Silly question, but a thought provoking one:
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Do you think that because Elohi(y)m is associated with Moses he was also part of creation? If you do, then you are not getting the meaning of Elohi(y)m.
Why is it foolish that the meaning of Elohi(y)m is grammatically singular because it is governed by a singular verb and/or modifier? That is part of the rules of sentence structure that makes it sensible and logical.
And then you are driven to add in another divine 'entity' into Elohi(y)m because you apparently do not want it to be singular in meaning. You have to have another divinity to make your Trinity concept work based on nothing, just out of thin air. I think this needs some sound explanation.
A 'first hint' because you want it to be, so badly, and you are building your own narrative to force it so? Again, please explain this hint of another divinity in Elohi(y)m?
So you are saying it is another divine being of your choosing that the Father is speaking to? I see you are still pushing for Christ to be this other divine one. And where is the basis for such a claim?
I would be careful in interchanging Elohi(y)m with YHWH unless you know why you are really doing. They are really not the same words with completely different emphasis and meanings. So YHWH one and YHWH two are never appropriate, there is but ONE YHWH and there can be many Elohim(s).
As said before, and by deduction, Elohim is the general and common name for any deity, or the one God, including YHWH or even a god(s). When used for the God, LORD Almighty, it is used in the context of say God as the creator. It emphasizes that God is at a distance and powerful. It is used to describe God as the mighty and majestic Creator.
YHWH is a proper and not a common noun, the actual personal name of Israel's deity. YHWH is Elohim's personal name and is used in the context of God relating to or with His people. I might understand why you interchanged them here.
So Elohim can also be the title for YHWH (I will be that/because I will be), and Elohim (God, god or gods) can also refer to pagan gods. And our LORD who is YHWH is definitely not a pagan god.
Back to your verse Isaiah 44:6: Your KJV is not the best translation of this verse, and many followed its lead. There are no two Gods or LORDs in this verse. It is the same LORD, of Israel and its redeemer. If continued on by reading verse 7 one can see both LORDs you pointed out are the same LORD and the same Elohim and the one YHWH, and reflected or compared against any Elohim or god(s). YHWH is the prime and only Redeemer in the OT, and in physical existence.
Other translations for emphasis...
Isaiah 44:6
This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. (NIV)
Isaiah 44:6 (BBE) The Lord, the King of Israel, even the Lord of armies who has taken up his cause, says, I am the first and the last, and there is no God but me.
Isaiah 44:6 (CEB) The LORD, Israel's king and redeemer, the LORD of heavenly forces, says: I am the first, and I am the last, and besides me there are no gods.
Isaiah 44:6 (CEBA) The LORD, Israel's king and redeemer, the LORD of heavenly forces, says: I am the first, and I am the last, and besides me there are no gods.
Isaiah 44:6 (CJB) Thus says ADONAI, Isra'el's King and Redeemer, ADONAI-Tzva'ot: "I am the first, and I am the last; besides me there is no God. ( Of the Jewish Bible)
So there is only ONE divine one mentioned here as intended in this verse; not two divinities (as you want to really believe Jesus is the second one somehow).
You are trying to remake or provide novel elements of the OT scripture into or as a trinitarian paradise. It does not work that way.
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@Ronald Nolette I guess I could explain why the KJV of Isaiah 44:6 is not the best translation.
Isaiah 44:6 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Notice "....and his redeemer.."
the pronoun 'his' means or refers to Israel in the verse, as Israel is a masculine noun in Hebrew. So we could substitute 'and the redeemer of Israel,' in place of 'his redeemer' in the verse.
And the one LORD, the one YHWH and the Elohim, the one Creator is described in a three ways to elevate and glorify his name above all names and any god as:
1. the King
2. the Saviour
3. the LORD of the armies of heavenly beings
Here's another example of the same thing...
“Hear the word of the LORD, O nations,
and declare it in the coastlands far away;
say, ‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.’
—Jeremiah 31:10 (ESV)
Isaiah 44:6 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Notice "....and his redeemer.."
the pronoun 'his' means or refers to Israel in the verse, as Israel is a masculine noun in Hebrew. So we could substitute 'and the redeemer of Israel,' in place of 'his redeemer' in the verse.
And the one LORD, the one YHWH and the Elohim, the one Creator is described in a three ways to elevate and glorify his name above all names and any god as:
1. the King
2. the Saviour
3. the LORD of the armies of heavenly beings
Here's another example of the same thing...
“Hear the word of the LORD, O nations,
and declare it in the coastlands far away;
say, ‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.’
—Jeremiah 31:10 (ESV)
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Elohim….that reminds me. LOL Thought provoking!
Well there is a certain amount of “mind control”--- mind manipulation --- false beliefs and misunderstandings --- that run through most denominations.
The cause? Modifications to the scriptures, incorrect translations, early scams and false doctrines, traditional stories, and songs. Now well over 2000 years later, who can say who is at fault? That is why I keep saying that one of the miracles of the scriptures is that the path to salvation survived in most of our Bibles.
The word Trinity is not in the Bible, and the one God formula of the Trinity, is a scam and a false doctrine.
The doctrine of “Original Sin” is false and the phrase does not appear in the Bible.
A lot of the clichés in Calvinism do not appear in the Bible. As a whole cliche and terms not in the scriptures are a con to promote false beliefs.
The belief that the summary of Laws in Exodus chapter 20 are what Yahweh called the Ten Commandments and instructed Moses to write them on the two tablets of the testimony, is false. The Commandments that Yahweh called the Ten Commandments are in chapter 34:1-28
The belief that vows and weddings are a requirement to be married anywhere in the Bible, is false.
Which means there is something wrong with the belief that fornication means two unmarried people having sex, because that was the union of marriage throughout the Bible. The word fornication develops in the Latin, centuries after the biblical era and is retrofitted and inserted into the Bible.
The discussion about divorce in the Gospels is directed towards the Jews specially. Christ, a Jew, was talking to Jews, about the Mosaic Law. Specifically the Letter of Divorcement, which the Christians do not adopt. Paul talks about couples separating but the word divorce does not appear outside of the Gospels.
The belief that Lucifer is another name for Satan, is false.
The belief that Satan was defined as a devil in the Old Testament, is false. The Jews still do not believe in a devil.
The belief that Yahweh threatened the Hebrew / Israelites / Jews with Hell, is false. The Jew still do not believe in Hell.
The belief that Yahweh offered Heaven as a reward to the Hebrew / Israelites / Jews in the Old Testament, is false. No opportunity for Salvation in the Old Testament.
“IN GOD WE TRUST” Which God or god. The Old Testament writers usually did not use the word God or Lord as a reference to Yahweh without stating His name. The reason for this is that the Hebrew word for God also meant god….as in other gods and that included the goddess. When Yahweh’s name was completely removed from the Bible the term God became a general term and subsequently confused a lot of Christian theology. And the name Elohim is one of those words that got sprinkled all over the Old Testament. It was part of the process of removing Yahweh’s name, in reality it very seldom appeared unless followed by the word Yahweh. Isn't it wonderful to read the Words of Man.
The belief that the prophets foretold of the Messiah being the Son of God…a full-fledged God! If that were so the prophetic books would be full of it, dancing in the streets, shouting from the mountain tops and on nearly every page. It would have saved Christ a lot trouble and may have saved the Jews.
The belief that the Magi were called wise men or kings in the scriptures, is false. Then you have to come up with an explaination of why witches were interested in Christ, were the first to worship Him and gave Him a treasure.
The belief that any name of a person, place, or thing could start with or something that sounded like a J, is a false belief. The "J" did not show up in languages for another 1400 years after the biblical era.
Yeshua Yahwah
Yob…Yoshua….Yacob….Yoseph….Yohn….Yames
Yerusaleum….Yericho….Yudges….Yeremiah….
The belief that Christ’s name is Jesus, is a false belief. It is not what appeared in the scriptures and no one knows were it came from. His name that was in the Greek scriptures was Ἰησοῦς Iēsous which is not a name, but a Greek word that means savior, one who saves. In the Latin Iesus. The Greek language was Pagan and did not have words associated with the Yahweh is our salvation. Just not in their culture or mythology.
Jesus Christ…sounds good, but Christ was not Yeshua’s last name, it does not appear that way in the scriptures. More like Iēsous the Christós In other words Yeshua the Messiah.
Christ’s mother’s name is Miriam….she was a Jew with a Hebrew name as with most of the characters of the Bible. Translated in the Greek as Mapia….translated in Latin Maria….translated in English Mary….Her name was Miriam and it can be spelled and pronounced in English….no reason to call her Mary.
She is the mother of Yeshua. It is through her that Christ’s blood lineage to King David occurred. Joseph was not Yeshua's real father….
Nothing in the Bible as far as immaculate conception or virgin birth or perpetual virginity. (Virgin in the Old and New Testament LOL perpetual debate. In the Old Testament Dinah who was rapped was called a virgin, after the rape.. The virgin in Isaiah is Isaiah’s wife…no implied virginity. The term in usage mean young girl that has not had a baby….The usage in the ancient world is ambiguous because they are not tracking every orifice or hand hold. And it gets a little rough from there.)
Miriam states she had not known a man which is the best proof that she had not been touched by a man. But she does not state that after she is pregnant. Of course Yahweh is not a man so technically she could have said it regardless of how the physical act of conception occurred. She did not "know" a man.
As far as the reverence of Miriam is concerned, it all happens after the biblical era. So effectively it is out of the parameters of Fundamentalism. Just ignore it. No harm, no foul. Fundamentalists…as you can see thus far, need to get what is actually in the Bible straight, before they start critiquing other people’s beliefs that lived and documented the history of Christianity, after the biblical era. Then again Catholics should not be offended that Protestants do not believe in the activity of Miriam…it is built into the methodology of their beliefs.
The reverence of Miriam started before the Catholic Church. To say they were pressured by public opinion would be pretty accurate. Her reverence probably started to gain momentum around a hundred years after Christ. In the early part of the 3rd century, (200’s) Hippolytus of Rome recorded the first liturgical reference to the Virgin Mary, as part of the ordination rite of a bishop. Again, before the Catholic Church. Marian feasts appeared in the 4th century, and the feast of the "Memory of Mary, Mother of God" was celebrated on August 15 in Jerusalem by the year 350. This was after the Edict of Milan but before she was given the title of "Theotokos" Mother of God at the Council of Ephesus 431
Early on we do not have a lot of documentation of all the aberrations and visitations that fueled the reverence of Miriam. I am assuming there were many, because it became so popular and widespread so quickly. In more modern times, Church confirmed sightings number in the dozens but all reports together number near 500 sightings with tens of thousands of witnesses. The sites become sacred and over the years millions make pilgrimages to the sites were thousands of miracles have been recorded. And somewhere in there is me. Still there is no reason for Fundamentalists to believe.
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Your missing out on a lot of Truth thru unbelief.
Hear is just one example:
Original sin = Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Truth is not unbelief. And Christianity is not about fantasy or non-sense.
The truth will set you free....
And Paul said it right, sin entered through one man...as the events unfolded and because of that sin, we live and we die.
Then again the Lord thy God said... I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 KJV
Original Sin the brain child of St Augustine. Paul called Christians saints and to cut to the chase...I do not subscribe to the concept that Christians are dirty filthy rags....For one, I know it is part of the lingo of cult leaders. Yahweh the most perfect, the Holy of Holies, just cannot keep His eyes off of us. We cannot be all that bad for that type of God to love us so much....He must see something in us. So important to Him that..... God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son to sacrifice His Son on the cross to save us, from our sins. Dirty filthy rags....I think not.
Top Marks GH and this is, or should be a huge bombshell for most to now sink into to many rigid minds. And many still won't blink an eyelid let alone drop their jaws. Pride is very bad thing indeed.
Thank you for the refreshing reset and restart.
It is needed from time to time, like using deep penetrating words in repruning and cutting off the dead unproductive closed and stubborn minds for the sake of spiritual liberty in the Body of believers. It is a revolutionary idea these days as was it when this country was officially born for a nation under our one indivisible God Almighty.
I take it then you are a revisionist as I. Our Lord Yahshua and yes, the Christ of his Father and our Savior was a revolutionary revisionist of the 4th kind
rolleyes: - rebirthed many hearts at the core of our being) that got him dead...Blessings, APAK
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
While quoting Scripture is cool, it does not answer my question. Why don't you try answering the question using your own words (with Scriptural quotes in support if you prefer) but consider this logical quandary.
P. Being A died.
P. To die means to have no capacity for independent action.
C. Being A has no capacity for independent action (like take things up again).
P. To die means to have no capacity for independent action.
C. Being A has no capacity for independent action (like take things up again).
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Well now i see where you mixed things up = #1 who is this Augustine guy for i know him not. But CHRIST i know and HE knows me.
#2 our righteousness before God is a as filthy rags (the worse kind also in case you do not understand what the Apostle Paul was speaking of).
#3 BEFORE anyone comes to CHRIST they are 'dead men walking' = Eph 2:4-5
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).
We become the Apple of HIS EYE after HE washes us in His Blood and fills us with His Holy Spirit.
Never forget this Brother
Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.
Yes Jesus who was a spirit being emptied himself becoming human, God's first born son becoming equal with His first human son, redeeming what His first human son lost, returning to his spirit form he returned to heaven, to receive the promised holy spirit and be exalted to the number 2 position being granted the privilege of sitting at God's right hand, until he was anointed as King of the Kingdom of God.
Why promote something that is false. Why not promote the God of Jesus, the one whom he promoted Barney.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I take it then you are a revisionist as I. Our Lord Yahshua and yes, the Christ of his Father and our Savior was a revolutionary revisionist of the 4th kind
Looking for truth will set you free....
To do that you cannot have pet beliefs.
I fellowship with several denominations and to do that I do not expect any to be correct.....just humans loving Christ.
So my ministry is being the Johnny Appleseed of facts....spreading seeds of truth.
My ministry started when I was very very young.
Christianity is like that ball of twine in Ripley's Believe It Or Not that set out in the weather for so long. Well finding the truth in the Bible is like unravelling that ball of twine. Time consuming and tedious.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
And never forget that TRUTH only comes from the mouth of God - found in His Word and understanding by the Holy Spirit.
Mix any of these THREE up and you have error.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Where can you find in Scripture that the LORD Jesus Christ was a 'spirit' before HE emptied HIMSELF
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
All history....you should check him out. Early 5th century, his writings were very influential in the Catholic Church....The "bio" on him shows he was pretty messed in the head. And Protestants adopted some of his beliefs.
I do not like the rhetoric of cults....they reel you in using certain terms. [ "You so awful, you so stupid, you so weak, your must do what I say"] There is no mystery that our perfection or our righteousness does not measure up to the Trinity. Was that ever the plan.
But that perfection, that righteousness, the Almighty God, loves us and want us to love Him....so the Trinity sees something in us that is worth their time.
All this is good but.....from the perspective of all knowing....He always knew our potential for good and loved us...the world while we were yet sinners....He loved us. Hence my motto.....Be good and do good.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i have to go now - work - have a great day and always seek to be filled with His Holy Spirit - amen
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
True....Human reality is made of.....beliefs....truths....and facts. Strange that they are usually not the same.
Truth is from the mouth of God.....the Bible....so from there with all the modifications you have to sort out the truth of Man and the truth of God....the words of Man and the Words of God that are in the Bibles we have.
If you have a connection with the Holy Spirit, that is awesome! Got to be careful of the voices in your head though. LOL
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