If what you did is what to you, a refutation is, then there is nothing that you post that isn't. At least for you.
Tong
R0466
Saved Or Predestined ???
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Tong
R0466
I had to read this four times to get any idea of what you might be saying.
What theory of atonement do you subscribe to? Perhaps that would help me understand where you are coming from.
I subscribe to no theory of atonement but to the atonement spoken of by scriptures and what scriptures says it is for.
Tong
R0467
And what is that? Because there are several things accomplished by the atonement mentioned in scripture. In the context of this discussion it would seem that the most important would be who it was intended for.
1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
Is it proper to discuss atonement under this thread?
I suggest we do it under the proper thread.
Tong
R0468
Of course it's proper. It's related to of the OP topic.
Limited atonement and individuals being predestined for salvation... one cannot exist without the other.
Strong's Concordance
kaphar: appease
Original Word: כָּפַר
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: kaphar
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-far')
Definition: to cover over, pacify, make propitiation
Strong's Concordance
hilasmos: propitiation
Original Word: ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hilasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-mos')
Definition: propitiation
Usage: a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.
In the OT, and in relation to the chosen people of God, that is, Israel, atonement is done by way of the Levite priests, first for their own sins and then for the people’s, according to the laws of atonement given by God for them to do, day by day, year by year. It demonstrates God's patience, forbearance, longsuffering. However, in the NT, there was no need for this, for Jesus Christ had made atonement or propitiation for their sins. But the good news is that this propitiation is not only for the Jews, but is also for the Gentiles. Now, we know that Jesus Christ is not only the high priest, but also the once and for all sacrifice of atonement for sins. So, unlike in the OT where atonement needs be made through the priest time and again, in the NT this is no longer the case. Jews and Gentiles alike, who were separated from God and are enemies and in hostility with God because of sin, the atoning sacrifice of Jesus had taken away this hostility so that all, not only the Jew but also the Gentiles, may be reconciled to God.
Now, atonement is not justification nor is it salvation from sin and hell. Atonement does not make the sinner righteous nor does it save him from sin and hell. Atonement must not be confused or mistaken as justification or salvation from sin and hell.
Tong
R0469
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You will get nowhere but real dizzy arguing with someone who believes that this is a great method of hermeneutics!
And how do we get from recognizing we need that atonement to being justified?
Both are lies, and neither are Strong's comments! You are seeking out someone that wants to sell a product by tickling your ears!
Strong's, 3722 kaphar
a prim. root; to cover
(the root of the word is directed man-ward, not God-ward. Kaphar is what Atonement does to reconcile man to God, not God to man. )
fig. to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel;- appease, make (an) atonement, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon, to pitch, purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile (-liiation).
Strong appends the same meaning to the Greek
2434 hilasmos
Atonement, i.e. (concr.) an expiator:--Propitiation.
(Once again, the REAL Strong's Concordance admits both a man-ward effect, and a God-ward effect. The PRIMARY means is Expiation, to take out or the way, to cover, remove "from" the sinner. By making man "at one" with God by taking sin out of the way, he can be said to be propitiated... to be pacified. There is not need to include God's "anger" or "wrath" that was poured out in Atonement. Propitiation is not an "action," as much as it is a "result" of Atonement once sin is Expiated.)
What does recognizing atonement has to do with justification or being justified?
Tong
R0470
Strong's Hebrew: 3722. כָּפַר (kaphar) -- appease
Strong's Greek: 2434. ἱλασμός (hilasmos) -- propitiation
As I said, atonement is not justification nor is it salvation from sin and hell. Atonement does not make the sinner righteous nor does it save him from sin and hell. Atonement must not be confused or mistaken as justification or salvation from sin and hell.
Tong
R0471
That is not Strong's Greek or Hebrew. You have a dishonest source using the name of a man who said otherwise. The original hilasmos in Strong's plainly says "atonement." Can you not see the changes? If you look at Historical Theology and follow how trends change truths, you can see when the majority audience in America caused publishers to make changes to sell books. Not many people will seek out books that challenge what they believe. Few will buy anything that does not feed their bias.
I would say that if Atonement does not reconcile us to God, we are all men most miserable.
Fine. How do we get from the atonement to justification?
Are you seriously saying there's no connection?
I would say it requires a progressive human response to God’s grace in order to authenticate final justification.
What is the atonement if not grace? And isn't the formula grace plus faith?
Those spinners never did anything for me except make me dizzy. I guess some like to spin though and never got over it!
That's right. Thayer's says it's an appeasing, propitiating. Other lexicons have the same sense and meaning.
Tong
R0472
I am not at all saying that atonement have no connection to justification or to salvation, for it definitely have. My question, "What does recognizing atonement has to do with justification or being justified?", is meant to point out that atonement is not justification. Atonement does not make the sinner righteous.
You asked "What is the atonement if not grace?" Of course it is. And it did not come from man.
Tong
R0473
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