SHABBAT SHALOM

[GracePeace]

I'm not making anyone do anything.

When you say it is "right" then you make it a "sin" to not do it.

God told us to observe and remember so we don't forget where we came from and where we're going.

You can't rely solely on statements from Torah since Christ repudiates Torah in Matthew 5 and Matthew 19 for instance saying it isn't really God's will and then brings in a higher Law in its place--in this way He is "a Prophet like Moses" (Moses authoritatively mediated Law to Israel).

He chose a place and time and gave it to us.

Exactly my point : you just got done saying I was bound in time as if it were bad but now you're being more consistent and defending your own very time-bound view.

This place and time is both physical and spiritual.
The physical keeps us in rememberance.

Your previous reply ("I believe Sabbath is Eternal" and the critique that I was Time bound) was to my assertion there'd be a new Sabbath because of the New Creation. Now you embrace time boundedness... how does this relate to there not being a New Sabbath in the New Creation?

The spiritual is already waiting to be entered if one has faith that after this mortal life we will enter.

How does this relate to there not being a New Sabbath in the New Creation?

If you are Christ's you are already there in Spirit. You are at rest and in peace.
There is no need for another.

How does this relate to there not being a New Sabbath after a New Creative act?

Some people only keep a day. But that Sabbath day in spirit is eternal. It is not limited by the rising and falling of the sun.

How does this relate to my assertion that there is a New Sabbath after a New Creative act?

In fact, in that Sabbath there is no sun for the lamb is the light which shines in the Kingdom of God.

Doesn't that ruin your 7th day Sabbath keeping because you can't see the Sun or know which day it is?

Psa 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

You're citing a list of Scriptures I'm not sure are relevant.

Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

We've had 6 days of ignorance and doing things our way.
The last day is the Lord's day. Which is a Holy day.
One of peace and rest to those who have repented of their sins.
One of Judgement for those who have not.

1. So, again--contrary to your denial--just as I'd said, you really are insisting it's an issue of righteousness and threatening that if people don't observe the Sabbath they will be condemned.

2. The 7th "day" (millennium) following a pattern and being a fulfillment of the type and shadow laid down by the 7th day Sabbath institution doesn't necessarily mean the institution itself is still in place. Christ was typed by Adam yet "the body of sin [is] brought to nothing" Ro 6:6 (and Paul actually teaches contrary to one of the first Commands given the Adamic institution "be fruitful and multiply" saying it's preferable to be single and celibate as he is 1 Co 7). The days required by the Law were types of what Christ would do, yet when the Galatians went to observe those days (as you are prompting people to do here) he said they had been bewitched and were following a false Gospel. You are coming close to doing the same thing here--observing days and commanding others to do the same "or else". I'm not saying you've crossed that line, especially since you don't seem to realize that you're doing that, but I highly recommend you read Galatians asking God for understanding.

You can choose a day if you want to.

Actually, this whole time, it's been yourself defending "a day" (the 7th)--I've been the one saying that no one should be told to observe a particular day.

For me, it is a way of life.
But I don't "make" anyone do anything.
Hugs

What I meant by "make" was "you say it is a matter of righteousness"--which you seem to have admitted to now so I think my point is proven.

 

[Ziggy]

Put it this way...
The Sabbath is a gift.
You can accept it or not.
Sabbath = Rest.
Once we receive it we won't need another.

A DAY IS AS A THOUSAND YEARS.

WE WILL SPEND A THOUSAND YEARS WITH THE LORD.

THIS IS THE DAY THE LORD HAS MADE. LET US REJOICE AND BE GLAD IN IT.

AMEN

I don't understand the dilemma.
God already gave you one. You apparently want to disagree with it.
So what difference if he creates another. You would still be opposed.
Apparently..

Is it right to remember and keep something God said to remember and keep?
That's your choice.

I think you think I'm a Sabbath Day Adventist or something.
I have no affiliation with any denomination.
My thoughts and opinions and reasoning come from my understanding the scriptures and what the Lord gives me to understand.
And I'm not Jewish either.

But I have respect for the Bible and what is written within as the instructions we were given by God and those he sent to teach us.
Whether Prophet or Apostles or through Patriarchs and even villians.
You see what happens everytime Israel disobeys God, and so we are taught through examples of other people's mistakes.
Of course they weren't perfect, none of us are. But there are lessons of righteousness and lessons of wrongness.
The Sabbath seems to be pretty important throughout the OT. Everytime Israel ran to other religions they became enslaved and had no peace.
When they did keep God's Sabbath they had peace.
What does that tell you?

Now rulers of governments change over time. Israel had good kings and bad kings. God prophets and bad prophets. God Pastors and bad pastors.
When Jesus came the "establishment" was on the verge of anarchy against God himself.
They held the law with contempt. They did not Love God and they did not Love their neighbours, let alone their own people.
But that never changed the Sabbath.
The Sabbath is a place where people go to find peace.
Jesus IS the Sabbath. He is where we go to find peace.
Is it just one day?

Not for me.. it's always and forever.
But if you want to believe their is another new Sabbath coming... bully for you Hurrah! Hurrah!
Keep that hope alive and have faith.

Hugs to you.
I'm not arguing here anymore.
You can take it to another thread if you like.
But for me and my house:

Here Listen:

 

[GracePeace]

Put it this way...
The Sabbath is a gift.
You can accept it or not.
Sabbath = Rest.
Once we receive it we won't need another.

A DAY IS AS A THOUSAND YEARS.

WE WILL SPEND A THOUSAND YEARS WITH THE LORD.

THIS IS THE DAY THE LORD HAS MADE. LET US REJOICE AND BE GLAD IN IT.

AMEN

I don't understand the dilemma.
God already gave you one. You apparently want to disagree with it.
So what difference if he creates another. You would still be opposed.
Apparently..

Is it right to remember and keep something God said to remember and keep?
That's your choice.

I think you think I'm a Sabbath Day Adventist or something.
I have no affiliation with any denomination.
My thoughts and opinions and reasoning come from my understanding the scriptures and what the Lord gives me to understand.
And I'm not Jewish either.

But I have respect for the Bible and what is written within as the instructions we were given by God and those he sent to teach us.
Whether Prophet or Apostles or through Patriarchs and even villians.
You see what happens everytime Israel disobeys God, and so we are taught through examples of other people's mistakes.
Of course they weren't perfect, none of us are. But there are lessons of righteousness and lessons of wrongness.
The Sabbath seems to be pretty important throughout the OT. Everytime Israel ran to other religions they became enslaved and had no peace.
When they did keep God's Sabbath they had peace.
What does that tell you?

Now rulers of governments change over time. Israel had good kings and bad kings. God prophets and bad prophets. God Pastors and bad pastors.
When Jesus came the "establishment" was on the verge of anarchy against God himself.
They held the law with contempt. They did not Love God and they did not Love their neighbours, let alone their own people.
But that never changed the Sabbath.
The Sabbath is a place where people go to find peace.
Jesus IS the Sabbath. He is where we go to find peace.
Is it just one day?

Not for me.. it's always and forever.
But if you want to believe their is another new Sabbath coming... bully for you Hurrah! Hurrah!
Keep that hope alive and have faith.

Hugs to you.
I'm not arguing here anymore.
You can take it to another thread if you like.
But for me and my house:

Here Listen:

It would be easier to see what specific point that I've made that you're respond to if you were to quote me and then respond as I have done for you in my responses.

 

[Ziggy]

I'm not interested

 

[GracePeace]

Put it this way...
The Sabbath is a gift.
You can accept it or not.

Not relevant to the discussion.

Sabbath = Rest.
Once we receive it we won't need another.

Again, when God creates, He rests, and the commemoration thereof is called a "Sabbath".
You have had a few responses--among them have been:
a) "No, the New Creation hasn't arrived"
Note : This denial that the New Creation had arrived seemed to have been a concession that there would be a New Sabbath in the New Creation--"No, I am still right--the Sabbath hasn't changed, because the New Creation hasn't arrived yet!"
b) "There won't be a New Sabbath in a New Creation."
Note : No reason is provided for why God would break His pattern He revealed; instead, all that is provided is an empty assertion.
c) "Why would we need a new Sabbath?" and "Once we receive the gift of the 7th Day Sabbath we won't need another."
Note : Doesn't address the issue of a New Creation necessitating a New Rest and New Sabbath.

None of these answers the objection I have raised.

A DAY IS AS A THOUSAND YEARS.

WE WILL SPEND A THOUSAND YEARS WITH THE LORD.

THIS IS THE DAY THE LORD HAS MADE. LET US REJOICE AND BE GLAD IN IT.

AMEN

Again, this does not address what I've said.

I don't understand the dilemma.

Clearly.

God already gave you one.

He gave one that applied to the Old Creation which you are now trying to force a New Creation to adhere to--and you give no argument as to why anyone should listen.

You apparently want to disagree with it.

I disagree with your mishandling of Scripture.

So what difference if he creates another. You would still be opposed.

Actually, this discussion is about my wanting to conform to God's will, so this is a warrantless accusation.

Is it right to remember and keep something God said to remember and keep?
That's your choice.

God doesn't say to keep it though--that is what I've proven.

I think you think I'm a Sabbath Day Adventist or something.
I have no affiliation with any denomination.
My thoughts and opinions and reasoning come from my understanding the scriptures and what the Lord gives me to understand.
And I'm not Jewish either.

It makes no difference what group anyone is affiliated with.
When have I mentioned your group affiliation?
I have always and only addressed your arguments.

But I have respect for the Bible and what is written within as the instructions we were given by God and those he sent to teach us.

Jesus repudiates the Torah--read Matthew 5 "but I say" and Matthew 19 where Jesus is repudiating Torah divorce laws and reveals the Torah contained concessions which were NOT GOD'S WILL "Moses gave you the certificate of divorce because of the hardness of your hearts".

Whether Prophet or Apostles or through Patriarchs and even villians.
You see what happens everytime Israel disobeys God, and so we are taught through examples of other people's mistakes.

You need to read Galatians.

Of course they weren't perfect, none of us are. But there are lessons of righteousness and lessons of wrongness.
The Sabbath seems to be pretty important throughout the OT. Everytime Israel ran to other religions they became enslaved and had no peace.
When they did keep God's Sabbath they had peace.
What does that tell you?

Jesus repudiates the Torah and brings in better, higher, Law, so you can't say "Anything that was in Torah is binding today".

Now rulers of governments change over time. Israel had good kings and bad kings. God prophets and bad prophets. God Pastors and bad pastors.
When Jesus came the "establishment" was on the verge of anarchy against God himself.
They held the law with contempt. They did not Love God and they did not Love their neighbours, let alone their own people.
But that never changed the Sabbath.
The Sabbath is a place where people go to find peace.
Jesus IS the Sabbath. He is where we go to find peace.
Is it just one day?

We're not under Law, and Paul is "dead to the Law" Galatians 2:19, and he worries about people who want to be "under Law" Galatians 4:20-21.
It's not wrong that you want to do something "for God" or "as unto the Lord" (Romans 14 refers to this), but it is wrong when you start trying to tell others it is a matter of righteousness which means "or else" (ie, because "the unrighteous will not inherit God's Kingdom").

Not for me.. it's always and forever.

I've already explained why this is a false belief--you have not provided a reason why you think I'm erring. You're running on emotions, or something else, but not facts.

But if you want to believe their is another new Sabbath coming... bully for you Hurrah! Hurrah!
Keep that hope alive and have faith.

Since you think I'm sinning by omission (failure to do righteousness), it would be inconsistent, unloving, to say "go ahead and do it" rather than correct me.

I'm not arguing here anymore.
You can take it to another thread if you like.

I'm going to help people understand why you're misleading them thank you very much.

But for me and my house:

Here Listen:

I've already proven you're not serving the Lord when you're making it an issue of righteousness. Read Galatians and ask God what it means.

 

[GracePeace]

I'm not interested

Not interested in the facts of the matter--telling.
All right, enjoy your rejection of facts.

 

[Ziggy]

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

What was the reasoning for God giving man a day of rest originally?

In this New Creation as seen in Revelation chapter 21..
Where is a need for another?

Seeing we shall inherit ALL things, what need is there for God to give us something we will already posess?
Seeing we will be resting in the Sabbath that he made holy and sanctified for himself from the beginning?

What new creation are you speaking of?
Is it spiritual or material?
I think this is where our roads are crossing.

 

[Ziggy]

It would be easier to see what specific point that I've made that you're respond to if you were to quote me and then respond as I have done for you in my responses.

I'm not very good at that

 

[GracePeace]

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

It should be noted that when answers are given to you, you do not respond to them.
Why is that?
Why are you hiding?
Why are you pretending to have something coherent to say when you do not?
Why are you deceiving people?

What was the reasoning for God giving man a day of rest originally?

Better yet, why are you asking a bunch of non-sequiturious questions?

In this New Creation as seen in Revelation chapter 21..
Where is a need for another?

Seeing we shall inherit ALL things, what need is there for God to give us something we will already posess?
Seeing we will be resting in the Sabbath that he made holy and sanctified for himself from the beginning?

What new creation are you speaking of?
Is it spiritual or material?
I think this is where our roads are crossing.

When God creates He rests and the commemoration of that rest is called a Sabbath.

 

[Ziggy]

Exo 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.

Two days worth of bread.. and then the Sabbath.
A day is as a thousand years..
Time is short.

 

[GracePeace]

I'm not very good at that

When you hit "reply", it will give you a "quote" sequence in brackets "[...]" : here, it is QUOTE="Ziggy, post: 1023171, member: 9322" (but with brackets).

To quote my statement, you just make sure that sequence is in front of my quote, then go to the end of where you want to quote me, and type in /Quote (but with brackets around it "[...]").

Then you type in your reply.

Then you would highlight that quote sequence again (but make sure to include the brackets "[...]"), then hit "control" plus "c" to "copy" the text, then hit "control" plus "v" to "paste" it into the reply field.
Then do it all over again--put my text after that, then end the quote with /quote (but with brackets "[...]"), and then type in your reply.

 

[Ziggy]

Why are you deceiving people?

They call that projection. When you claim someone is doing exactly what you are doing.
So stop projecting

 

[GracePeace]

Exo 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.

Two days worth of bread.. and then the Sabbath.
A day is as a thousand years..
Time is short.

Wrong typology here : the single sixth day had two days worth of bread so that they would not go out on the Sabbath.
This corresponds with the double portion the fields would produce on the sixth year so that the land would rest on the Sabbath year.
It DOES NOT correspond with 2,000 years of the Gospel--which 2,000 years would correspond with "two days".

 

[GracePeace]

They call that projection. When you claim someone is doing exactly what you are doing.
So stop projecting

I am coming out in the open and explaining myself, point for point.
What am I hiding?

 

[GracePeace]

Ziggy,
So, for instance, when I hit "reply" to one of my statements, here is the "quote" sequence given


You can see, I went and added a "/quote" (with brackets) at the end, and that brings an end to the quote.
After that "end", you hit "return" or "enter" (so you're now typing beneath the quoted text), then you can add in your reply to the statement.

Then you can go back, copy the "quote" sequence (with brackets), do it all over again.

 

[Ziggy]

You just like to argue for the sake of arguing.

Explain this New Creation so we can stop talking past each other

 

[Ziggy]

Ziggy,
So, for instance, when I hit "reply" to one of my statements, here is the "quote" sequence given
View attachment 14971

You can see, I went and added a "/quote" (with brackets) at the end, and that brings an end to the quote.
After that "end", you hit "return" or "enter" (so you're now typing beneath the quoted text), then you can add in your reply to the statement.

Then you can go back, copy the "quote" sequence (with brackets), do it all over again.

I appreciate the help.
I'm 56 and my eyes and hands don't work so good. And my technical skills are the pits.
Patience please.
Thank you

 

[GracePeace]

You just like to argue for the sake of arguing.

Correction : I don't want people to be deceived by your rejection of facts so I offer responses to your rejection of facts for the sake of the readers--you want to be free to say things even though they are not factual and you are upset about being corrected and being incapable of defending your rejection of facts.

Explain this New Creation so we can stop talking past each other

Paul says a New Creation has arrived.
This goes along with the "already but not yet" nature of Christ.
As John says "the true light is already shining"--the New is breaking in.
As when the sun begins to rise, it is nothing compared to when the full noon day arrives.
So also New Creation has arrived but is not yet appearing fully.

 

[GracePeace]

I appreciate the help.
I'm 56 and my eyes and hands don't work so good. And my technical skills are the pits.
Patience please.
Thank you

I have to go to the doctor and shopping now.
Be back later.

 

[Ziggy]

Correction : I don't want people to be deceived by your rejection of facts so I offer responses to your rejection of facts for the sake of the readers--you want to be free to say things even though they are not factual and you are upset about being corrected and being incapable of defending your rejection of facts.


Paul says a New Creation has arrived.
This goes along with the "already but not yet" nature of Christ.
As John says "the true light is already shining"--the New is breaking in.
As when the sun begins to rise, it is nothing compared to when the full noon day arrives.
So also New Creation has arrived but is not yet appearing fully.

I can't find "New Creation" but I do find "New Creature" is this what you talking about?

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

This New creature. It is redemption from corruption which we fell into.
It's not a recreating it's a cleansing.
You redeem a bottle of soda. You wash it and reuse it, you don't create another bottle.

Unless ye become as little children...
You need to start over clean not physically be reborn from a womb again.

This verse:
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

this vanity, this hope..

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

You ever notice how many prominent people in power get black eyes? weird.
Why Do So Many Politicians and Celebrities Have Black Eyes?
Why Do So Many Politicians and Celebrities Have Black Eyes?

Most of them are Luciferians and prefer the darkness.
They are just showing us their true nature.

This New Creation.. I believe is a conversion process, going from darkness to light.
It's not another creation but rather a transformation into a new way.
You don't keep making a caterpillar until you come up with a butterfly.
The caterpillar is the butterfly before it evolves into a new creature.

So if we are transforming, evolving, converting into a new creature which is still the original only changed...
would we still need another rest after attaining that rest through conversion?

Hope all goes well at the doctors.
Hugs