Yes.If you don't want to answer yes or no just say so. "Aren't you the one who believes Michael is your God and Savior?"
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Yes.If you don't want to answer yes or no just say so. "Aren't you the one who believes Michael is your God and Savior?"
Not the point of this thread please. Please read the OP carefully.Michael had to get the Lord to rebuke Satan - because he dared not do it.
Michael is not Jesus, obviously.
Jud 1:9 Not even the chief angel Michael did this. In his quarrel with the Devil, when they argued about who would have the body of Moses, Michael did not dare condemn the Devil with insulting words, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
IOW, you have no Scriptures that say Michael is God or our Savior. None! I have plenty that say God our Savior and Jesus our Savior.Michael (a symbolic name) is the Son (aka Jesus, E/Immanuel, David, Solomon, etc) of the Father, thus Deity (God, John 1:1c), the deliverer (Daniel 12:1) sent by the Father as His messenger to us ward. So, Yes, the Son is God (John 1:1c). Michael (a symbolic name) means He who is like God (the Father), see John 1:1b; Hebrew 1:3 "express image", whom the Son was with from/in eternity.
Who is the 'angel (the Son) of the LORD (the Father)" in Zechariah 3:1?
Is it verily the "LORD" (the Son) of vs 2, who says unto Satan, "The LORD (the Father) rebuke thee. ..."?, because the Son came on behalf of the Father to Joshua the High Priest.
Zechariah 3 and Jude are parallel in statements. Along with Daniel and Revelation. I show this in my linked studies in post 2 (this thread) - Michael is Jesus? .
Would you equate being "delivered" as being "saved" (2 Samuel 19:9; 1 Chronicles 11:14' Psalms 33:16):
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Again, here:
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon w as cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
I hope that is clear enough for you. Michael (symbolic name) is Christ (the Anointed of the Father, the Salvation which is of God). I have shown you from Daniel 12:1, and now Revelation 12:7-10.
Is the word "Dragon" used as a symbolic name of someone, or is there a natural lizard fighting in Heaven?
You see, verse 7 is written in parallel form, a 'chiasm'. If one is not symbolic, neither is the other, but if one is, so too the other.
So, using the Bible, in context, Revelation 12:7 and the word "Dragon" is a symbolic name and that symbol is identified in verse 9, correct, and the "Dragon" is really a symbolic name of "the Devil and Satan", yes?
Then the symbolic name of "Michael" should also be identified in the context too. Let's see:
The "Dragon" is "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan", and he is the one which "deceiveth", and is the "accuser" and "accused". It is so clear! Now, we need to look at "Michael" the same way, being consistent.
"Michael" is the "Christ" of the Father, is "the Lamb", is the "salvation" of God the Father, and is how people "overcame", and when Michael stands for the people, they are "delivered".
So, yes, the eternal and uncreated Son (Michael/Jesus) of the Father is "my Lord and my God" (John 20:28), "my Lord and Saviour" (2 Peter 1:11, 2:20, 3:2,18). I hope that has answered you as you need.
Then you have a different savior than I do. Michael is mentioned 2 times in the NT. Jesus is mentioned at least 170 times.Yes.
So you're challenging JW's? I hope some JW's address your challenge. Might be interesting.Scriptures that Arians, Semi-Arians, Unitarians, WTS/JW, etc., Don't Want You to Know About #1
This thread is not about "trinitarianism". I am not a 'Trinitarian' (Roman Catholic Definition), and do not accept Nicene Creedalism. Any argument started about "trinitarianism" or Nicea has left the OP topic, and is merely wasting time or straw-manning a position not held by the OP.
The scripture (KJB) teaches that there are 3 eternal Heavenly Persons/Beings that work together, the eternal Heavenly Trio. The eternal Heavenly family. JEHOVAH Elohiym.
[1] The Being/Person of the Father (aka "the Ancient of Days" (Daniel 7:9,13,22), "the only true God" ("τον μονον αληθινον θεον"; "ton monon alethinon theon" of John 17:3, "τον θεον", "ton theon" of John 1:1b); "God said" (Genesis 1:3) - JEHOVAHThe first text/passage to consider is:
[2] The Being/Person of the Son (aka "Jesus", "the Son of Man" (Matthew 16:13), "the only begotten Son" ("ο μονογενης υιος"; "o monogenes uios" of John 1:18), "the Word was God" ("θεος ην ο λογος"; "theos en o logos" of John 1:1c; "God made" (Genesis 1:7)) - Jesus JEHOVAH (Genesis 49:18; Exodus 14:13; 2 Chronicles 20:17; Jonah 2:9; Psalms 119:174)
[3] The Being/Person of the Holy Ghost/Spirit of JEHOVAH (aka "another Comforter" (John 14:16), "the Spirit of truth" (John 14:17), "the Comforter ... the Holy Ghost" (John 14:26); "the Spirit of God" (Genesis 1:2), "God saw" (Genesis 1:31)) - The Holy Spirit of JEHOVAH.
Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Zec 3:1 ויראני את־יהושׁע הכהן הגדול עמד לפני מלאך יהוה והשׂטן עמד על־ימינו לשׂטנו׃Three "LORD", "יהוה", "y'hwäh", "JEHOVAH" are mentioned in Zechariah 3:2.
Zec 3:2 ויאמר יהוה אל־השׂטן יגער יהוה בך השׂטן ויגער יהוה בך הבחר בירושׁלם הלוא זה אוד מצל מאשׁ׃
Zec 3:1 waYar'ëniy et-y'hôshuª haKohën haGädôl omëd lif'nëy mal'akh' y'hwäh w'haSä†än omëd al-y'miynô l'si†'nô
Zec 3:2 waYomer y'hwäh el-haSä†än yig'ar y'hwäh B'khä haSä†än w'yig'ar y'hwäh B'khä haBochër Biyrûshäläim hálô zeh ûd muTZäl mëësh
It is not one LORD mentioned 3 times, it is obvious that even one LORD that is standing on earth is speaking about another LORD in heaven, who is in agreement with another LORD. It is 3 Persons/Beings, each identified as an Individual or Personal "LORD".
Gen 19:24 (HOT) ויהוה המטיר על־סדם ועל־עמרה גפרית ואשׁ מאת יהוה מן־השׁמים׃
Gen 19:24 (HOT Translit.) wayhwäh him'†iyr al-š'dom w'al-ámoräh Gäf'riyt wäësh mëët y'hwäh min-haSHämäyim
Gen 19:24 (so called lxx) καὶ κύριος ἔβρεξεν ἐπὶ Σοδομα καὶ Γομορρα θεῖον καὶ πῦρ παρὰ κυρίου ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ
No Michael?Our next text/passage:
Tit 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:In Titus 2:11-15, we see that there is grace coming from God (του θεου), who is the Father of Jesus, and the grace that was sent by the Father is the Son Jesus Christ, the great God and our Saviour (του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων), even that blessed hope, who gave himself to redeem us.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Tit 2:11 επεφανη γαρ η χαρις του θεου η σωτηριος πασιν ανθρωποις
Tit 2:12 παιδευουσα ημας ινα αρνησαμενοι την ασεβειαν και τας κοσμικας επιθυμιας σωφρονως και δικαιως και ευσεβως ζησωμεν εν τω νυν αιωνι
Tit 2:13 προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου
Tit 2:14 ος εδωκεν εαυτον υπερ ημων ινα λυτρωσηται ημας απο πασης ανομιας και καθαριση εαυτω λαον περιουσιον ζηλωτην καλων εργων
Tit 2:15 ταυτα λαλει και παρακαλει και ελεγχε μετα πασης επιταγης μηδεις σου περιφρονειτω
That is two distinct Persons/Beings "tou theou", and the One sending the Other.
See above, # 28.There are a few options that your reply here indicate kcnalp; you either haven't read ReChoired's post; you cannot comprehend it or you just don't want to know.
And remember this too my friend . LET no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary and humility worshipping of angels . Beguile you of your REWARD .Then you have a different savior than I do. Michael is mentioned 2 times in the NT. Jesus is mentioned at least 170 times.
Colossians 2:18 is speaking about created 'angels' (messengers) such as Lucifer, or Gabriel, or mankind (2 Corinthians 11:13-15; Romans 1:25; 1 Timothy 4:1; Revelation 19:10, 22:8-9; &c). Colossians 2:18 is not speaking about the uncreated and eternal 'angels' (messengers) such as the Son of the Father, Michael/Jesus JEHOVAH (Malachi 3:1) and/or of the Holy Ghost/Spirit of JEHOVAH (Revelation 18:1), the two eternal Witnesses of the Father, His covering 'Angels'.And remember this too my friend . LET no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary and humility worshipping of angels . Beguile you of your REWARD .
Stick to CHRIST my friend . Micheal and Gabriel were both angels . Not JESUS . As you already said yourself .
No Scripture for Michael being your Savior? I didn't think so.Colossians 2:18 is speaking about created 'angels' (messengers) such as Lucifer, or Gabriel, or mankind (2 Corinthians 11:13-15; Romans 1:25; 1 Timothy 4:1; Revelation 19:10, 22:8-9; &c). Colossians 2:18 is not speaking about the uncreated and eternal 'angels' (messengers) such as the Son of the Father, Michael/Jesus JEHOVAH (Malachi 3:1) and/or of the Holy Ghost/Spirit of JEHOVAH (Revelation 18:1), the two eternal Witnesses of the Father, His covering 'Angels'.
And "Emmanuel" (yet another name for the Son of God, as Michael is, and David is, and Israel is, etc) is only mentioned once (Matthew 1:23). And? Does the scarcity of the name negate it's weight as evidence for a given position in scripture?Then you have a different savior than I do. Michael is mentioned 2 times in the NT. Jesus is mentioned at least 170 times.
It is not as the erroneous "trinity", which teaches "three in one" and that 'God' has no body or parts (any may see that here - Proof that Jesus is God ). It is as the Bible teaches, the eternal Heavenly trio (threefold), which agree in one.That Gods plurality is three in one, and not three separate and distinct Gods, is shown in just a few scriptures.
Now, consider the definition of “one” in regards God, the disciples, marriage, covenant and atonement:... Ergo, it’s evident that Jehovah is ONE God, manifest as three persons, and not three separate and distinct Gods.
Which explains why the scriptures say God is ONE God, not 3 Gods
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: ...
Now, consider the definition of “one” in regards God, the disciples, marriage, covenant and atonement:... Ergo, it’s evident that Jehovah is ONE God, manifest as three persons, and not three separate and distinct Gods.
Which explains why the scriptures say God is ONE God, not 3 Gods
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD ...
Now, consider the definition of “one” in regards God, the disciples, marriage, covenant and atonement:... Ergo, it’s evident that Jehovah is ONE God, manifest as three persons, and not three separate and distinct Gods.
Which explains why the scriptures say God is ONE God, not 3 Gods
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD ...
Now, consider the definition of “one” in regards God, the disciples, marriage, covenant and atonement:... Ergo, it’s evident that Jehovah is ONE God, manifest as three persons, and not three separate and distinct Gods.
Which explains why the scriptures say God is ONE God, not 3 Gods
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD ...
John the Apostle, knew from Genesis 1:1, and throughout, that there have eternally been 3 persons, 3 divine witnesses, acting together in a musical chord, a trio, all in harmony together, in at-one-ment.That Gods plurality is three in one, and not three separate and distinct Gods, is shown in just a few scriptures.
In Genesis 1 God, (Elohim in Hebrew, which translates literally as GODS) said let US make man in OUR image - which proves He’s God in plural form ...