Seven Years of Tribulation,

[Trekson]

Hi Saint, Prophetically speaking, National Israel, made of the end-time believing remnant, has a future earthly destiny to re-populate the earth (along with some gentiles) and to act as His priests (the 144,000+) during the millennium. The church (spiritual Israel) has a heavenly destiny although I believe we will be going back and forth from heaven to earth as Christ wills, imo and yes some of us saints will be reigning on earth, but certainly not all.

 

[mark s]

kaotic. "We" are pre-wrathers. There is very little scriptural support for the "7th trump" to be the last trump of 1 Cor. 15.

Mark, You are correct in your clarification of Matt. 24:22 but, imo, God isn't concerned that "no flesh" survive. He is only concerned with His elect in this verse, only because at this time the church is still included with the "no flesh". Once the church is raptured than the judgments begin upon all remaining unrepentant flesh and the death to humanity will be massive.

Now you run into who the chosen of Matt 24 are. The definitive answer is that they are contrasted to "the nations" in Matt 25. There are two gatherings when Jesus returns, the gathering of the chosen, and the gathering of the nations. Considering that there are 'righteous' included in the gathering of the nations, the chosen are not delineated as simply 'the righteous', i.e., the church. That doesn't work.

So who would be considered the chosen people, considering that 'the nations' will also be gathered?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Another thing we must remember; the church (assembly) is Israel and Israel is the church. People want to seperate the two and you can't! God's Holy people is and always has been Israel and you better hope that you belong!

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Hi Bob,

When Jesus returns, and establishes His kingdom, the 12 Apostles will rule over the 12 tribes. Who are the twelve tribes?

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[revturmoil]

Now you run into who the chosen of Matt 24 are. The definitive answer is that they are contrasted to "the nations" in Matt 25. There are two gatherings when Jesus returns, the gathering of the chosen, and the gathering of the nations. Considering that there are 'righteous' included in the gathering of the nations, the chosen are not delineated as simply 'the righteous', i.e., the church. That doesn't work.

So who would be considered the chosen people, considering that 'the nations' will also be gathered?

Love in Christ,
Mark



Hi Bob,

When Jesus returns, and establishes His kingdom, the 12 Apostles will rule over the 12 tribes. Who are the twelve tribes?

Love in Christ,
Mark

The gathering of all nations is the separation of the sheep and goats. That's not the same as the gathering of the saints.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Mark, Matt. 24:22 speaks of the "elect" which I'm assuming you mean by chosen. 1Peter. 1:1-2 (NIV)defines them for us: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, [sup]2 [/sup]who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.

The gathering of the nations (all human survivors after Armageddon) in Matt. 25 is for the sheep and goat judgment (believers have previously been gathered at the rapture and judged between the timing of the rapture and when Christ's 2nd physical advent occurs). They will be judged according to the parameters of Matt. 25:35-36. The human Israeli and Gentile sheep shall be allowed to enter the millennium, the goats won't.

well what do ya know, kaotic and I actually agree on a small point of prophecy.

 

[mark s]

Considering that both gatherings occur when Jesus returns in glory, and considering that both gatherings contain the saved - the sheep are specifically called "righteous", you've got believers included in the nations.

There only one way this really works.

 

[revturmoil]

Considering that both gatherings occur when Jesus returns in glory, and considering that both gatherings contain the saved - the sheep are specifically called "righteous", you've got believers included in the nations.

There only one way this really works.

Obviously there's only one way it works for you.

 

[mark s]

Its a simple thing. Apply logic.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Mark, Your words: "Considering that both gatherings occur when Jesus returns in glory, and considering that both gatherings contain the saved - the sheep are specifically called "righteous", you've got believers included in the nations."

Pre-wrath believes the rapture and the gathering you speak of are two separate events. The "righteous" are called that because of their "works" per Matt. 25:35-46, NOT because of their belief. Yes, it is possible that some will become believers between the rapture and the end of Armageddon but Rev. 9:20-21 suggests otherwise. I honestly don't know if the 144,000 and the believing remnant that go into hiding for 3 1/2 yrs. per Rev. 12:14 will go through this judgment but I believe they will. Their's is a different destiny than the raptured church, that's all.

 

[mark s]

Firstly . . . there are a number of variations between "pre-wrath" theories.

Interesting that you propose a works based righteousness. Not that I am debating that particular point, just to call attention to it. This is what the Scripture describes.

But I do disagree with you specifically on one point. Both gatherings occur at the time that Jesus comes in glory. There isn't a significant gap of time between them.

And . . . btw . . . I most certainly believe that the rapture is separate from either of these gatherings. Logic does not allow that it could be either of them. That is, if you take the words for what they are saying.

 

[Saint]

Now you run into who the chosen of Matt 24 are. The definitive answer is that they are contrasted to "the nations" in Matt 25. There are two gatherings when Jesus returns, the gathering of the chosen, and the gathering of the nations. Considering that there are 'righteous' included in the gathering of the nations, the chosen are not delineated as simply 'the righteous', i.e., the church. That doesn't work.

So who would be considered the chosen people, considering that 'the nations' will also be gathered?

Love in Christ,
Mark



Hi Bob,

When Jesus returns, and establishes His kingdom, the 12 Apostles will rule over the 12 tribes. Who are the twelve tribes?

Love in Christ,
Mark

The House of Jacob Mark which is made up of the House of Ephraim and the House of Judah! The House of Ephraim was dispersed into the world and are yet to be regather. What does the word Gentile imply? It simply implies one not of the Jewish Faith and in most cased is applied to the Lost House of Israel who were dispersed into the world forgetting who they were and no longer followed the Torah.

In Yeshus Messiah,

Bob

 

[Trekson]

Hi Mark, I'm not sure I understand your point then. Your words: But I do disagree with you specifically on one point. Both gatherings occur at the time that Jesus comes in glory. There isn't a significant gap of time between them.


I'm assuming we are speaking of Matt. 25. There is only one gathering. It will be at the sheep and goat judgment where it will be decided who is a sheep and who is a goat. They are not gathered separately.

 

[rand]

remember the ten vergins? five of them had oil in their vessels and their lamps, five of them had no oil. and when the anousment was made that the groome is coming, the five without the oil wanted the five with the oil to give them some. Oil represents the Holy Spirit. You can't give someone the Holy Spirit, they have to receive Him for themselves. Those with the Holy Spirit got to go to the party, but those without, did not. I have the Holy Spirit, so I'm going to the party. Praise God for Jesus.

 

[us2are1]

Many speak of 7 coming years of Tribulation.

What verse or verses of Scripture mentions this 7 years of coming tribulation ?

It is made up by men and not in scripture. The scripture states a time, times and half time which is three and a half years. It states forty two months which is also three and a half years and it states 1260 days which is also three and a half years. In the book of Daniel 12th Chapter it uses these four terms which run concurrent.

1. time, times and a half time
2. one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
3. one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

The great tribulation starts when the two witnesses of God remove the weather and water from earth.

 

[mark s]

Hi Mark, I'm not sure I understand your point then. Your words: But I do disagree with you specifically on one point. Both gatherings occur at the time that Jesus comes in glory. There isn't a significant gap of time between them.


I'm assuming we are speaking of Matt. 25. There is only one gathering. It will be at the sheep and goat judgment where it will be decided who is a sheep and who is a goat. They are not gathered separately.

I'm speaking of the gathering of the chosen, followed by the gathering of the nations. Both occur when Jesus returns. The chosen are His chosen people being regathered to their promised land, in fulfillment of many prophecies. The nations are those we would call the gentiles, being gathered for judgment, also in fulfillment of prophecies.

Love in Christ,
Mark

The House of Jacob Mark which is made up of the House of Ephraim and the House of Judah! The House of Ephraim was dispersed into the world and are yet to be regather. What does the word Gentile imply? It simply implies one not of the Jewish Faith and in most cased is applied to the Lost House of Israel who were dispersed into the world forgetting who they were and no longer followed the Torah.

In Yeshus Messiah,

Bob

Can you show this in Scripture? I don't see it there. But I do see where God has promised to regather all the children of Jacob.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Trekson]

Hi Mark, Would you supply a couple of references please that show this two-part gathering?

 

[mark s]

Matt 24:31, Jesus sends the angels to gather the chosen, and Matt 25:32, the nations are gathered. Both occur when He comes in glory, one immediately, one when He sits on His throne.

 

[Saint]

Is not Matt 25:32 occurring after the millennium? The elect are gathered upon the return of Yeshua in Matt 24:31 but the sheep/goat judgment occurs 1000 years later, judging those who have lived during the millennium in physical bodies.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Can you show this in Scripture? I don't see it there. But I do see where God has promised to regather all the children of Jacob.

Mark I'll be gald too but what exactly is it that you want me to prove to you?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[mark s]

Is not Matt 25:32 occurring after the millennium? The elect are gathered upon the return of Yeshua in Matt 24:31 but the sheep/goat judgment occurs 1000 years later, judging those who have lived during the millennium in physical bodies.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

The passage says that its when Jesus comes in glory, not 1000 years later.

Mark I'll be gald too but what exactly is it that you want me to prove to you?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

That the "gentiles" is actual Israel.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Mark, In my opinion, Matt. 24:31 is a picture of the rapture. As a pre-wrather we believe this will occur an est. 2-3 yrs. before the gathering of the nations at Matt. 25:32, which we believe is at the beginning of the millennium. This judgment decides who is worthy to enter the millennial age in their still human body to help re-populate the earth.

 

[Saint]

Mark something doesn't make sense here; I have a few questions.

Is there a millennium?

Are the saints gathered prior to the millennium and given glorified bodies?

And the finial question is; is there judgment which condemns people to eternal punishment prior to the Great White Throne judgment?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob