who or what decides scripture interpretation - should we not take Jesus at His word in the literal sense that He did actually mean that anyone who is not a Christian must be born again as a Christian - any comments - twinc
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Scripture interpretation is both a skill and a gift. When Paul wrote to Timothy, he exhorted him to pay attention to doctrine, to teach and to correct. In fact, the word doctrine is found more times in the letters to Timothy than all the rest of the bible put together. Timothy was called in that capacity. He was called and evangelist (2Tim.4:5). Contrary to popular use of the word, an evangelist is not a person out there winning souls for the kingdom. There are five ministry gifts to the church. God gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, and teachers (Eph.4:11,12). Their role is to equip the saints (everyone else) for the work of ministry. The work of ministry includes winning souls. That is not limited to a special person. Everyone has a part to play.twinc said:who or what decides scripture interpretation - should we not take Jesus at His word in the literal sense that He did actually mean that anyone who is not a Christian must be born again as a Christian - any comments - twinc
The new birth is not just baptism. When we examine other passages we can see that it is the giving from God and receiving by us, a new nature through the new man (Eph.4:24). If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. That is the point of the second birth. God will not allow man in his present condition to remain in His creation. God is doing away with the species as it exists, and re creating us with His divine nature rather than the one we are born with. Our first birth was by water. The second is by the Holy Spirit. In physical birth, the woman goes into labor when her water breaks. However, if one wants to insist that it refers to water baptism, then we come into a legalistic loophole that I don't see in scripture. If you want to criticize the debating of scripture, then you are automatically involved in that which you criticize.twinc said:here we go again - He did not mean what He said ,He meant this,that and the other - some say this and some say that ad infinitum - Nicodemus had it not far wrong - we must be born again[baptised and hence a Christian]either in this life or a future life if not already a Christian - there will be no future life for Christians to be born again imho as I toy with the idea and meaning and explanation - twinc
williemac said: The new birth is not just baptism. When we examine other passages we can see that it is the giving from God and receiving by us, a new nature through the new man (Eph.4:24). If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. That is the point of the second birth. God will not allow man in his present condition to remain in His creation. God is doing away with the species as it exists, and re creating us with His divine nature rather than the one we are born with. Our first birth was by water. The second is by the Holy Spirit. In physical birth, the woman goes into labor when her water breaks. However, if one wants to insist that it refers to water baptism, then we come into a legalistic loophole that I don't see in scripture. If you want to criticize the debating of scripture, then you are automatically involved in that which you criticize.
Here's a few verse to look at twinc, maybe read a bit before and after each as well. Your looking for living water which is the Holy Spirit.twinc said:
as stated before here we go again and again - only as a Christian is it possible to be born of water and spirit - hence Baptism and Confirmation - born again as in the parable of the wedding feast and wedding garment first and foremost means putting on Christ - of course Christ did not say we must be born again as Christians because there were no Christians then but that imho is what He meant - twinc
The Bible is not only history, it is a book full of parables, allegories and mysteries so much so that NO MAN can find them all out and especially without God's Spirit to guide them to find all the hidden manna. To the average reader the book seems B o r i n g (Yawn) but that is to weed out the RIFF RAFF who do not really have a heart to seek God. Jesus said the mysteries are given to those who ask(for the Father's help), seek (the Father's wisdom) and knock and keep on knocking on the "Door" like a little child that has a million and one questions for their Daddy and cling to every Word that comes out of His mouth and take it as THE TRUTH.twinc said:who or what decides scripture interpretation - should we not take Jesus at His word in the literal sense that He did actually mean that anyone who is not a Christian must be born again as a Christian - any comments - twinc
Where are you getting this garble? We are called Christians because we have been born again. The new birth comes first.It is what makes us in Christ, therefore, Christians. water baptism and confirmation are merely symbols after the fact, that are not necessary for salvation. Read Rom.10:9. No baptism or confirmation mentioned. In fact, none mentioned in John 3:16, John 6:47, John 6:50,51 ( all words of Jesus), We are now confusing the traditions of men with what is important to God? (re:confirmation) God knows our heart. We need not confirm our faith in a ceremony. We receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith. The presence of the Spirit within the believer is proof enough of saving faith. He is given as a guaruntee of our inheritance (2Cor.5:5, Eph.1:14).twinc said:
as stated before here we go again and again - only as a Christian is it possible to be born of water and spirit - hence Baptism and Confirmation - born again as in the parable of the wedding feast and wedding garment first and foremost means putting on Christ - of course Christ did not say we must be born again as Christians because there were no Christians then but that imho is what He meant - twinc
Hi twinc,twinc said:who or what decides scripture interpretation - should we not take Jesus at His word in the literal sense that He did actually mean that anyone who is not a Christian must be born again as a Christian - any comments - twinc
Were you also baptized with FIRE when you first believed?williemac said:Where are you getting this garble? We are called Christians because we have been born again. The new birth comes first.It is what makes us in Christ, therefore, Christians. water baptism and confirmation are merely symbols after the fact, that are not necessary for salvation. Read Rom.10:9. No baptism or confirmation mentioned. In fact, none mentioned in John 3:16, John 6:47, John 6:50,51 ( all words of Jesus), We are now confusing the traditions of men with what is important to God? (re:confirmation) God knows our heart. We need not confirm our faith in a ceremony. We receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith. The presence of the Spirit within the believer is proof enough of saving faith. He is given as a guaruntee of our inheritance (2Cor.5:5, Eph.1:14).
The Greek word translated again actually means from above, i.e., born from above. 'Born again' is OK, but really lacks the clarity that 'born from above' has.Rocky Wiley said:The key word is 'again'. Born again of the water and the Spirit (Caps for God). It can not mean the water of natural birth because it said 'again'. The only water mentioned in baptism is natural water.
Hi,ChristRoseFromTheDead said:The Greek word translated again actually means from above, i.e., born from above. 'Born again' is OK, but really lacks the clarity that 'born from above' has.
G509 ἄνωθεν anothen (an'-o-then) adv.
1. from above
2. (by analogy) from the first
3. (by implication) anew
[from G507]
Rom_8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.Arnie Manitoba said:Jesus said you must be born of water and of Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God
I do not think he is referring to receiving the Holy Spirit as christians
For the following reason ....
We are not like the wind going everywhere we please without anyone telling where we come from or go to
John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
For that reason the "born of the Spirit" aspect must come after our physical death or something.
well said, brother.Axehead said:We make things so complicated, don't we? Scripture is not to be analyzed it is to be acted on.
John_7:17 If any man will (1) do his will, he shall (2) know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
In our society and human nature in general, we always wanted to know all the "ins and outs" before we act. That is the way we are with buying any big item whether it is a house or car, etc. We want to know all the details before we act.
But Jesus says, "Do what I tell you, and then you will know why!!"
Now, that takes faith. But, if you can't trust Jesus, who can you trust?