Seven Lessons for John 1:1c

[tigger 2]

No one taught me this, nor have I seen it anywhere else. Calling me a liar does not avoid the fact that all my personal research for this, which took me a number of years, is available in the links I have given you. Even the first 5 'Lessons,' when carefully examined, show the truth of the matter. There are numerous examples for theos requiring the article to mean "God," and I have listed all of them in the original study.

It wasn't until I finished this study (and several other trinity 'proofs'), that I rejected the trinity. In all it took me nearly ten years (1982) before I was totally convinced. So your constant, insulting comments that I lied and really received this information elsewhere only underlines your ignorance.

There are a number of noted Trinitarian scholars and grammarians who point out the article irregularity with personal names, abstract nouns, mass nouns, and nouns modified by prepositions and genitives! I have given their names and presented a number of examples which show these irregularities for "prepositional" nominative nouns in the links you have ignored.

It's all your own choice. Remain ignorant of the actual intended meaning of John 1:1c if you wish. Just know that I have done exactly what Colwell, Harner, Wallace, et al. have done by examining examples to arrive at a proper conclusion (rule). The only difference is that I removed all the faulty examples and listed all (nearly twenty) the proper examples. So, examine the links, or examine Lesson A. with me step by step, or remain in your willing ignorance. Horse/water/drink.

 

[gadar perets]

I hope to examine John 1:1c to show that the very grammar used by John himself shows the actual meaning (whether ‘the Word was God,” or the “Word was a god.” (Please notice that whether the Logos is a person or a thing in this verse makes no difference as to the proper rendering of theos.)

As a non-trinitarian, I agree that John 1:1 does not teach a trinity. You have done quite a bit of research on the subject, but I believe the foundation upon which you built is in error; that foundation being that the "logos" is a person and not a thing. The Son is being read into the text of John 1:1-5. English Bible translations that preceded the KJV translate the passage differently. Here is Tyndale's translation;

John 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
2 The same was in the beginnynge with God.
3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.
4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men
5 and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes but the darcknes comprehended it not. (Bold mine)
​

Other pre-KJV versions such as The Thomas Matthew Bible, The Great Bible, The Geneva Bible and the Bishop's Bible translate it similarly.

The logos is the Father's spoken words and thoughts (a thing). The Father used His logos/words to create everything. Everything was spoken into existence by the Father (Almighty YHWH).

By translating John 1:1c as "a god", you make two gods. By reading the Son into the text, you make "the Word" a god and the one the "Word" was with a god. Using a small "g" does not change the fact that you have two gods.

​

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all. arguing over the Greek is no concern when it come to the Spirit. the bible clearly states that the Spirit is a plurality of himself. and this plurality is clearly identified in the very first verse of Genesis 1:1 as the Aleph and the Tav, in Hebrew. this is confirmed in Revelation, with the Greek, as the Alpha and the Omega. in English the beginning/First and the End/Last.

this plurality is witness of God in his prophet Isaiah. scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he". notice how Isaiah use "WITH" just like John in 1:1. here, the LORD said that "he", a single designation is the "First" with the "Last". the structure of the grammar is the same. so the question begs to be answered is how can one be the First and the Last? the Greek answer this with G243 Allos. "ANOTHER" of oneself, with the same nature/Sort. the W.E. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words clear this mystery up in John 1:1 as well as Genesis 1:1 by it's Greek definition.

second, the bible clearly eliminates any god, small case "g" in god with him. scripture, Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand". so that take care of any"god" WITH God in any way according to John 1:1.

also the bible eliminates any "God" and that's with the cap "G" in God, scripture, Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any".

if he, a single designation, say that there in no "god" or "God" beside him, why argue over any language? the structure of the language is clear. THERE IS NO GOD OR god BESIDE HIM.

PCY.

 

[gadar perets]

GINOLJC, to all. arguing over the Greek is no concern when it come to the Spirit. the bible clearly states that the Spirit is a plurality of himself. and this plurality is clearly identified in the very first verse of Genesis 1:1 as the Aleph and the Tav, in Hebrew. this is confirmed in Revelation, with the Greek, as the Alpha and the Omega. in English the beginning/First and the End/Last.

Aleph Tav is simply a marker for the definite direct object. It has no reference to Messiah. Not even in Revelation.

this plurality is witness of God in his prophet Isaiah. scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he". notice how Isaiah use "WITH" just like John in 1:1. here, the LORD said that "he", a single designation is the "First" with the "Last". the structure of the grammar is the same. so the question begs to be answered is how can one be the First and the Last? the Greek answer this with G243 Allos. "ANOTHER" of oneself, with the same nature/Sort. the W.E. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words clear this mystery up in John 1:1 as well as Genesis 1:1 by it's Greek definition.

Who is "the LORD", the Father or the Son? If the Father, why isn't the Son also the "first". If the Son, who is the "last"?

second, the bible clearly eliminates any god, small case "g" in god with him. scripture, Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand". so that take care of any"god" WITH God in any way according to John 1:1.

also the bible eliminates any "God" and that's with the cap "G" in God, scripture, Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any".

if he, a single designation, say that there in no "god" or "God" beside him, why argue over any language? the structure of the language is clear. THERE IS NO GOD OR god BESIDE HIM.

PCY.

Exactly. These verses disprove the belief that Yeshua is a god or God. If the Son was the God called the "Word" and that "Word" was "with" God, then that makes two Gods.

 

[101G]

Aleph Tav is simply a marker for the direct object. It has no reference to Messiah. Not even in Revelation.


Who is "the LORD", the Father or the Son? If the Father, why isn't the Son also the "first". If the Son, who is the "last"?


Exactly. These verses disprove the belief that Yeshua is a god or God. If the Son was the God called the "Word" and that "Word" was "with" God, then that makes two Gods.

First thanks for your response. second, I must disagree with your assessment of Aleph and Tav.
Third, the Lord Jesus is called the First see Revelation 1:17 & 18. and with that knowledge the first and the last is the Alpha and the Omega, who is the which is which was and that which is to come.

now the LORD all caps is the Saviour, do you agree? y or n

PCY

 

[gadar perets]

First thanks for your response. second, I must disagree with your assessment of Aleph and Tav.
Third, the Lord Jesus is called the First see Revelation 1:17 & 18. and with that knowledge the first and the last is the Alpha and the Omega, who is the which is which was and that which is to come.

I have no problem with him being called the first and the last. That is a title that YHWH and Yeshua share just as they share the title "Saviour" and "Lord". They are each the first and last in their own way. The Son is the first and last person to ever be directly begotten by YHWH. Only the Father bears the titles "Alpha and Omega" and "which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty".

now the LORD all caps is the Saviour, do you agree? y or n

PCY

Yes, He is the Saviour, but He is not the Son. "The LORD" refers to "YHWH" who is Yeshua's Father (Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33). YHWH is the ultimate Saviour of the universe and He used His Son Yeshua to do the saving work. That makes Yeshua our Saviour as well. We have two Saviours, but only one was/is called YHWH. A time will come when Yeshua will bear the name "YHWH Our Righteousness", but while he was with us and prior to his birth he did NOT bear that name. Also, simply because he will bear the name "YHWH Our Righteousness" does not make him YHWH any more than Jehu is YHWH simply because his name means "Yah is He".

 

[101G]

I have no problem with him being called the first and the last. That is a title that YHWH and Yeshua share just as they share the title "Saviour" and "Lord". They are each the first and last in their own way. The Son is the first and last person to ever be directly begotten by YHWH. Only the Father bears the titles "Alpha and Omega" and "which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty".

Thanks for the response. second, I must disagree with your assessment that they "share" the titles first and last. there is only ONE "First" because that's what FIRST mean. and there is only ONE Saviour not two or three. second, concering "begotten" is that biologically? I'll be looking for that answer.

then you said, "Only the Father bears the titles "Alpha and Omega". well if this is true, please tell us how the Father died. because the Alpha and the Omega is the First and the Last, supportive Scripture, Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last". since you said that ONLY the Father is the Alpha and Omega, this title is connected to the First and the Last. and the first and the Last died. scripture, Revelation 1:17 & 18 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death".

to be sure that we have the right Alpha and Omega, who is also the first and the last (because you said that they shared ther titles). we just need to go back to verse 11. Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea". so we have the right Alpha and Omega.

Now, you said that ONLY the Father hold this title, so please tell us when the Father died.

will be looking for that answer, thanks in advance.

PCY.

 

[gadar perets]

Thanks for the response. second, I must disagree with your assessment that they "share" the titles first and last. there is only ONE "First" because that's what FIRST mean. and there is only ONE Saviour not two or three. second, concering "begotten" is that biologically? I'll be looking for that answer.

Yes, there is only one first (in a particular category), but there can be many firsts if there are many categories, YHWH is the first and last uncreated being. Yeshua is the first and last being to ever be directly begotten in a woman’s womb by YHWH.

When YHWH said, “ I, even I, am YHWH; and beside me there is no savior”, there were other saviours (2 Kings 13:5; Nehemiah 9:27). He would also send saviours in the future other than Yeshua (Obadiah 1:21). Was YHWH wrong to say there is no other savior? Of course not. Man’s interpretation is wrong. What YHWH meant was that He is the ultimate Saviour and no other. However, He saves through others that He sends as saviours (including Yeshua).

then you said, "Only the Father bears the titles "Alpha and Omega". well if this is true, please tell us how the Father died. because the Alpha and the Omega is the First and the Last, supportive Scripture, Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last". since you said that ONLY the Father is the Alpha and Omega, this title is connected to the First and the Last. and the first and the Last died. scripture, Revelation 1:17 & 18 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death".

As I said, the Father and the Son share the title “first and last”. So if a verse has that title in it, we must determine who it is referring to based on the context. For example, the words of Revelation 1:8 are not the words of Yeshua and should not be printed in red in modern Bibles.
John is giving a greeting starting in Revelation 1:4 and ending in verse seven. Verse four is a greeting from the Father “which is, and which was, and which is to come.” Verse five is a greeting from Yeshua the Messiah. Verse eight is spoken by the Father which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” The title “who was, and who is, and who is to come” belongs only to the Father.

Revelation 4:8-11 read;

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honor and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who lives for ever and ever. The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that lives for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for you have created all things, and for your pleasure they are and were created.​

Then, in Revelation 5:6-7, we read;

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
​

The Lamb (Yeshua) is not the Creator who sits on the throne, the Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.

As for Revelation 22:13, the verse usually appears in red letters because the translators thought Yeshua was speaking. However, notice the context including verse 12.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
​

We know Yeshua is coming, however, did you know YHWH is coming as well?

Isaiah 40:10 Behold, Adonai YHWH will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him.
​

“His arm” is a reference to Yeshua. They are both coming in a sense. Yeshua will come as YHWH’s representative. When he comes, it will be as though YHWH (Yeshua’s Father and Yeshua's God) will come as well.

 

[gadar perets]

to be sure that we have the right Alpha and Omega, who is also the first and the last (because you said that they shared ther titles). we just need to go back to verse 11. Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea". so we have the right Alpha and Omega.

Now, you said that ONLY the Father hold this title, so please tell us when the Father died.

will be looking for that answer, thanks in advance.

Revelation 1:11 seems to be the words of Yeshua based on the context of the ensuing verses. However, upon closer inspection you will see that is not true. Revelation 1:10 reads,

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.
​

We are not told whose voice that is, but it is compared to that of a trumpet. John then turns around to see who was talking and the voice says,

I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What you see, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 1:12 And I did turn to see the voice that did speak with me, and having turned, I saw seven golden lamp-stands,​

The next four verses describe the glorified Savior, Messiah Yeshua.

Revelation 1:13-16 and in the midst of the seven lamp-stands, one like to a son of man, clothed to the foot, and girt round at the breast with a golden girdle, and his head and hairs white, as if white wool–as snow, and his eyes as a flame of fire; and his feet like to fine brass, as in a furnace having been fired, and his voice as a sound of many waters, and having in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword is proceeding, and his countenance is as the sun shining in its might.
​

Notice Messiah’s voice is described as “a sound of many waters.” However, the voice in verse 10 sounded like a trumpet. These voices come from two different individuals. So, we are not told whose voice John heard in Rev 1:11, but we should not assume the trumpet voice was Yeshua’s if we know for a fact that his voice sounds like many waters. It is the being whose voice was as a trumpet that owns the title Alpha and Omega.

There are thousands of OT occurrences where aleph and tav appear to have no relation to Messiah whatsoever. For example:

1 Chronicles 6:65 – And they gave by lot out of the tribe of the children of Judah, and out of the tribe of the children of Simeon, and out of the tribe of the children of Benjamin, (aleph tav) these cities, which are called by their names.
​

We can try to read Messiah into this verse if we so choose, but that is not how we are to arrive at truth. Many believers are reading Messiah into texts that contain aleph tav.

The bottom line is this; we are not to read things into the text and thereby establish our man-made doctrines. We are not told anywhere in scripture that the two letters “aleph tav” as found throughout the Old Testament, refer to Messiah Yeshua. That is wishful thinking on the part of those who want to prove that either Yeshua is YHWH or that Yeshua preexisted as a spirit being prior to his earthly birth. Let’s stick to what the scriptures actually say and not add to them, to the glory of YHWH.

 

[GodsGrace]

As a non-trinitarian, I agree that John 1:1 does not teach a trinity. You have done quite a bit of research on the subject, but I believe the foundation upon which you built is in error; that foundation being that the "logos" is a person and not a thing. The Son is being read into the text of John 1:1-5. English Bible translations that preceded the KJV translate the passage differently. Here is Tyndale's translation;

John 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
2 The same was in the beginnynge with God.
3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.
4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men
5 and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes but the darcknes comprehended it not. (Bold mine)
​

Other pre-KJV versions such as The Thomas Matthew Bible, The Great Bible, The Geneva Bible and the Bishop's Bible translate it similarly.

The logos is the Father's spoken words and thoughts (a thing). The Father used His logos/words to create everything. Everything was spoken into existence by the Father (Almighty YHWH).

By translating John 1:1c as "a god", you make two gods. By reading the Son into the text, you make "the Word" a god and the one the "Word" was with a god. Using a small "g" does not change the fact that you have two gods.

​

Hi gadar perets,

I'm marking this for alerts.
Finding all this very interesting.

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!
Looking forward to your posts...

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all. in respond to your post #28, you said,

Yes, there is only one first (in a particular category), but there can be many firsts if there are many categories, YHWH is the first and last uncreated being. Yeshua is the first and last being to ever be directly begotten in a woman’s womb by YHWH.

I see three ERRORS on your part in just this one passage of respond
#1. "one first in a particular category". well there is no one else in the God category, scripture, Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily". so the Lord Jesus is in the God category, which make your statement false.

#2. "but there can be many firsts if there are many categories". the Godhead is only one category, and everything else is a creation of his. and the Lord Jesus is clearly in this ONLY ONE category. so again your Statement is false.

#3. "YHWH is the first and last uncreated being. Yeshua is the first and last being to ever be directly begotten in a woman’s womb by YHWH". again another false statement, being a two fold ERROR.
A. the use of the word "Being". understand a being is the state or fact of existing; existence, meaning self sustaining. and we as "CREATURES" have our being in him/the Spirit, meaning we exist because of him. supportive scripture, Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring". see, only the Spirit/God is the only being, everything else, including us are his creation. he sustain us, not we him.
B. "Yeshua is the first and last being to ever be directly begotten in a woman’s womb by YHWH". again another False statement. Yeshua/Jesus is never begotten, he have no biological mother, or father. only his BODY (that he came in) was begotten in the woman's womb, and it was by the HOLY GHOST. spirits are not begotten, they are given by God/the Holy Spirit who is Father of us all, YES, the Holy Spirit. supportive scripture. Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein". understand this, a woman can only produce flesh and blood, which a spirit is not. with a spirit there is nothing to push out, a spirit is immaterial, and it have to be GIVEN by the Spirit. and to back this up, there is a difference between a Child/flesh and blood and the Son/ spirit. scripture, Isaiah 9:6a "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace".
understand, a child/flesh and blood the OUTWARD MAN is Born. but the Son/spirit the IN-WARD MAN is "given", not born. see the difference now. God/Yeshua has no mommy, or daddy, biologically speaking. then you said,

When YHWH said, “ I, even I, am YHWH; and beside me there is no savior”, there were other saviours (2 Kings 13:5; Nehemiah 9:27). He would also send saviours in the future other than Yeshua (Obadiah 1:21). Was YHWH wrong to say there is no other savior? Of course not. Man’s interpretation is wrong. What YHWH meant was that He is the ultimate Saviour and no other. However, He saves through others that He sends as saviours (including Yeshua).

this is a classic Unitarian ERROR and you have made it also. these other saviours was human saviours that saved men from PHYSICAL BONDAGE. Israel sinned over and over, and God would send human saviour to relieved them of their Physical Captors. when the root of the problem was sin (a spiritual condition). understand, no man/human can fight a spirit and deliver one from SPIRITUAL BONDAGE. this is why the messiah was rejected. they was looking for those same human physical saviours you mention by scripture to save then from the Romans, physically. when in fact messiah came to make/Deliver them FREE from spiritual bondage. it takes a Spirit to deliver one Spiritually from spiritual bondage. just as now, we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against wickedness in high places. see, no mere human, flesh and blood man, can fight a spirit. they can only fight other flesh and blood humans. this is the failing of the Unitarian doctrine, and yours. YOU CAN'T SEND A MAN TO DO GOD JOB...

second, he, YESHUA is the only saviour. and he (the one whom you calls YHWH) saves NOT, again, NOT through others. listen to the record, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me". and his "OWN" arm is Yeshua, (God shared in Flesh) see Isaiah chapter 53. it was your YHWH the LORD, who Came in flesh to save mandkind.

then you tried to follow up with some Revelation scriptures. as well in Post #29 above. let's take a test and eliminate this notion that Yeshua is not the LORD. and Let's see exactly who Yeshua is and who is coming.
Question, "The letters to the Seven Churches... who was addressing them? Yeshua right. well if One examine the ending of each letter one will find this, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches". see, Yeshua is the LORD, or the one whom you calls YHWH.

It's the Spirit, the HOLY SPIRIT who is speaking to the Churches. Yeshua is the Holy Spirit, the true and ONLY LIVING God.

I suggest you read your bible more with the Holy Ghost and get a better understanding. no put down, but only a helpful suggestion.

PCY.

 

[gadar perets]

I see three ERRORS on your part in just this one passage of respond
#1. "one first in a particular category". well there is no one else in the God category, scripture, Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily". so the Lord Jesus is in the God category, which make your statement false.

The fullness of the Deity was dwelling IN Yeshua. That does not mean Yeshua was that Deity. That Deity also dwells in all believers, but that does not make them that Deity.

God [Yeshua Father YHWH] was in Messiah reconciling the world to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19). [Brackets mine throughout]
​

And now God is in us spreading that good news to the world.

#2. "but there can be many firsts if there are many categories". the Godhead is only one category, and everything else is a creation of his. and the Lord Jesus is clearly in this ONLY ONE category. so again your Statement is false.

Even if you want to limit this to just one category, they are still firsts or lasts in different ways unless you choose to not believe the Father and Son are two different beings/persons.

#3. "YHWH is the first and last uncreated being. Yeshua is the first and last being to ever be directly begotten in a woman’s womb by YHWH". again another false statement, being a two fold ERROR.
A. the use of the word "Being". understand a being is the state or fact of existing; existence, meaning self sustaining. and we as "CREATURES" have our being in him/the Spirit, meaning we exist because of him. supportive scripture, Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring". see, only the Spirit/God is the only being, everything else, including us are his creation. he sustain us, not we him.

YHWH is self-existent and Yeshua exists through YHWH. They both exist. Therefore, they are both beings.

B. "Yeshua is the first and last being to ever be directly begotten in a woman’s womb by YHWH". again another False statement. Yeshua/Jesus is never begotten, he have no biological mother, or father. only his BODY (that he came in) was begotten in the woman's womb, and it was by the HOLY GHOST. spirits are not begotten, they are given by God/the Holy Spirit who is Father of us all, YES, the Holy Spirit. supportive scripture. Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein". understand this, a woman can only produce flesh and blood, which a spirit is not. with a spirit there is nothing to push out, a spirit is immaterial, and it have to be GIVEN by the Spirit. and to back this up, there is a difference between a Child/flesh and blood and the Son/ spirit. scripture, Isaiah 9:6a "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace".
understand, a child/flesh and blood the OUTWARD MAN is Born. but the Son/spirit the IN-WARD MAN is "given", not born. see the difference now. God/Yeshua has no mommy, or daddy, biologically speaking.

Yeshua was a flesh and blood man, not a spirit. Therefore, he was begotten as it is written. You contradicted yourself above when you said, "Yeshua/Jesus is never begotten", but then you said, "only his BODY (that he came in) was begotten in the woman's womb". As for Isaiah 9:6, the Hebrew reads, "aviad" meaning "father of eternity", not "everlasting Father". He is the father of eternity because eternal life comes to us through him, the author and finisher of our faith.

Yeshua's Father is YHWH whether you choose to believe that or not. YHWH made him to be a flesh and blood man. He was born again, born from above at his resurrection when he was begotten unto eternal life (Acts 13:33).

this is a classic Unitarian ERROR and you have made it also. these other saviours was human saviours that saved men from PHYSICAL BONDAGE. Israel sinned over and over, and God would send human saviour to relieved them of their Physical Captors. when the root of the problem was sin (a spiritual condition). understand, no man/human can fight a spirit and deliver one from SPIRITUAL BONDAGE. this is why the messiah was rejected. they was looking for those same human physical saviours you mention by scripture to save then from the Romans, physically. when in fact messiah came to make/Deliver them FREE from spiritual bondage. it takes a Spirit to deliver one Spiritually from spiritual bondage. just as now, we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against wickedness in high places. see, no mere human, flesh and blood man, can fight a spirit. they can only fight other flesh and blood humans. this is the failing of the Unitarian doctrine, and yours. YOU CAN'T SEND A MAN TO DO GOD JOB...

Isaiah 43:11 does not exclude human saviours as you do. YHWH is the ultimate Saviour period.

second, he, YESHUA is the only saviour. and he (the one whom you calls YHWH) saves NOT, again, NOT through others. listen to the record, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me". and his "OWN" arm is Yeshua, (God shared in Flesh) see Isaiah chapter 53. it was your YHWH the LORD, who Came in flesh to save mandkind.

Act 5:31 Him hath God [Father YHWH] exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God [Father YHWH] according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Yeshua:​

If God made Yeshua to be our Saviour, then that makes Yeshua's Father the ultimate Saviour. He saved us by making His Son our Saviour.

then you tried to follow up with some Revelation scriptures. as well in Post #29 above. let's take a test and eliminate this notion that Yeshua is not the LORD. and Let's see exactly who Yeshua is and who is coming.
Question, "The letters to the Seven Churches... who was addressing them? Yeshua right. well if One examine the ending of each letter one will find this, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches". see, Yeshua is the LORD, or the one whom you calls YHWH.

It's the Spirit, the HOLY SPIRIT who is speaking to the Churches. Yeshua is the Holy Spirit, the true and ONLY LIVING God.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Yeshua Messiah, which God [Father YHWH] gave unto him [through the power of His Holy Spirit], to shew unto his servants ...​

Revelation 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. [YHWH's Holy Spirit that gave Yeshua the Revelation in the first place].​

 

[VictoryinJesus]

As a non-trinitarian, I agree that John 1:1 does not teach a trinity. You have done quite a bit of research on the subject, but I believe the foundation upon which you built is in error; that foundation being that the "logos" is a person and not a thing. The Son is being read into the text of John 1:1-5. English Bible translations that preceded the KJV translate the passage differently. Here is Tyndale's translation;

John 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
2 The same was in the beginnynge with God.
3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.
4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men
5 and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes but the darcknes comprehended it not. (Bold mine)
​

Other pre-KJV versions such as The Thomas Matthew Bible, The Great Bible, The Geneva Bible and the Bishop's Bible translate it similarly.

The logos is the Father's spoken words and thoughts (a thing). The Father used His logos/words to create everything. Everything was spoken into existence by the Father (Almighty YHWH).

By translating John 1:1c as "a god", you make two gods. By reading the Son into the text, you make "the Word" a god and the one the "Word" was with a god. Using a small "g" does not change the fact that you have two gods.

​

While I understand your perspective, I ask you to consider:

Hebrews 10:7
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.


Luke 24:44-46
[44] And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. [45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, [46] And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:


John 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
2 The same was in the beginnynge with God.
3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.
4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men
5 and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes but the darcknes comprehended it not. (Bold mine)

Psalm 40:7-8 KJV
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, [8] I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. The Son tells us: the "volume" is written of me. "It is written". It is written of "me", Christ told us. So, I agree there is ONE God and in the personhood of Jesus Christ That One God displayed openly for all, His mighty love which is power. If we say Christ (God in the flesh) is not the one true living God, then yes, we serve two God's, not One.


John 1:1 KJV
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


"Volume"

Greek: κεφαλίς
Transliteration: kephalis
Pronunciation: kef-al-is'
Definition: From G2776; properly a knob that is (by implication) a roll (by extension from the end of a stick on which the manuscriptwas rolled): - volume.

 

[gadar perets]

While I understand your perspective, I ask you to consider:

Hebrews 10:7
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

...

Psalm 40:7-8 KJV
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, [8] I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. The Son tells us: the "volume" is written of me. "It is written". It is written of "me", Christ told us. So, I agree there is ONE God and in the personhood of Jesus Christ That One God displayed openly for all, His mighty love which is power. If we say Christ (God in the flesh) is not the one true living God, then yes, we serve two God's, not One.

I believe the "volume" referred to is the Old Testament. However, it doesn't mean the entire OT is referring to Yeshua, but only those verses that are shadows, types, or prophecies concerning him. Notice Psalm 40:8 says, "O my God". Yeshua has a God. Yeshua said the same thing in the NT (Matthew 27:46; John 20:17; Revelation 3:12). If he is God as well, then we have two Gods. The "God" referred to in that verse is the same God referred to throughout the OT.

 

[101G]

First, thanks for your response.

The fullness of the Deity was dwelling IN Yeshua. That does not mean Yeshua was that Deity. That Deity also dwells in all believers, but that does not make them that Deity.

you ERROR again, John 1:10-14 "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth".

JESUS is the Word, so what was JESUS before he was made FLESH, meaning the Body that is the fullness of the Godhead. see JESUS is Spirit in a Body.

YHWH is self-existent and Yeshua exists through YHWH. They both exist. Therefore, they are both beings.

this is another classic mistake, Yeshua exists through YHWH? if so then according to you Yeshua is not a BEING. because a BEING is self existing. so another false statement from you.

Isaiah 43:11 does not exclude human saviours as you do. YHWH is the ultimate Saviour period.

I guess you didn't read your bible. nor did you understand that only human saviour can only deliver from physical bondage. and two the LORD Jesus is the ONLY Saviour.

Act 5:31 Him hath God [Father YHWH] exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God [Father YHWH] according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Yeshua:
If God made Yeshua to be our Saviour, then that makes Yeshua's Father the ultimate Saviour. He saved us by making His Son our Saviour.

Again did you not hear, or read, listen, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me". did you not hear the words of the LORD that his "OWN" ARM brought Salvation to him. his OWN ARM is Yeshua. meaning the spirit himself in Flesh. my God how hard is it to understand?.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Yeshua Messiah, which God [Father YHWH] gave unto him [through the power of His Holy Spirit], to shew unto his servants ...
Revelation 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. [YHWH's Holy Spirit that gave Yeshua the Revelation in the first place].

ok, since you want to add to the scriptures, question "Who sent HIS angel to John?". was it the, one who you call YHWH, or the Holy Spirit, or the One whom you call Yeshua.

I'll be looking for that answer.

PCY

 

[101G]

I believe the "volume" referred to is the Old Testament. However, it doesn't mean the entire OT is referring to Yeshua, but only those verses that are shadows, types, or prophecies concerning him. Notice Psalm 40:8 says, "O my God". Yeshua has a God. Yeshua said the same thing in the NT (Matthew 27:46; John 20:17; Revelation 3:12). If he is God as well, then we have two Gods. The "God" referred to in that verse is the same God referred to throughout the OT.

another ERROR on your part, the OT is the Law and the Prophets. Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." this is the "volume".

Notice Psalm 40:8 says, "O my God". Yeshua has a God. ERROR. Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom". O God is the definite Article. meaning the only God. when the son says "MY" Father, he showing possession, meaning he is saying "MY" Spirit. and when the father, the Spirit say my Son, he;s saying "MY" body again showing possession. I see you lack in knowledge of God.

PCY.

 

[gadar perets]

you ERROR again, John 1:10-14 "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth".

First, how would you like it if I rudely began each reply to you with, "ERROR"! Try being more civil and just present your view or your refutation.

Yes, the word was made flesh. Yeshua is now the "Word" (logos). He was not the word/logos before his conception.

JESUS is the Word, so what was JESUS before he was made FLESH, meaning the Body that is the fullness of the Godhead. see JESUS is Spirit in a Body.

He was non-existent except in YHWH's plan of salvation. If he was a Spirit in a body (the Holy Spirit as you tried to teach earlier), then why did he have to receive the Holy Spirit? If he is the Holy Spirit, then why does the Holy Spirit come to us from the Father instead of the Son (John 15:26)?

this is another classic mistake, Yeshua exists through YHWH? if so then according to you Yeshua is not a BEING. because a BEING is self existing. so another false statement from you.

A being is not self-existent. A being simply exists. Or as you said, "understand a being is the state or fact of existing". I did not say a being is self existing. I said YHWH is self existing. The mere fact that He exists makes Him a being.

Again did you not hear, or read, listen, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me". did you not hear the words of the LORD that his "OWN" ARM brought Salvation to him. his OWN ARM is Yeshua. meaning the spirit himself in Flesh. my God how hard is it to understand?.

What does that mean? That Yeshua saved YHWH (as though YHWH needs saving) LOL? The verse simply means that YHWH, through His appointed Saviour Yeshua, saved His people unto Himself.

ok, since you want to add to the scriptures, question "Who sent HIS angel to John?". was it the, one who you call YHWH, or the Holy Spirit, or the One whom you call Yeshua.

I'll be looking for that answer.

PCY

Yeshua.

 

[gadar perets]

another ERROR on your part, the OT is the Law and the Prophets. Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." this is the "volume".

Are you telling me the OT does not include the writings? The verse does not say, "the volume of the books". It is referring to one book as a whole, the entirety of OT Scriptures.

Notice Psalm 40:8 says, "O my God". Yeshua has a God. ERROR. Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom". O God is the definite Article. meaning the only God. when the son says "MY" Father, he showing possession, meaning he is saying "MY" Spirit. and when the father, the Spirit say my Son, he;s saying "MY" body again showing possession. I see you lack in knowledge of God.

PCY.

You mean I lack in the false teachings of men.

 

[101G]

My God you just don't understand do you. the volume is the book concering Christ. Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me". OT scripture, Psalms 40:7 "Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me".

You mean I lack in the false teachings of men

you say.

 

[Helen]

@Wormwood Thank you Wormwood.