

When I went down I thought I was dying, literally dying, I was filled with Fear, I didnt think I was going to come back up and it felt like I was under there forever, like no joke, words can not truly convey the fact that I seriously felt like I was dying and how overcome with Fear I was. However moments later I was pulled from the Water and it was seriously like I was Re-Born. I came up out of that Water and I felt as tho I was perfectly clean, I felt like I was a New Man. It was an intense Spiritual Experience I will never forget.

And while being Baptized in Water was an amazing experience, and I was able to more fully understand the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, I have zero doubts that the night/day in the Drug Rehab was the day I was Born Again.

I believe and know that any truly Born Again person will be imparted with the Holy Spirit and that Holy Spirit will cause them to be Baptized. I know the call on my heart to get Baptized was significant, I couldnt reject it, I didnt want to reject it, I was so excited to show the World what Christ did in my life.

However it is ONLY the Holy Spirit living in someone that can cause them to truly want to be Baptized, and my Baptism in Water did absolutely nothing to may Salvation or standing before God. The only thing that brought me Salvation and correct standing before God, was that one moment where I went from unbelief to belief in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. If anyone tells you that Salvation comes by any other way than by Faith thru Grace in the Finished Work of Jesus Christ, mark and avoid them for they are preaching a False Gospel.

My Works, my following out in obedience of Water Baptism, didnt do squat for my Salvation, I was already fully saved, already sealed, already had the Holy Spirit living inside of me for months before I was in a position to get dunked underwater...
 
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marksman

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Hi

ACTS 2:38
Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So is baptism necessary in order to receive the Holy Spirit?

And is baptism necessary for salvation? If a person has accepted Jesus Christ by faith and has made a full repentance, yet have not become baptized.. are they saved.

According to the verse you quoted, yes.
 

marksman

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I believe without a doubt you must be Baptized to be Saved.

The Scripture is clear that unless you are Baptized you can not be Saved.

The problem is, people have not understood that there are 2 different Baptisms. John knew it, he Baptized with Water, but Jesus Baptized with the Holy Spirit.

One of those Baptisms is essential to Salvation, the other is an outward demonstration of what has already occurred internally.

I was Born Again in a Drug Rehab center, one night I prayed for Salvation and the next day my heart changed, I went from Unbelief to Belief. I can remember the exact second that I was Born Again, I can remember the literal second that my heart changed, that my Soul was Saved and God moved into my Life, bound me up and sealed me with the Holy Spirit. In that second I was Baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Because of where I was at, I had no possible way to be Baptized in Water. Now there are those who ignorantly believe one MUST be Baptized in Water for Salvation, but the fact remains, I know with zero doubts that if I had died in those months in there I would have gone to Heaven. The Holy Spirit was 100% active in my life from that moment on. I started preaching the Gospel to everyone who would listen, telling them that Jesus and the Bible was real. This coming from a person who weeks prior was strung out on Drugs and literally hated the Jesus of the Bible and was cobbling all sorts of False Religions together to invent my own Religion which at the heart was created specifically to negate the Biblical Jesus.

Only the Holy Spirit of God can change a man from a literal Christ hater that doubts the Bible one day into someone ready to die over their belief that Jesus is God who died on the Cross for Salvation and by no other name can one be saved.

Eventually a few months later I was Baptized and it was in my heart from the moment I was Born Again, the desire to get Baptized. The Act of being Baptized to me was the 2nd most Spiritual Experience in my Life, I didnt know what to expect, the Pastor of that Church took me by the hand said something I dont remember what, and plunged me beneath the Water.

When I went down I thought I was dying, literally dying, I was filled with Fear, I didnt think I was going to come back up and it felt like I was under there forever, like no joke, words can not truly convey the fact that I seriously felt like I was dying and how overcome with Fear I was. However moments later I was pulled from the Water and it was seriously like I was Re-Born. I came up out of that Water and I felt as tho I was perfectly clean, I felt like I was a New Man. It was an intense Spiritual Experience I will never forget.

And while being Baptized in Water was an amazing experience, and I was able to more fully understand the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, I have zero doubts that the night/day in the Drug Rehab was the day I was Born Again.

I believe and know that any truly Born Again person will be imparted with the Holy Spirit and that Holy Spirit will cause them to be Baptized. I know the call on my heart to get Baptized was significant, I couldnt reject it, I didnt want to reject it, I was so excited to show the World what Christ did in my life.

However it is ONLY the Holy Spirit living in someone that can cause them to truly want to be Baptized, and my Baptism in Water did absolutely nothing to may Salvation or standing before God. The only thing that brought me Salvation and correct standing before God, was that one moment where I went from unbelief to belief in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. If anyone tells you that Salvation comes by any other way than by Faith thru Grace in the Finished Work of Jesus Christ, mark and avoid them for they are preaching a False Gospel.

My Works, my following out in obedience of Water Baptism, didnt do squat for my Salvation, I was already fully saved, already sealed, already had the Holy Spirit living inside of me for months before I was in a position to get dunked underwater...

No doubt that is a great story and very inspiring. This argument about water baptism has been going on forever and a day. and that is where the problem arises. My way is the right way but it is a bit more nuanced than that.

Acts 2 is the first time when repentance and baptism were spoken of in the scriptures to obtain the forgiveness of sins and to receive the Holy Ghost. I believe that is the pattern we have to strive for whenever that is possible. If it is not possible, then God is not going to punish you for it. A good example of what I am saying is this passage.....

Acts 19:1 And it happened, in the time Apollos was in Corinth, Paul was passing through the higher parts to come to Ephesus. And finding some disciples, he said to them, Believing, did you receive the Holy Spirit? And they said to him, We did not even hear whether the Holy Spirit is. And he said to them, Then to what were you baptized? And they said, To the baptism of John. And Paul said, John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe into the One coming after him, that is, into the Christ, Jesus. And hearing, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. And Paul laying hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in languages and prophesied.

Note that they were called disciples. They had been through John's baptism which obviously was not the same as baptism in Jesus' name. They were asked if they had received the Holy Spirit. Answer...Nope. Never heard of him.

Did Paul say "Then you are not disciples?" Answer no. The disciples were baptized into the name of Jesus, Paul laid hands on them and the Holy Spirit came on them and they spoke in languages and prophesied.

So, it can happen this way or that way. what is important is that it happens. We need to let God sort out the details and when he does, we need to be obedient to what he says.

And please note that they were baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus. Not the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
 

Daciple

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And please note that they were baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus. Not the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

So let me ask, if someone is baptized in the name of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost, is this going to negate their Baptism/Salvation?

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

And yes it has been debated forever, and it will go on forever. Its already been spoken of what Acts 2:38 means, but I would take it that you choose to interpret it as Baptism brings Forgiveness. I disagree and can quote you all the other times that Greek word means because of, which of course changes the understanding of that verse. Be baptized because of the remission of your Sins.

Matt 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Same Greek Word there as is for in Acts 2:38. Did the men repent BECAUSE OF the preaching of Jonas or did they repent IN ORDER TO the preaching of Jonas?

If we take Acts 2:38 to be Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ (because of) the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then it takes on a different meaning and it lines up with what Peter preaches in his next 2 sermons, where he doesnt mention Baptism for Salvation, which is odd if he really is telling people they NEED to be Baptized in Water for Salvation.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Seems Peter ought to have commanded this every time he preached if it was necessary for Salvation, but the one thing he always preached was believing in Jesus...
 

Eternally Grateful

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Hi

ACTS 2:38
Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So is baptism necessary in order to receive the Holy Spirit?
no
[quote
And is baptism necessary for salvation? If a person has accepted Jesus Christ by faith and has made a full repentance, yet have not become baptized.. are they saved.[/QUOTE]
Yes
 
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Eternally Grateful

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We are saved because we are baptized by God himself into Christ and his death (Rom 6)
We are saved because we have been baptized with the spiritual circumcision done by the hand of God (Col 2
We are saved because we have been baptized with then baptism christ was baptized with (the cross)
We are saved because we are born again because we believed in the only begotten son of God who died for us (john 3)
We are saved because we ask and out of us came rivers of living water swelling up to eternal life (John 4)
We are saved because we worked for the food which Enders to eternal life, Ie we ate the bread of life which was sent from heaven, and partook of his flesh and blood through faith in Christ (john 6)
We are saved because we heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, and having believed we were given the HS (Eph 1)
We are saved because by we recieved it grace through faith and not of any work (water baptism is a work) Eph 2)
We are saved because we believed in our heart and confessed with our mouth (Rom 10)
We are saved, not because we did any good deed (water baptism is a good deed) but by Gods mercy, through the washing and regeneration of the Hs (titus 3)

I can go on and on and on, water baptism is a command, like assembling together, taking the lords supper, loving your neighbor, etc etc.non of which have any bearing on ones salvation, but are fruits of the spirit for those who are saved, yet only bloody rags for those who are not born again.
 

Rocky Wiley

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Water baptism does not save anyone.
Heb_10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Jas_2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Act_10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act_10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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Did you ever wonder if they are ALL included and work TOGETHER, instead of being one or the other??

Scripture is clear that mankind cannot add to the grace of God without voiding that grace. You can try to earn salvation, or you can accept it as a gift.
Fruit, works, baptism, do not activate or accomplish salvation; they are the result of a salvation already received and accomplished. God produces good works through the believer. Baptism does not save, it testifies to a salvation already received. Good works and acts of faith are the natural result of faith and God working in and through the believer. No "wonder" and no mystery why good things follow grace and faith...

I have not argued salvation can be earned.

Salvation is a free gift but it is a CONDITIONAL gift. Obedience to God by submitting to baptism is a CONDITION to receiving the free gift. Therefore obedience does not, cannot earn salvation. There are many examples in the Bible of men being obedient to the will of God but not in one case was their obedience said to earn God's justification. No one's obedience will be perfect, sinless therefore an imperfect obedience cannot merit anything. Even after the servant has done all that was his duty he is still an unprofitable servant in need of grace for he will not be perfect in doing his duty, Luke 17:10.

There was a "preacher" on the radio denying the necessity of water baptism using all the same old failed straw man arguments against it. He argued that if submitting to baptism is a requirement, then one is adding to the grace of God and trying to work to merit salvation. Yet at the end of his speech he offered a booklet he had written for free to all his listeners. He kept emphasizing it was FREE, no charge whatsoever. Want a FREE booklet? All you had to do was submit your name and address to him and he would send you a FREE booklet.

But according to his own so called "logic" if submitting to baptism is a work to attempt to earn salvation then submitting your name and address is a work to earn the booklet...it was not FREE as he claimed. Yet he was able to understand that you submitting your name and address was a necessary condition that must be met before he could send out and you receive his FREE gift. Your work in submitting your name and address did not take away from the freeness of his gift. But he refused to apply this same thinking to baptism. That submitting to baptism is a necessary condition to receiving the free gift of salvation as submitting your name and address was a necessary condition to receive the free booklet. The submitting earned nothing in either case but was simply a necessary condition that must be met to receive the free gift. His theological bias was openly exposed for all to see.

Above you put the cart before the horse in saying one is first saved then one obeys. For the Bible puts obedience BEFORE being saved. There is not one NT gospel example of God FIRST saving the disobedient, unrighteous, rebellious, impenitent person THEN afterwards that person obeyed.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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--The Greek word eis means for, looking forward..be baptized for, unto, looking forward to having sins remitted. It does not mean 'because".

" My children are with me in (eis) bed." Luke 11:7. They were already with him in bed, there is not any reference to the future.

"The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for (eis) they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. Matt. 12:41. Luke 11:32.

It would be a better multiple word translation to interpret the meaning of eis as, “on account of,” “because of ” (Matt. 12:41; Luke 11:32), “in accordance ”or “with reference to," the remission of sins. This would be more appropriate since this would keep in harmony with the passages that assert that we are saved by faith and not by any works. (See Brown, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 3:1208 ; Perschbacher, The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, page 121, eis, (with reference to; as in 2 Cor. 10:13,); Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich, Greek Lexicon, page 230 , eis, (with respect or reference to); Moulton, The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised, page 119, eis, (with a view to; with reference to; in accordance with).


"For" and "because" may be flexible in our English language but they are not in the Greek. The NT Greek is a very precise language with different words for "because" and "for" and it has never been proven that "for" and "because" are interchangeable in the Greek.

Matthew 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for (eis) the remission of sins.". Here is the exact same phrase found in Acts 2:38. Did Christ shed His blood BECAUSE sins were already remitted? No, that's impossible, Hebrews 9:22. Greek scholar AT Robertson had no problem understand eis means 'for' in Mt 26:28. Yet when he got to Acts 2:38 he was no longer sure what it means even though it is the same phrase found in Mt 26:28. So how did he get around this problem? In his commentary on Acts 2:38 he said "One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not." What a horrible way to treat God's word. Instead of letting the Bible speak for itself one can substitute one's theological bias into the Bible instead. In essence he is saying if one does not like what a verse says, then change it to make it conform to your own personal bias.

1 Timothy 1:16 "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to (eis) life everlasting." One believes on Him BECAUSE one already has life everlasting? No.



Matthew 12:41 "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here."

The idea of this verse is not Nineveh repent simply "because" Jonah preached to them but they repented AT his preaching. The word repent means to make a change, hence they changed/repented in order for their lives to fit the righteous preaching of Jonah. Looking at Jonah 3 that is what they did..they turned from their evil way in order for their lives to fit Jonah's preaching.


They repented into the preaching of Jonah:

"The preposition here rendered “at” is eis, which usually means “into.” Some writers have contended that it here means “because of,” or “in consequence of,” a meaning quite foreign to the word. It is true, as a matter of fact, that the Ninevites repented in consequence of the preaching of Jonah; but had it been the purpose of the writer to express this thought, he would have used the preposition dia instead of eis. The thought of the passage is quite distinct from this. They repented into the preaching of Jonah. This is not idiomatic English, but it conveys the exact thought a Greek would derive from the original. The term “preaching” is put for the course of life required by the preaching, and it is asserted that they repented into this. Their repentance, in other words, brought them into the course of life required by the preaching, and it is asserted that they repented into this (1875, 113)." JW McGarvey


================

(1)
In Acts 2:38 Peter connects "repent" to "baptized" with the conjunction "and" making them inseparable. Therefore if one baptized BECAUSE his sins are already remitted then one repents BECAUSE his sins are already remitted which does not make sense.

(2)
if those Jews in Acts 2 were already saved prior to verse 38 then why does Peter exhort them to be saved in verse 40? If hey were saved prior to verse 38 then in what verse were they saved and why were they saved in that verse?

(3)
Peter cites a prophecy of Joel in Acts 2:21 " whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" and this prophecy was fulfilled in verse 38:
v21-----------call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
v38-----------repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved/remission of sins

If the fulfillment of this verse is one repents and is baptized BECAUSE he already is saved, then the prophecy of this verse must mena one calls upon the name of the Lord BECAUSE he already is saved. Right?

(4)
as pointed out in other posts, Acts 2:41, the logical implication of this verse is accepting the gospel means being baptized, rejecting the gospel means not being baptized. Therefore not being baptized is the same as rejecting the gospel.
 

ScottA

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The foreshadowing is not what saves. But we do it even now, that others may see and come to understand that salvation is the washing away of sins in Christ Jesus who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Heb_10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Jas_2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Act_10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act_10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lorend. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Yes, the bible teaches believers baptism.
It is an outward identification of an inward reality if it is in the correct object of faith.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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Mark 16:16------- baptism >>>>>>>>saves
John 3:5 --------born of water>>>>>>enter the kingdom
Acts 2:38------ baptism>>>>>>>>>>remission of sin
1 Peter 3:21---baptism>>>>>>>>>>saves

How do you reach the conclusion baptism does not save?


Mark 16:16 is a questionable verse as to its authenticity. Not something to build a doctrine upon. Notice that the passage is clear that believing and being baptized is not the same thing. The fact that those who do not believe shall be damned clearly makes no reference to baptism. Their lack of faith is the cause of their doom. The first half of the passage talks of salvation by faith, and baptism because they are saved. My friend, if you baptize a sinner, all you get is a wet sinner! If you baptize a Christian you have a testimony! Getting wet would do absolutely nothing for the one who is not already saved by faith. People get baptized because they believe and are already saved.

John 3:15 is not talking about baptism; that's eisegesis.

Acts 2:38 is emphatic in the Greek. Receiving the Holy Spirit by repentance and belief precedes baptism. One gets baptized in view of the remission of sins that has already occurred.

1 Peter 3:21 says that baptism does not cleanse the filth of the flesh.
“Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The LIKE FIGURE whereunto even baptism doth also save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Baptism is mentioned here only as a FIGURE, that is, a shadow, symbol, or picture of salvation. Baptism does not save; it declares salvation. It was as if God knew that this passage would be misused that He ended the verse with “(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.)” Water baptism does not put away the filth of the old carnal nature, but simply gives us a good conscience toward God.


Mark 16:16 is a genuine and legitimate as other NT verses. If one questions the genuineness of Mark 16 one needs to question the genuineness of the whole NT.
Is Mark 16:9-20 Inspired?

Mk 16(a) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
Mk 16(b) but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mk 16:16 is a compound sentence with 2 subjects 1) salvation 2) condemnation. CHrist made to conditions (belief and baptism) necessary to being saved and one condition (unbelief) to being condemned. Belief is connected to baptize with the conjunction "and" making them inseparable. If baptism is not necessary then neither is belief necessary.

Therefore one does not have to meet TWO conditions (unbelief and unbaptized) to be lost, unbelief is sufficient to cause one to be lost. In Mk16(a) Jesus used a logical progression making belief a prerequisite to baptism and baptism a prerequisite to being saved. This means an unbelieving person cannot be baptized. Therefore in Mk16(b) when Christ said "he that believeth not", the phrase "believeth not" logically already means not baptized since the unbeliever cannot be baptized. It would be redundant and unnecessary for Christ to say in 16(b) he that believeth not and is not baptized due to his unbelief shall be condemned since unbelief already includes not being baptized.


He that eateth AND digesteth his food shall live
he that eateth not shall die.

A logical progression as Christ used..one must first eat before he can digest and digest before he can live. Since one must eat before he can digest this means we can logically know that "eatheth not" means one has not digested for one cannot digest what he has not eaten. Just as we can know "believeth not" already includes not being baptized.


=====================

John 3:5 born of water refers to water baptism:
John 3:5------------Spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13----------Spirit++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5------------Holy Ghost+++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>saved

Since there is just one way to be saved/born again, than all 3 verse must express the same idea and they do. "Water" is equivalent to "baptized" which is equivalent to "laver of water". Therefore if a person is not born again it is his own culpability for not obeying the command to be water baptized and no culpability lies with God.


======================

1 Peter 3:21 Peter says baptism saves. End of story.

Acts 2:38---------------------baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved/remission of sins
1 Pet 3:21--------------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

The underlying word for like figure is anti-type which means a mirror reflection, a mirror reflection of the type.

OT type: saved by water (flood)
NT antitype: saved by water (baptism)

Hence the NT type (saved by water) is a mirror reflection of the OT type (saved by water). Obviously Peter is talking about water baptism for the world was flooded with literal water.

The world was not flooded with Spirit but with literal water. Hence the following is false:
OT type--------saved by water
NT antitype---saved by Spirit baptism

Water baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God. In Acts 2 Peter convicted his listeners of crucifying the Christ (v36) and it pricked them in their heart, that is, it made their conscience guilty to the point it caused them to ask Peter "what shall we do?" (v37). Peter's ANSWER for them to have a good conscience towards God was to command them to repent and be baptized for remission of sins (v38). Those that obeyed had their sins forgiven by God and would thereby have a good conscience towards God.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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--we do not know with certainty the thief was not water baptized. He may very well been of those baptized in Mark 1:5.

I know with a certainty that the Scriptures never say that he was baptized. Sorry, wishful thinking to justify a bad doctrine is no defense.

--the thief is not an example of gospel salvation


So Jesus gave people lies and false hope for three whole years? He declared salvation if they believed on Him; was that only if they outlived Him? He told the repentant thief that "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. A Last Will and Testament is ratified when the Testator dies. The thief died under the New Testament dispensation. The "Gospel Salvation" is by faith in Jesus Christ and nothing else; to include water!


There is NO VERSE that definitively stats the thief was or was not baptized. Therefore the whole "thief argument" as always been couched in assumption.

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Hebrews 9:16-17 "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."

Therefore the NT gospel could only come into effect AFTER the Testator (Christ) died. Yet Christ was alive when He promised the thief he would be in paradise. Hence they were both alive and under the OT law for the NT that requires baptism did not come into effect some time later in Acts 2.

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

The NT requires one to believe that God "hath raised" (past tense) Christ from the dead. Again, Christ was still alive when He promised the thief paradise much less been resurrected. So the thief was not accountable to nor under Romans 10:9 which is part of the NT that had not come into effect yet.

Romans 6:3-4 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

The NT requires a baptism into the death of Christ before one can walk in newness of life (born again). Again, Christ had not died when He promised the thief paradise therefore Rom 6:3-4 was not binding upon the thief since it was not yet in effect.

==================

Luke's account of the great commission Luke 24:47 "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

These words were written AFTER Christ died but they would not come in effect until seberal weeks later in Acts 2 at Pentecost. So even when one dies his will does not go immediately into effect there can be a period of probation. So Luke 24:47 did not go immediately in effect at the very moment Christ died but weeks later. Hence the thief was not accountable to Acts 2:38 for he did not live under it therefore not accountable to it.
 
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Enoch111

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Mark 16:16 is a questionable verse as to its authenticity.
That is incorrect. Modern bible versions are deliberately misleading in casting doubt on this passage of Mark 16:9-20.

The last twelve verses of Mark are genuine Scripture. Please study the book by that title written by John William Burgon, who actually examined all relevant manuscripts and was a specialist in this field. He established -- without the shadow of a doubt -- that that portion of Scripture is totally authentic. It is only in a couple of corrupt manuscripts that it has bee removed. Indeed Codex Sinaiticus has a blank portion which corresponds to the space required for those verses (and a picture is included in that book). Which is actually proof of their genuineness.

In any event we should ask ourselves why Mark 16:16 makes this statement: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

1. Those are the words of Christ, who never contradicts Himself, neither does Scripture contradict itself.

2. Jesus made it crystal clear that the one who believes on Him receives eternal life, and that is salvation:
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25,26)

3. Therefore the only reason baptism is joined to salvation in the above verse is because Christ expected those who believed to be IMMEDIATELY baptized. Thus salvation becomes simultaneous with baptism.
And that is exactly what the apostles and their companions did.

ACTS 8
THE GOSPEL WAS PREACHED

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

THE ETHIOPIAN BELIEVED ON JESUS AND HIS FINISHED WORK
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. [Note: this verse has been EXPUNGED from modern bible versions, another corruption]

WATER BAPTISM BY IMMERSION TOOK PLACE IMMEDIATELY
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Throughout the book of Acts, we see that there is no gap (or a very small gap) between conversion and Christian baptism. And even though we may read that they baptized in the name of Jesus, the words of Christ are authoritative and authentic in Matthew 28:19, and Christians were always baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. The Didache confirms this, and so does Justin Martyr.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Nope.
1 Corinthians 1:14-18 (KJV) I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

If baptizing saves, why does Paul state he doesn't even know who he baptized let alone state he was glad he baptized none of them? Rather Paul goes on and reveals the true power which delivers the work of Christ to the person, years after the Event...the Gospel received by faith.

1 Cor 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:..."

If Paul was LITERALLY sent "not to baptize" then why did he baptized, 1 Corinthians 1:14,16? Did he sin by baptizing? No.
Paul was under the great commission of Christ (Matthew 28:19-20) that commands disciples as Paul to go, teach and baptize. It would be contradictory on the part of Christ to command disciples to baptize but at the same time command them not to baptize.

1 Cor 1:17 is a not-but elliptical statement where emphasis is put on one thing (preaching) over another (baptizing) but not to the total exclusion of baptizing.

Example John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life,..."
Jesus is putting more emphasis on working for spiritual food over working for the physical food but not to the total exclusion of working for the physical food. It does not LITERALLY mean one does not have to work for the physical food, that would contradict 2 Thessalonians 3:10.

Hence Paul was to put more emphasis on preaching over baptizing but not to the total exclusion of baptizing. At Corinth they divided themselves over who had baptized rather than all be united in Christ (v 12). Paul did not want to add to the division "I thank God that I baptized none of you" Why? "Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name." Again, Paul did not baptize (verb) all at Corinth for he did not want any to say he baptized in his own name therefore he did not because baptism (noun) is unnecessary to salvation.


======

In order to heal the division at Corinth Paul asked a rhetorical question: (v13)
"Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

This question stated in the positive is:
Christ is not divided. Christ was crucified for you. You were baptized in the name of Christ.

Paul's point is that to be "of" someone two things must be true of that someone:
1) that someone must be crucified for you
2) you must be baptized in that someone's name
.

Since these two things are only true of Christ one cannot be "of" Paul or "of" Cephas or "of" Apollos.

Therefore for you and me to be "of" Christ these two things must be true:
1) Christ must be crucified for us. Hebrews 2:9 Christ tasted death for all men including you and me.
2) baptized in the name of Christ. I was. This baptism in the name of Christ is the baptism of the great commission of Acts 2:38 and ACts 10:47-48 water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.

Even though Christ died for all men all men will not be saved for they fail to meet the necessity of #2.

"In the name of" is a legal term that shows ownership. If I buy a car a register that car in the name of Ernest T. Bass that shows I am the owner. Not until one is baptized in the name of Christ does one come into the ownership of Christ.
 

Bible_Gazer

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So the real question is, can death bed repentance save people and babies who die before the time, goes to heaven or not ?
All these without any kind of baptism.
If the answer is yes, then baptism must not be really needed ??
If babies goes to heaven because they don't know God yet, then would not the ungodly people make it also since they don't know God yet ?
 

Getitright

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Hi

ACTS 2:38
Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So is baptism necessary in order to receive the Holy Spirit?

And is baptism necessary for salvation? If a person has accepted Jesus Christ by faith and has made a full repentance, yet have not become baptized.. are they saved.
Yes it's necessary, no you're not technically saved without it. Baptism is how one enters the new covenant. Can God make exceptions? Sure. Do we know when and if He will? I don't think so.
 
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prism

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1 Cor 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:..."

If Paul was LITERALLY sent "not to baptize" then why did he baptized, 1 Corinthians 1:14,16? Did he sin by baptizing? No.
Paul was under the great commission of Christ (Matthew 28:19-20) that commands disciples as Paul to go, teach and baptize. It would be contradictory on the part of Christ to command disciples to baptize but at the same time command them not to baptize.

1 Cor 1:17 is a not-but elliptical statement where emphasis is put on one thing (preaching) over another (baptizing) but not to the total exclusion of baptizing.

Example John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life,..."
Jesus is putting more emphasis on working for spiritual food over working for the physical food but not to the total exclusion of working for the physical food. It does not LITERALLY mean one does not have to work for the physical food, that would contradict 2 Thessalonians 3:10.

Hence Paul was to put more emphasis on preaching over baptizing but not to the total exclusion of baptizing. At Corinth they divided themselves over who had baptized rather than all be united in Christ (v 12). Paul did not want to add to the division "I thank God that I baptized none of you" Why? "Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name." Again, Paul did not baptize (verb) all at Corinth for he did not want any to say he baptized in his own name therefore he did not because baptism (noun) is unnecessary to salvation.


======

In order to heal the division at Corinth Paul asked a rhetorical question: (v13)
"Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

This question stated in the positive is:
Christ is not divided. Christ was crucified for you. You were baptized in the name of Christ.

Paul's point is that to be "of" someone two things must be true of that someone:
1) that someone must be crucified for you
2) you must be baptized in that someone's name
.

Since these two things are only true of Christ one cannot be "of" Paul or "of" Cephas or "of" Apollos.

Therefore for you and me to be "of" Christ these two things must be true:
1) Christ must be crucified for us. Hebrews 2:9 Christ tasted death for all men including you and me.
2) baptized in the name of Christ. I was. This baptism in the name of Christ is the baptism of the great commission of Acts 2:38 and ACts 10:47-48 water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.

Even though Christ died for all men all men will not be saved for they fail to meet the necessity of #2.

"In the name of" is a legal term that shows ownership. If I buy a car a register that car in the name of Ernest T. Bass that shows I am the owner. Not until one is baptized in the name of Christ does one come into the ownership of Christ.
Reread my post. My point addressed the OP 'Salvation through Baptism?'. I addressed that point in relation to Paul. I never came close to saying we aren't to baptize.
We are put into Christ and He dwells in us through faith in the Gospel. Baptism visibly portrays that fact.