Saved Or Predestined ???

[RainAndIceCream]

Yes.

However sin was in the world before Adam was created.
....

Your statement makes errant then Paul's observation found in Romans 5:12.

If sin was in the world before Adam was created, how would you then answer God's decree concerning all that he had created? Found in Genesis 1:31.

 

[Behold]

Your statement makes errant then Paul's observation found in Romans 5:12.

If sin was in the world before Adam was created, how would you then answer God's decree concerning all that he had created? Found in Genesis 1:31.

I said that Satan was on the earth and Satan brought sin.
So, sin was found before Adam was created.
Im not sure if you realize this, but God created Satan. (Lucifer). And Satan was in heaven with God, until "iniquity was found in Him".
He was then sent OUT of Heaven, or as Jesus said....'"I beheld Satan as lightning fall from Heaven"..
Sin was IN Satan. Satan was on Earth. = Sin was on Earth.
The world, as defined as "For God so loved the World"....is not the round green planet. Its the PEOPLE....they are the "world".
So, Adam, caused a situation within all humanity that the 2nd Adam came to resolve.

 

[RainAndIceCream]

I said that Satan was on the earth and Satan brought sin.
So, sin was found before Adam was created.
Im not sure if you realize this, but God created Satan. (Lucifer). And Satan was in heaven with God, until "iniquity was found in Him".
He was then sent OUT of Heaven, or as Jesus said....'"I beheld Satan as lightning fall from Heaven"..
Sin was IN Satan. Satan was on Earth. = Sin was on Earth.
The world, as defined as "For God so loved the World"....is not the round green planet. Its the PEOPLE....they are the "world".
So, Adam, caused a situation within all humanity that the 2nd Adam came to resolve.

I am aware Lucifer fell to earth. However, Lucifer was not given dominion over the earth, the first people created by God were.

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Genesis 1:28
Fallen Lucifer's sin did not affect God's creation, unlike Adam's did.

 

[Behold]

I am aware Lucifer fell to earth.
However, Lucifer was not given dominion over the earth,

Well, you've switched the discussion from SIN, to dominion theology.
So, we can talk about that now, if you like ?? or no?
Also, i didn't say that Satan's sin affected Adam.
I said that sin was on earth before Adam was created, as Satan was a sinner.
Sin '"iniquity" was IN Satan who was ON EARTH, before Adam showed up.

 

[RainAndIceCream]

Well, you've switched the discussion from SIN, to dominion theology.
So, we can talk about that now, if you like ?? or no?
Also, i didn't say that Satan's sin affected Adam.
I said that sin was on earth before Adam was created, as Satan was a sinner.
Sin '"iniquity" was IN Satan who was ON EARTH, before Adam showed up.

No, I haven't switched the discussion at all. Adam's sin affected the world. Your theology insists sin entered the world prior to Adam's sin. That's not what the Bible tells us.

 

[Renniks]

Scriptures says that the Son will save His people (Mt. 1:21). "His people" sure refers to a specific people ~ those chosen by God to be His people.

If a ransom is paid then one is redeemed. If Jesus, by His death had paid ransom for all, then all is redeemed, which evidently is not the case. The "all" then could not be referring to all of mankind, but to all of God's chosen people.

Tong
R0448

I can give you the money to pay your debt. I can not make you accept it.
What part of "whosever" means " only some people"?

 

[Tong2020]

I can give you the money to pay your debt. I can not make you accept it.
What part of "whosever" means " only some people"?

Perhaps, but that is simply not the case. It is Jesus Christ, not the people, who paid ransom, to redeem His people. He is the redeemer, not the people.

Tong
R0449

 

[Renniks]

Perhaps, but that is simply not the case. It is Jesus Christ, not the people, who paid ransom, to redeem His people. He is the redeemer, not the people.

Tong
R0449

Of course, where did I say otherwise?

 

[Tong2020]

Of course, where did I say otherwise?

Implied in what you say is that Jesus Christ redeemed all men. However, scriptures says that Jesus Christ redeemed His people, not all men.

Tong
R0450

 

[Renniks]

Implied in what you say is that Jesus Christ redeemed all men. However, scriptures says that Jesus Christ redeemed His people, not all men.

Tong
R0450

How does Christ's OFFERING redemption to all men equate to men offering the ransom to themselves? I never implied in any way that we died to ransom ourselves!

 

[Tong2020]

How does Christ's OFFERING redemption to all men equate to men offering the ransom to themselves?

You said "I can give you the money to pay your debt. I can not make you accept it." As I said "Perhaps, but that is simply not the case." Christ did not offer Himself as to be a ransom as like money, more so, offered Himself to each and every man that ever lived and will yet come to existence like so, for one to pay their debts or pay for their freedom from sin. Please show where in scriptures that Christ offered Himself to any one as ransom.

The giving up of His life as ransom, He had done so for all His sheep, for all of them that the Father had given Him, not for each and every man that ever lived and will yet come to existence. And the very moment that He died, the ransom was paid in full for them. It was a done deed. Ransom had been paid.

I never implied in any way that we died to ransom ourselves!

I never said you did.

Tong
R0451

 

[Fred Eans]

Hosea, God speaking - I will ransom them from the power of the grave, I will redeem them from death (Satan)
O death, I ill be thy plague. O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from my eyes. Matt. - and to give his life a ransome for many. Also Mark. 1 Tim. 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all.

 

[Renniks]

The giving up of His life as ransom, He had done so for all His sheep, for all of them that the Father had given Him, not for each and every man that ever lived and will yet come to existence.

Wrong. He is the sacrifice for all sin as I already showed from scripture multiple times. We give you a verse that explicitly said not just our sins, but the sins of the whole world, but you still try to deny that truth.

 

[RainAndIceCream]

Implied in what you say is that Jesus Christ redeemed all men. However, scriptures says that Jesus Christ redeemed His people, not all men.

Tong
R0450

Which scripture is that please.

 

[Tong2020]

Hosea, God speaking - I will ransom them from the power of the grave, I will redeem them from death (Satan)
O death, I ill be thy plague. O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from my eyes. Matt. - and to give his life a ransome for many. Also Mark. 1 Tim. 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all.

Greetings Fred!

May I ask what you quoted the scriptures for?
Thanks.

Tong
R0452

 

[Tong2020]

Wrong. He is the sacrifice for all sin as I already showed from scripture multiple times. We give you a verse that explicitly said not just our sins, but the sins of the whole world, but you still try to deny that truth.

You say that because your understanding is coming from a misuse of scriptures such as verses that seem to say that Jesus Christ's death is a ransom for each and very man that was, is, and will be. When, it is clear as day that not all men are saved. So, who is denying the truth? I have already pointed out the error in such understanding, that the "all" in such verses could not be referring to each and very man that was, is, and will be.

Tong
R0453

 

[Tong2020]

Which scripture is that please.

John 10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Luke 1:68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people,

Tong
R0454

 

[RainAndIceCream]

John 10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Luke 1:68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people,

Tong
R0454

Thank you for those scriptures. Who are his people?

 

[Renniks]

[


Of course it could and is referring

You say that because your understanding is coming from a misuse of scriptures such as verses that seem to say that Jesus Christ's death is a ransom for each and very man that was, is, and will be. When, it is clear as day that not all men are saved. So, who is denying the truth? I have already pointed out the error in such understanding, that the "all" in such verses could not be referring to each and very man that was, is, and will be.

Tong
R0453

Of course it could and is referring to all men. Ransom for all doesn't equal all accepting that they are ransomed. Why do you make a contradiction where there is none?

 

[Tong2020]

Thank you for those scriptures. Who are his people?

It's one of the scriptures I cited:

Luke 1:68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people,

Also, here's a verse regarding His sheep.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

And here's another scripture for your reference relating to this.

Acts 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Those are His people.

Tong
R0455