Salvation Through Baptism ???

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prism

Blood-Soaked
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In a public forum, your post is directed to everyone who reads it. If you want it for one person only you should go to the section that allows you to do that. Known as the InBox
It was directed to the one who responded to me (just as I am directing this to you).
Of course any one can jump in and join the conversation, it just helps that in their 'jumping in' they don't 'jump' to any false conclusions like you did...and if it wasn't clear, you could have asked.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Anyone can play 'pick and choose'...

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Acts 2:21 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 15:11 (KJV) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Romans 10:13 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 (KLV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Are you sure you want to play that game?

I did not play "pick and choose" but posted 3 verses and asked why is it I can understand and accept those verses at literal face value while other people cannot but must find a way to change them. That should raise a red flag for some people.


As far as the verses you cite above, I have mentioned many, many times there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, therefore:

Acts 2:21 Romans 10:13-------------call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Acts 2:38------------------------------repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved/sins remitted


John 3:16--------------------------------------believeth in Him>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved/not perish
1 Peter 3:21-----------------------------------baptizd>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved


If one takes into account ALL salvific verses then one sees that it takes belief repentance confession and baptism to be saved there NT faith MUST include repent confession and baptism since there is but one way to be saved.


The real issue is that until people understand that grace/salvation is a CONDTIONAL gift and God has required one meet the condition of obeying His will in believing, repenting, conffessing and submitting to baptism they will never under salvation as taught in the NT gospel. Nowhere ever is obedience said to be a work one does to merit salvation but it has been and remains a condition God has placed upon His gift of salvation. Many, many examples of this can be found throughout the Bible OT and NT.

John 6:27 Jesus said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which He GIVES. Jesus GIVES everlasting life, it is free but at the same time one must meet the conditon (the work of belief) in order to receive the gift that Christ gives.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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Again, I have posted numerous times that since there is just one way to be saved, then NT faith/belief MUST include repentance, confession and baptism:

John 3:16-------------------belief>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/not perish
Luke 13:3------------------repentance>>>>>>>>>>>saves/not perish
Romans 10:9-10----------confession>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1 Peter 3:21---------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves


When one takes 'all the counsel of God" into consideration one finds that it takes more than "belief only" to be saves. The faith onlyists/Calvinists are the ones who cherry pick out verses as John 3:16; John 5:24; John 6:35; Acts 16:31 and then wrongly claim faith only saves while purposefully ignoring verses that require repentance, confession and baptism before one can be saved. They keep trying to change meaning of words, make words figurative in order to get around the force/truth of the verse, use false grammatical gymnastics and invent loopholes out of thin air to avoid plain simple language all to force their particular theological bias into the verse(s).


The Bible does teach it takes an obedient faith to be saved, no one here as ever shown or will ever show otherwise that God UNCONDITNONALLY saves the rebellious, unrighteous, disobedient, impenitent man.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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Exactly my point. I was mimicking Ernest Bass as he only showed verses that seemed to indicate baptism as a necessity.
Baptism is a necessity but not the ONLY necessity. As belief is a necessity but not the ONLY necessity.

I have pointed to verses that show belief and repentance and confession are all of equal importance and necessity to being saved as baptism.

The verses as Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21 do not SEEM to indicate baptism is necessary but clearly, as plain as the sun in the sky say baptism saves/is a necessity. It is those with a bias against water baptism that are trying to change those verses for they cannot accept them at literal face value for what they say.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Water baptism is just water baptism; an ordinance for new believers to follow after having been saved in showing a public witness of trusting Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him.

I cannot find where the Bible defines baptism as you have done here.


Enow said:
Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

One is saved by doing God's righteousness and not by doing one's own righteous works. Tts 3:5 "works of righteousness we have done" eliminates one from doing his OWN righteousness but does not eliminate one from doing God's righteousness. In Tts 3:5 "washing of regeneration" a laver of water refers to water baptism. Note how water baptism, washing of regeneration is CONTRASTED from works of righteousness we have done. That is because God has commanded men to be water baptized therefore submitting to water baptism is doing GOD'S righteousness and not one doing his OWN righteousness.

Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to (1) establish their own righteousness, have not (2) submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

There are 2 different kinds of works mentioned in this one verse:

1) establishing their OWN righteousness
2) submitting to GOD'S righteousness

Those Jews were lost for they were doing their own righteousness, they were following their own traditions rather than obey GOD'S righteousness/commands.

Therefore one doing his own righteousness ("works of righteousness we have done" per Tts 3:5 will NOT save. But obeying the righteousness (commands) of God DOES save. It can easily be seen that all works in the Bible are not the same, some works will not save while another work will save and NO VERSE eliminates ALL works of all kinds from salvation.
 
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Enow

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I cannot find where the Bible defines baptism as you have done here.

There is water baptism and there is the one Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Ghost and fire without water baptism.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

One is saved by doing God's righteousness and not by doing one's own righteous works. Tts 3:5 "works of righteousness we have done" eliminates one from doing his OWN righteousness but does not eliminate one from doing God's righteousness. In Tts 3:5 "washing of regeneration" a laver of water refers to water baptism. Note how water baptism, washing of regeneration is CONTRASTED from works of righteousness we have done. That is because God has commanded men to be water baptized therefore submitting to water baptism is doing GOD'S righteousness and not one doing his OWN righteousness.

Excuse me, brother, but water is not the cause and effect of that but the Holy Ghost is which is God's work.

Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to (1) establish their own righteousness, have not (2) submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

There are 2 different kinds of works mentioned in this one verse:

1) establishing their OWN righteousness
2) submitting to GOD'S righteousness

Those Jews were lost for they were doing their own righteousness, they were following their own traditions rather than obey GOD'S righteousness/commands.

Therefore one doing his own righteousness ("works of righteousness we have done" per Tts 3:5 will NOT save. But obeying the righteousness (commands) of God DOES save. It can easily be seen that all works in the Bible are not the same, some works will not save while another work will save and NO VERSE eliminates ALL works of all kinds from salvation.

First off, water baptism is a work of man; they can say it is their work of righteousness that enables God to save them and it is not.

Have you see the CC lately? Any Church that holds water baptism as an essential means to obtain salvation thru their church is denying Him as Savior.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Water baptism is an ordinance for new believers to follow as it is good and profitable unto men, not unto obtaining salvation by.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
 

prism

Blood-Soaked
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I did not play "pick and choose" but posted 3 verses and asked why is it I can understand and accept those verses at literal face value while other people cannot but must find a way to change them. That should raise a red flag for some people.
I never changed them, only added ones that didn't stipulate baptism (which actually are more numerous than those which do).
The real issue is that until people understand that grace/salvation is a CONDTIONAL gift
"A conditional GIFT???" Now that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. I pity your kids on their birthday.
 

marksman

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It was directed to the one who responded to me (just as I am directing this to you).
Of course any one can jump in and join the conversation, it just helps that in their 'jumping in' they don't 'jump' to any false conclusions like you did...and if it wasn't clear, you could have asked.

No false conclusions at all. Just your response suggested that you do not take kindly to anyone not agreeing with your position.
 

prism

Blood-Soaked
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No false conclusions at all. Just your response suggested that you do not take kindly to anyone not agreeing with your position.
A false assumption on your part.
I just don't why you keep insisting on proving me wrong?
 

Eternally Grateful

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Mark 16 says baptism. Nothing in the passage suggests it to be water baptism. so even if it is ligament scripture. It does not prove water baptism. It could suggest spirit baptism. ALl who are saved have been spirit baptized. And Johns take on the same conversation does not even use the word baptized.

John 3 has been thoroughly refuted in so many ways it is not even worth discussing anymore. If Jesus wanted nicodemus and us to think water represented baptism. He would have said so, (WHoever believes and is baptised) the fact he leaves the word baptism out PROVES baptism is not in focus here

acts 2. Again the greek does not say baptism is required. Peter tells everyone to repent. for the gift of the spirit. and only those who recieved remission of sin to be baptised based on that fact. (they recieved the remission)

1 peter 3. Againm Peter makes it clear. Baptism does not remove the filth of the flesh (sin) but is the answer of a good conscious. Like the waters of the flood. The waters of baptism are symbolic of what truly happens in a person life when they get saved. they are saved from Gods wrath)

Its sad that people want to add works of righteousness they HAVE DONE as a means to recieve Gods mercy, Paul in titus 3 refutes this notion.. We are not saved by any work of righteousness we have or will do. But by Gods mercy.

Water baptism is a work of righteousness we shoudl obey. But it will never save you. or help you to be saved in this lifetime or the next.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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I never changed them, only added ones that didn't stipulate baptism (which actually are more numerous than those which do).

"A conditional GIFT???" Now that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. I pity your kids on their birthday.

I did not say you changed those verses you cited, but my point was that you did not cite ALL salvific verses. There are dozens upon dozens of verses that deal with salvation therefore the 5 verses you cite do not come anywhere near exhausting all there is to know about salvation. You did not cite any verse that specifically mentions repentance but that does not make repentance unnecessary to salvation. Likewise with baptism, your failure to cite verses that mention baptism does not make it unnecessary either.


It's a fact that gifts can and do come with conditions, why do people act like they never heard of such an idea? The gift giver can choose to box and wrap your birthday gift therefore you must do the work of unboxing and unwrapping the gift but that work does not earn the gift in any way whatsoever.
 
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prism

Blood-Soaked
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I did not say you changed those verses you cited, but my point was that you did not cite ALL salvific verses. There are dozens upon dozens of verses that deal with salvation therefore the 5 verses you cite do not come anywhere near exhausting all there is to know about salvation. You did not cite any verse that specifically mentions repentance but that does not make repentance unnecessary to salvation. Likewise with baptism, your failure to cite verses that mention baptism does not make it unnecessary either.


It's a fact that gifts can and do come with conditions, why do people act like they never heard of such an idea? The gift giver can choose to box and wrap your birthday gift therefore you must do the work of unboxing and unwrapping the gift but that work does not earn the gift in any way whatsoever.
It's His obedience that saves...not ours...
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)

I rest in His righteousness and substitutionary atonement...not my baptism.
 

mailmandan

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It's His obedience that saves...not ours...
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)

I rest in His righteousness and substitutionary atonement...not my baptism.
Amen! Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed. ;)
 

Ernest T. Bass

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It's His obedience that saves...not ours...
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)

I rest in His righteousness and substitutionary atonement...not my baptism.

Jesus perfect obedience made Him a perfect sacrifice for sin.

Man's obedience is necessary to take advantage of Christ's perfect sacrifice.

Those that conditionally obey will be the ones whose sins will be cleansed by the blood of Christ. God has decided that the blood of Christ is sufficient to wash, cleanse, blot out sin. No verse says the sinner's sins are unconditionally transferred to Christ and in turn Christ's righteousness is unconditionally transferred to the sinner all while the sinner does nothing. That idea is an attempt by Calvinists to get around the Bible fact obedience is a necessary condition to receiving salvation. No verse says God unconditionally saves the impenitent, disobedient, unrighteous sinner.

Until Calvinists learn that salvation is a CONDITIONAL gift and can only be received by meeting the condition of obeying God's will then they will never correctly understand NT salvation. (And nowhere does the Bible say obedience merits salvation. Therefore the idea one is trying to merit salvation by being obedient is and continues to be a strawman.)

IF Christ's death on the cross is all that is required to be saved, then every man will be saved (Hebrews 2:9)
 

prism

Blood-Soaked
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Jesus perfect obedience made Him a perfect sacrifice for sin.

Man's obedience is necessary to take advantage of Christ's perfect sacrifice.

Those that conditionally obey will be the ones whose sins will be cleansed by the blood of Christ. God has decided that the blood of Christ is sufficient to wash, cleanse, blot out sin. No verse says the sinner's sins are unconditionally transferred to Christ and in turn Christ's righteousness is unconditionally transferred to the sinner all while the sinner does nothing. That idea is an attempt by Calvinists to get around the Bible fact obedience is a necessary condition to receiving salvation. No verse says God unconditionally saves the impenitent, disobedient, unrighteous sinner.

Until Calvinists learn that salvation is a CONDITIONAL gift and can only be received by meeting the condition of obeying God's will then they will never correctly understand NT salvation. (And nowhere does the Bible say obedience merits salvation. Therefore the idea one is trying to merit salvation by being obedient is and continues to be a strawman.)

IF Christ's death on the cross is all that is required to be saved, then every man will be saved (Hebrews 2:9)
Thanks for your opinions, it's just too much of an exercise in futility to continue.
 

mjrhealth

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Jesus perfect obedience made Him a perfect sacrifice for sin.

Man's obedience is necessary to take advantage of Christ's perfect sacrifice.

Those that conditionally obey will be the ones whose sins will be cleansed by the blood of Christ. God has decided that the blood of Christ is sufficient to wash, cleanse, blot out sin. No verse says the sinner's sins are unconditionally transferred to Christ and in turn Christ's righteousness is unconditionally transferred to the sinner all while the sinner does nothing. That idea is an attempt by Calvinists to get around the Bible fact obedience is a necessary condition to receiving salvation. No verse says God unconditionally saves the impenitent, disobedient, unrighteous sinner.

Until Calvinists learn that salvation is a CONDITIONAL gift and can only be received by meeting the condition of obeying God's will then they will never correctly understand NT salvation. (And nowhere does the Bible say obedience merits salvation. Therefore the idea one is trying to merit salvation by being obedient is and continues to be a strawman.)

IF Christ's death on the cross is all that is required to be saved, then every man will be saved (Hebrews 2:9)
Our part, is Faith, His death provided the way, our obedience by trusting Him in faith is the part that puts us on the path of righteousness.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Our part, is Faith, His death provided the way, our obedience by trusting Him in faith is the part that puts us on the path of righteousness.
They forget

The OT sacrificial system had to have the shedding of blood for forgiveness

It required faith, but the blood is what granted forgiveness or remission

Jesus is the lamb who Came to pay for the sin of the world

It takes our faith, But it is the blood which causes remission

No work of man (baptism or church going or taking communion or any work whatsoever) has any bearing on ones eternal life and forgiveness of sin.
 
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