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L.A.M.B.

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I guess I'm having a little trouble understanding this statement, Sis. Could I trouble you to rephrase it?

.
Salvation is per the Gospel of Jesus Christ, correct ?
The formula for such can be found here.

Romans 10:9-15
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
1For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things !

I do not have the power to see another's heart of belief nor of unbelief; I can only take the profession of their lips and see the fruit of their walk.
These standard are based against the very word of God.

I hope this explains better my post.
 
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BarneyFife

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Salvation is per the Gospel of Jesus Christ, correct ?
The formula for such can be found here.

Romans 10:9-15
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
1For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things !

I do not have the power to see another's heart of belief nor of unbelief; I can only take the profession of their lips and see the fruit of their walk.
These standard are based against the very word of God.

I hope this explains better my post.

I think I see.

There is a popular school of thought that that which does not pertain to the simplest context of the atonement should not be discussed.

I guess it goes without saying that I do not prescribe entirely to that view.

There are no less than 3/4 million English words in the Bible.

And Christ said that we can't live on any less than every one of them. And when He needed to cheer up the mourning travelers on the road to Emmaus after His death, He opened to them all things concerning Himself that were written in the Old Testament, no less.

But I bear no ill will toward folks who do not view things this way.

I'm happy to talk about the glorious fact that while we were yet helpless, sinful enemies of God, Christ died for us, per Romans 5.

But it doesn't get much traction or mileage here; mostly just crickets, which is why I often have to take breaks from this place.

Thanks for clearing that up, Sis. :hearteyes:

.
 
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L.A.M.B.

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I think I see.

There is a popular school of thought that that which does not pertain to the simplest context of the atonement should not be discussed.

I guess it goes without saying that I do not prescribe entirely to that view.

There are no less than 3/4 million English words in the Bible.

And Christ said that we can't live on any less than every one of them. And when He needed to cheer up the mourning travelers on the road to Emmaus after His death, He opened to them all things concerning Himself that were written in the Old Testament, no less.

But I bear no ill will toward folks who do not view things this way.

I'm happy to talk about the glorious fact that while we were yet helpless, sinful enemies of God, Christ died for us, per Romans 5.

But it doesn't get much traction or mileage here; mostly just crickets, which is why I often have to take breaks from this place.

Thanks for clearing that up, Sis. :hearteyes:

.
No rather to discuss but not to argue and mock.( guilty here)

Salvation is what becomes our righteousness, it is found only in Christ Jesus, agree?.

Can I guess this by what any say they believe to be truth outside the word. We live by his standards first, he will judge the rest of our beliefs as wood, hay or stubble, correct?

Oh that where God's ppl gathered it would be only to encourage, edify, exhort, correct ect without the endless debate. The word of God is already written, given and sealed for our instruction.

I believe lemons are sour, another thinks they are sweet, why should we gather a council to decide whom is right outside of the partaker of the fruit. Our perceptions are not always correct on the simplest of words such as

IF, can even go sideways real quick !
 
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BarneyFife

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No rather to discuss but not to argue and mock.( guilty here)

Salvation is what becomes our righteousness, it is found only in Christ Jesus, agree?.

Can I guess this by what any say they believe to be truth outside the word. We live by his standards first, he will judge the rest of our beliefs as wood, hay or stubble, correct?

Oh that where God's ppl gathered it would be only to encourage, edify, exhort, correct ect without the endless debate. The word of God is already written, given and sealed for our instruction.

I believe lemons are sour, another thinks they are sweet, why should we gather a council to decide whom is right outside of the partaker of the fruit. Our perceptions are not always correct on the simplest of words such as

IF, can even go sideways real quick !

It seems like you might be talking about the issue of extra-biblical writings. But we can't both discuss them and not discuss them, can we? :contemplate:

.
 

L.A.M.B.

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It seems like you might be talking about the issue of extra-biblical writings. But we can't both discuss them and not discuss them, can we? :contemplate:

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No, WE, you & I cannot discuss them.
This is how we went so wrong before.
( Extra- writings outside his word are up to the partaker)

I'm of the notion to add a little word here and add a little word there, praying it helps in the Spirit to direct as God
wills !
 
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L.A.M.B.

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And yet, we are.

And I don't really understand the humor in it. Sorry.

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What humour?
I stated a fact, maybe you do not see anger in yourself when talking about the extras of your denomination, but it is expressed & received.....same as Catholics, ect.

I must hand it to @Aunty Jane I do not recall seeing in her post anger for those whom have called her beliefs, garbage, rubbish ect.

It is everyone's right to believe what they believe, however all is not truth.

I will leave it there !
 
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BarneyFife

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What humour?
lamb001.jpg


I stated a fact, maybe you do not see anger in yourself when talking about the extras of your denomination, but it is expressed & received.....same as Catholics, ect.

I must hand it to @Aunty Jane I do not recall seeing in her post anger for those whom have called her beliefs, garbage, rubbish ect.

It is everyone's right to believe what they believe, however all is not truth.

I will leave it there !

You had a laugh and now you're angry and stomping off while accusing me of anger.

And I'm not angry. But you're bringing up things that you said were forgiven just a day or so ago.

What can I do?

.
 
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L.A.M.B.

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No rather to discuss but not to argue and mock.( guilty here)

Salvation is what becomes our righteousness, it is found only in Christ Jesus, agree?.

Can I guess this by what any say they believe to be truth outside the word. We live by his standards first, he will judge the rest of our beliefs as wood, hay or stubble, correct?

Oh that where God's ppl gathered it would be only to encourage, edify, exhort, correct ect without the endless debate. The word of God is already written, given and sealed for our instruction.

I believe lemons are sour, another thinks they are sweet, why should we gather a council to decide whom is right outside of the partaker of the fruit. Our perceptions are not always correct on the simplest of words such as

IF, can even go sideways real quick !
I quoted of your post what I addressed.

Oh I get it now, the emoji......duh.
lamb001.jpg




You had a laugh and now you're angry and stomping off while accusing me of anger.

And I'm not angry. But you're bringing up things that you said were forgiven just a day or so ago.

What can I do?

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Not angry and certainly not stomping off.

Forgive the reminder of how we or as you call it I got angry before.
Not wanting to go there again, I laughed, thinking " whew we are beyond that".

Forgive me, they are removed !

I'll say good nite to you now.
 

Illuminator

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Would you give up transubstantiation, venerance of the saints, purgatory, immaculate conception, unconditional immortality, Sunday sacredness, absolution, infant baptism, penance, etc.?
These are authentic beliefs and practices that predate the canon of Scripture. They were not foreign to the Christian community in the first 3-4 centuries. The evidence is there for anyone who wishes to see it.
These things constitute the symbolic wine of Babylon in the book of Revelation.
Such wild interpretations cannot withstand scholarly scrutiny, nor the common sense of an honest inquirer.

The rhetoric of which you speak has been much toned down by Adventists over the years as a due gesture to the Catholic laity and, in fact, the person on this very forum who refers to the catholic church as you say does so more than all of the Adventist forum members combined.
But you can't tone this down without ceasing to be an Adventist :
"These things constitute the symbolic wine of Babylon in the book of Revelation."

Yet you cannot identify by name ONE martyr in the late 1st century, or the 2nd. Until you do, you have no business making direct or indirect reference to the blood of the martyrs.
 
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BarneyFife

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But you can't tone this down without ceasing to be an Adventist :
"These things constitute the symbolic wine of Babylon in the book of Revelation."

I couldn't agree more. But it doesn't have to get personally offensive, as it so often does.

And, as I said in another thread recently:

"I know this must sound pretty obnoxious to the Catholic ear but I think that tends to be the nature of these discussions.

The errors that the Catholic church teaches are pretty difficult to water down in an honest exchange of viewpoints.

Alas, in trying not to push too hard, I've probably succeeded only in pushing harder than I intended. :("

.
 

Brakelite

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Those indoctrinated by Ellen G White go by what she said, not be what God's Word says.

So, I wouldn't expect these folks to understand. Good bye!
I have seen this argument so many times, and it makes no more impact on me personally than the proclamations from shamans in Jamaica.
You may convince yourself that this is true, and perhaps even some that read it, but my experience and observation of other Adventists have proved this false. I, like Barney, became an Adventist, not because of Ellen White, whom I had never heard of, but because the holy Spirit led me into truth using scripture, and scripture alone. That was after 25 years a Catholic, followed by 21 years a Pentecostal. I'm now 71. Your challenges which Barney has answered are all groundless and empty. You need to do more research and deeper study.
 
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BarneyFife

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I have seen this argument so many times, and it makes no more impact on me personally than the proclamations from shamans in Jamaica.
You may convince yourself that this is true, and perhaps even some that read it, but my experience and observation of other Adventists have proved this false. I, like Barney, became an Adventist, not because of Ellen White, whom I had never heard of, but because the holy Spirit led me into truth using scripture, and scripture alone. That was after 25 years a Catholic, followed by 21 years a Pentecostal. I'm now 71. Your challenges which Barney has answered are all groundless and empty. You need to do more research and deeper study.

I don't think I ever read any of Mrs. White's material until after I became an Adventist. It's kind of like icing on the cake and she always warned against using her work as primary preaching and teaching.

There must be a reason why the Library Of The U.S. Congress recommends "Desire Of Ages" as an excellent extra-biblical biography of Christ over the material that she "plagiarized."

.
 
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Illuminator

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I couldn't agree more. But it doesn't have to get personally offensive, as it so often does.
Of the first 31 popes, 28 died as martyrs. This takes us to the end of the 2nd century. According to you, the whore of Babylon (Catholics) killed them, which is stupid and illogical, not to mention offensive. You are forced to blur the lines between pagan Rome and Christian Rome, and assert that Catholics, the alleged whore of Babylon, killed their own popes, which is stupid and absurd. I asked you to identify by name ONE martyr of that era which you cannot do, because you won't admit they were all Catholics.
Then, you guys have to twist 2 chapters of Revelation to justify your false histories, making discussion impossible.
"I know this must sound pretty obnoxious to the Catholic ear but I think that tends to be the nature of these discussions.

The errors that the Catholic church teaches are pretty difficult to water down in an honest exchange of viewpoints.


Alas, in trying not to push too hard, I've probably succeeded only in pushing harder than I intended. :("

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"These things constitute the symbolic wine of Babylon in the book of Revelation." A stupid, absurd claim with no evidence apart from twisted interpretations of Revelation to justify false histories. This is why debating with SDA's is a waste of screen space.
I noticed no comments on my links in post #311.
 
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BarneyFife

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Of the first 31 popes, 28 died as martyrs. This takes us to the end of the 2nd century. According to you, the whore of Babylon (Catholics) killed them, which is stupid and illogical, not to mention offensive. You are forced to blur the lines between pagan Rome and Christian Rome, and assert that Catholics, the alleged whore of Babylon, killed their own popes, which is stupid and absurd. I asked you to identify by name ONE martyr of that era which you cannot do, because you won't admit they were all Catholics.
Then, you guys have to twist 2 chapters of Revelation to justify your false histories, making discussion impossible.
"These things constitute the symbolic wine of Babylon in the book of Revelation." A stupid, absurd claim with no evidence apart from twisted interpretations of Revelation to justify false histories. This is why debating with SDA's is a waste of screen space.

At least as much difficulty comes from the fact that you've obviously read only the CliffsNotes version of Adventist eschatology.

And Adventists didn't invent the interpretation of the papacy being the fulfillment of symbolic evil elements of Daniel 7, Revelation 13, etc., by the way.

I noticed no comments on my links in post #311.

That's because I don't read articles on catholic.com unless I absolutely have to. I don't need complicated articles written by biased authors to supposedly clear up things that are pretty simple from the Bible and general history. I wouldn't expect the Catholic church hierarchy to be honest about their history if it was bad, so it basically proves nothing. Actually, I prefer to get information about Catholicism from the Vatican website, or history sources like Britannica or old history books, if possible.

To be fair, much of the argumentative animosity has been fostered by unwise Adventist scholars who have found dozens of identifying marks of the papacy where there actually aren't any, likely in an effort to build up eschatological and theological "armaments," as it were, almost like a Cold War deterrence model.

.
 

Illuminator

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At least as much difficulty comes from the fact that you've obviously read only the CliffsNotes version of Adventist eschatology.

And Adventists didn't invent the interpretation of the papacy being the fulfillment of symbolic evil elements of Daniel 7, Revelation 13, etc., by the way.
This was a psychological necessity for the early Protestant leaders because they were in the process of breaking away from what their contemporaries universally recognized as the authentic Church of Christ, governed by the authentic Vicar of Christ. Since breaking with such a body is inconceivable to any one determined to follow Christ’s will, it was necessary for Protestant leaders to deny that the Catholic Church and the pope were these things.

The recognition of the Catholic Church as the one Christ established was so strong—given its centuries of existence, its ubiquity in Europe, and the absence of any plausible rival in tracing its roots back to Christ—that it created severe cognitive dissonance that Protestant leaders had to find ways to overcome. “If it’s not the Bride of Christ then what is it? How can it be explained otherwise?” would be logical questions.

Protestant leaders cast about in Scripture for alternative explanations for a large, false religious system expected to exist during the Christian age. They chose the religious system associated with the beast from Revelation, whom they identified as the Antichrist. They further identified this religious system with the Whore of Babylon, who in Revelation is in contrast to the Church, the Bride of Christ.

They thus came to portray the Church as the Whore of Babylon and the pope as the beast/Antichrist. Only in such a way could breaking away from what everyone recognized as the true Church of Christ be psychologically justified.

Thus the Lutheran Book of Concord states, “The pope is the real Antichrist who has raised himself over and set himself against Christ . . . Accordingly, just as we cannot adore the devil himself as our lord or God, so we cannot suffer his apostle, the pope or Antichrist, to govern us as our head or lord” (Smalcald Articles 2:4:10, 14).

The Presbyterian and Anglican Westminster Confession states, “There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be the head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and that son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God” (25:6).

The difficulty with the papal Antichrist theory is that while it may have provided psychological comfort to early Protestant leaders, it does not fit the facts as they are presented in Scripture.

Even given the identification of the Antichrist with the beast, the pope is the last person who would fit the biblical requirements for being the individual Antichrist (or any Antichrist). The epistles of John clearly indicate that the Antichrist is one who denies that Christ has come in the flesh. However, the basis for the pope’s position in the Church is that Christ has come in the flesh and has ascended to heaven, leaving the successor of Peter as his vicar or representative on earth.

For the pope to deny that Christ has come in the flesh would be to undercut the basis of his position. Since no pope historically has made such claims, it is easily verifiable that no pope in history has been an Antichrist. Neither will any future pope be inclined to deny the basis of his position. The anti-papal argument simply is not credible.

Further, in Scripture the beast is clearly a political leader, not a Church leader. In fact, the beast is literally identified with one of the early Roman emperors, who had no part of the Church.
That's because I don't read articles on catholic.com unless I absolutely have to. I don't need complicated articles written by biased authors to supposedly clear up things that are pretty simple from the Bible and general history.
The content of my links are pretty simple from the Bible and general history. They are not complicated.
I wouldn't expect the Catholic church hierarchy to be honest about their history if it was bad, so it basically proves nothing.
Bad things that happened in the Church have never been denied, and if they have been, it's because there are stupid Catholics.
Actually, I prefer to get information about Catholicism from the Vatican website, or history sources like Britannica or old history books, if possible.
So do I, but it falls on deaf ears. The best and most documented sources on early church history comes from the writings of the Early Church Fathers, eagerly dismissed/ignored by those with the impossible task of writing church history based on the Bible alone.
To be fair, much of the argumentative animosity has been fostered by unwise Adventist scholars who have found dozens of identifying marks of the papacy where there actually aren't any, likely in an effort to build up eschatological and theological "armaments," as it were, almost like a Cold War deterrence model.
Which your library of sick videos continue to do.

A Crack in the Door​

Now that Protestantism has been in a state of separation from the Church for several centuries, psychological pressures have eased, and many Protestants today recognize the absurdity of the papal Antichrist theory and reject those portions of their confessional writings that endorse it.

This praiseworthy recognition provides the Catholic apologist with an opportunity to invite individuals to fundamentally reconsider the Protestant Reformation. If Protestants are prepared to admit that the pope is not the Antichrist and that the Catholic Church is not the Whore of Babylon, then the questions may be posed: “Then what are they? How can they be otherwise explained?”

Most Christians are and always have been members of the Catholic Church. The pope and the Catholic Church are too central to historic Christianity to be dismissed as simply an accident. They must have some part in God’s plan. But if they are not the Antichrist and the Whore of Babylon, then the logical alternative is to recognize them as the Vicar of Christ and the Bride of Christ—the very realization that drove the early Reformers to the papal Antichrist theory.
source
 
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Brakelite

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This was a psychological necessity for the early Protestant leaders because they were in the process of breaking away from what their contemporaries universally recognized as the authentic Church of Christ, governed by the authentic Vicar of Christ. Since breaking with such a body is inconceivable to any one determined to follow Christ’s will, it was necessary for Protestant leaders to deny that the Catholic Church and the pope were these things.

The recognition of the Catholic Church as the one Christ established was so strong—given its centuries of existence, its ubiquity in Europe, and the absence of any plausible rival in tracing its roots back to Christ—that it created severe cognitive dissonance that Protestant leaders had to find ways to overcome. “If it’s not the Bride of Christ then what is it? How can it be explained otherwise?” would be logical questions.

Protestant leaders cast about in Scripture for alternative explanations for a large, false religious system expected to exist during the Christian age. They chose the religious system associated with the beast from Revelation, whom they identified as the Antichrist. They further identified this religious system with the Whore of Babylon, who in Revelation is in contrast to the Church, the Bride of Christ.

They thus came to portray the Church as the Whore of Babylon and the pope as the beast/Antichrist. Only in such a way could breaking away from what everyone recognized as the true Church of Christ be psychologically justified.

Thus the Lutheran Book of Concord states, “The pope is the real Antichrist who has raised himself over and set himself against Christ . . . Accordingly, just as we cannot adore the devil himself as our lord or God, so we cannot suffer his apostle, the pope or Antichrist, to govern us as our head or lord” (Smalcald Articles 2:4:10, 14).

The Presbyterian and Anglican Westminster Confession states, “There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be the head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and that son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God” (25:6).

The difficulty with the papal Antichrist theory is that while it may have provided psychological comfort to early Protestant leaders, it does not fit the facts as they are presented in Scripture.

Even given the identification of the Antichrist with the beast, the pope is the last person who would fit the biblical requirements for being the individual Antichrist (or any Antichrist). The epistles of John clearly indicate that the Antichrist is one who denies that Christ has come in the flesh. However, the basis for the pope’s position in the Church is that Christ has come in the flesh and has ascended to heaven, leaving the successor of Peter as his vicar or representative on earth.

For the pope to deny that Christ has come in the flesh would be to undercut the basis of his position. Since no pope historically has made such claims, it is easily verifiable that no pope in history has been an Antichrist. Neither will any future pope be inclined to deny the basis of his position. The anti-papal argument simply is not credible.

Further, in Scripture the beast is clearly a political leader, not a Church leader. In fact, the beast is literally identified with one of the early Roman emperors, who had no part of the Church.

The content of my links are pretty simple from the Bible and general history. They are not complicated.

Bad things that happened in the Church have never been denied, and if they have been, it's because there are stupid Catholics.

So do I, but it falls on deaf ears. The best and most documented sources on early church history comes from the writings of the Early Church Fathers, eagerly dismissed/ignored by those with the impossible task of writing church history based on the Bible alone.

Which your library of sick videos continue to do.

A Crack in the Door​

Now that Protestantism has been in a state of separation from the Church for several centuries, psychological pressures have eased, and many Protestants today recognize the absurdity of the papal Antichrist theory and reject those portions of their confessional writings that endorse it.

This praiseworthy recognition provides the Catholic apologist with an opportunity to invite individuals to fundamentally reconsider the Protestant Reformation. If Protestants are prepared to admit that the pope is not the Antichrist and that the Catholic Church is not the Whore of Babylon, then the questions may be posed: “Then what are they? How can they be otherwise explained?”

Most Christians are and always have been members of the Catholic Church. The pope and the Catholic Church are too central to historic Christianity to be dismissed as simply an accident. They must have some part in God’s plan. But if they are not the Antichrist and the Whore of Babylon, then the logical alternative is to recognize them as the Vicar of Christ and the Bride of Christ—the very realization that drove the early Reformers to the papal Antichrist theory.
source
If the subject matter wasn't so serious, your post would be quite comical in its absurd notions, and silly conclusions. The seriousness of the subject comes in 2 principle lines of argument, first, the cunning continuation of the counter reformation behind your post and it's plausibility antidote against the truth, being that the Popes, as individuals, do not answer to the prophetic criteria as you say, however, the Catholic system does, with its numerous popes as spokesmen:
and second, the fact that Jesus warned that in the last days many would be deceived by the sophistry and lies of those who would "come in My name" , this fulfilling the true Antichrist, and laying to rest your theories of a political leader solely. The Antichrist had to be both...a union of church and state claiming authority over the whole world. Which the papacy does.
 
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Brakelite

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Christ was a protestant. He protested against the formal worship of the Jewish nation, who rejected the counsel of God against themselves. He told them that they taught for doctrines the commandments of men, and that they were pretenders and hypocrites. Like whited sepulchers they were beautiful without, but within full of impurity and corruption. The Reformers date back to Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves from a religion of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not invent the reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the apostles. The Bible is presented to us as a sufficient guide; but the pope and his workers remove it from the people as if it were a curse, because it exposes their pretensions and rebukes their idolatry.