Simple Chart of End Times Events

[JosyWales]

You're starting to ramble brother.

Ramble, no. Repeat myself one too many times because the people Im talking to cannot rebut my info and just try to throw their own unsupportable theories at me, yes.

I think the very fact that you simply are trying to ignore what I am pressing home to you is sign enough that you have no answers. I will continue to stand by my well supported chart as long as I have to since you cannot show any error in it.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear All,

The fundimental error that most people make when creating charts is that the try to put too much into the 7 year period of the tribulation. This skews the whole picture. Some of these scriptures that do not fit refer to after the tribulaton and even to the New Heavens and New Earth.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[rockytopva]

Seven Church Ages...

1. Ephesus - Apostolic church
2. Smyrna - Martyrs church - 10 days equals 10 Roman persecutions
3. Pergamos -Orthodoxy - Pygros is a fortified structure, needed for the dark ages.
4. Thyatira -Catholic - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and dominate.
5. Sardis- Protestant - Doctrine in the head, little in the heart
6. Philadelphia - Methodist/Moravian - You got sanctified with a brotherly love and a sweet spirit.
7. Laodicea - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

Four horseman....

1. White - Democaracy
2. Red - Communism
3. Black - Islam
4. Pale- Anti-Christ

Rapture - May occur Christmas day, 2053
Christ's return - May occur Christmas day, 2060


“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half.” –Daniel 12:7

From a Isaac Newton folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.” – Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes…

“It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –Isaac Newton

Take notice that Isaac Newton's prophecy and Saint Malachy's 'prophecy of the popes' are two prophecies that they got really close for the day and the time in which they lived.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXO8Y0vvWT0

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

The 2300 days of Dan.8:13-14 aren't fulfilled yet either, so there's another deception with those who say they are already past history, especially by those who deny the Daniel 9 Scripture about the final "one week" period being for the end times to end this present world.

The end of the 2300 days period ends with Christ's future second coming. Only with Christ's second coming with the idea of the sanctuary (put for Christ's future Milennium Temple in Jerusalem) being cleansed will occur when Christ returns, and not before.

The 2300 days includes the time of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel, and that is an event still yet to occur in Jerusalem, it's for the coming tribulation time Jesus mentioned in Matt.24 which relates to the 6 Seals of Revelation 6, and all that is specific for the last days prior to our Lord Jesus' second coming, which is still... yet future to us today.

You gravely err in calling the opinion of someone else "another deception." I believe that you are wrong and I am right. Therefore, from my perspective, it is YOU who are promoting "another deception." Indeed, I find MANY such "deceptions" in your teaching as I do in those of JosyWales. Do I call your teachings "deceptions?" NO! They are merely your OPINIONS! It is better to call them what they really are: They are "errors," not "deceptions." You may BELIEVE that they are "deceptions," but it would be better for you to call them "errors" and not "deceptions," unless you know FULL WELL the other person's heart and can say without a doubt that they are PURPOSELY LYING to you.

There's an old joke:
Question: How do you know when a politician is lying? Answer: When his mouth is open!

I'm not a politician, brother! I'm also not a lawyer nor am I an actor. These, too, are professions that rely upon "lying." Lawyers will sometimes say things that they know are wrong and they don't really believe to make a case. Even the police and police detectives will sometimes use deception to trick a suspect into revealing the truth. Actors are ALWAYS pretending to be someone else and the words out of their mouths while they are doing their jobs acting, are PURPOSELY lying to the audience to make them believe that the actor is indeed the character he or she is portraying. My promise to you is that I am NOT lying to you. Therefore, unless you think that itself is a lie, you should not be so willing to call me a liar or to call my teachings a "deception."

While I may call your teachings "errors" (and I believe that they are), that, too, is just an opinion. In fact, I believe that YOU are the one who had been deceived in the past! Even your teachers, who probably meant well teaching you THEIR opinions that you have either adopted or adapted, have probably been so deceived by other well-meaning believers in their past. Who started these opinions? Who knows but God? Some are as quick as a duck on a June bug to say that they started with haSatan (Hebrew for "the enemy"), but I think that gives haSatan too much credit. Some errors are strictly human errors. Somebody makes a mistake or takes something the wrong way and - boom! - an error is born. Some people are too quick to say, "The devil made me do it!" We should all know that this statement is a cop-out and is not taking responsibility for one's own actions.

In any case, your opinions are no more supported by Scripture from my point of view than my opinions are from your point of view. Call it a draw. I do not find Dani'el 8 to be linked to Dani'el 9 at all except for their positions in his book. I believe that they are like entries in a journal, and are two separate accounts of incidents that happened to him. Furthermore, I find that Dani'el 8 was fulfilled in the past. I believe that 2 Maccabees is proof that the prophecy was fulfilled, but you are just not willing to accept that history as proof of fulfillment. One might ask, "Where's the biblical proof that the prophecy was fulfilled?" but does the Bible truly answer every question posed? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way. Of COURSE, it doesn't answer every question! Proof of that is simple; merely ask a question that you KNOW the Bible doesn't talk about, like "What are the elements in nitric acid?")

I also believe (as you do, too) that most of the seventy Sevens of Dani'el 9 were fulfilled in the past. You believe that the exception is the seventieth Seven, which is assigned to the future. I believe that it is only the last HALF of the seventieth Seven that is still to be fulfilled in the future. JosyWales puts the whole seventy Sevens in the future as "Sevens" of days instead of years, falling in between the trumpet judgments of Revelation 9! These are just three different opinions, and we KNOW that there are others, such as full preterism which says the whole seventy Sevens were fulfilled in the past. How do we know which is true? Well, some mysteries won't be known until the Messiah returns with His saints. Then, we can ASK those who KNOW the truth! And, we will probably find that we BOTH had some things that were right, but MANY things that were wrong!

In the meantime, all we can do is assume a position is correct and run with it to its conclusions. If it leads to a contradiction, we have a choice to make: Either we cling to the position and attempt to find where the "conclusion" went wrong, or we must reject the position as untenable and choose a different position. JosyWales thinks there is nothing more to learn on the subject because "49 + 150 + 434 + 396.25 + 7 + 1,260 + 3.5 = 2,300." (Of course, it actually adds up to 2,299.75, but - hey! - "close enough for government work!") The bigger problem I see with JosyWales' point of view is "Dani'el 9 + Revelation 9 = Dani'el 8!" But, hey! Who am I to argue with "perfection?"

Finally, I think the thing that "locks you" into your position on Dani'el 8 and 9 (and probably Dani'el 11, too) is the way you treat the words "abomination of desolation." To you (and probably to JosyWales as well), it is a LABEL for that event which can ONLY be performed by the "Antichrist" or the Beast. The problem with that is that now those words can't mean anything else, nor can they be used in any other way! However, those words "shomeem" and "shiquwts" are fairly common in Hebrew and could be used for different situations in different contexts! So, just because one or both of the words were used in Dani'el 8:13, 9:26 and 11:31 does NOT mean that they are all talking about the same event! It should NOT be viewed as "THE abomination that makes desolate" but rather "AN abomination that makes desolate!" Not just ONE event, but one of MANY such events! It's not THAT the words are used but HOW the words are used that should take precedence in your eschatology.

Anyway, again, that's my opinion.

 

[JosyWales]

Well, while I am seeing a little activity here, I have to wonder if anyone is actually looking at the chart I created, or just trying to divert attention from it. Perhaps I should repost it again:

In response to Justin, I wonder if he really even looked at my chart because there is NO mention of ANY 7 year period in it at all. In fact, this is the point in a way. I am showing you that there is no 7 year anything. That is erroneous thinking based on the false day for year theory in which people have divorced the last week of Daniel from the previous 69 weeks for no reason other than they can’t make their own versions fit without doing so. If that was supposed to be true then there would have also been a break between the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks, which they run as concurrent as well as the fact that they can show no biblical reason as to why this first 69 weeks is separated from the last 1 week by a gap of over 2000 years except that it is the only way they can make it work. This makes no sense. My way shows that the bible is to be taken literally in this matter and even shows how it works.

Rockytopva has done the same thing. Instead of looking at what I have showed you in the chart, he simply comes up with some matching up of things at his own discretion, much like Vet and Retro, with no biblical backing other than it is what he wants to think. I have no problem with that, except this thread is about what I have discovered and shown in my chart.

Now Retro spends much time berating Vet for calling his theory 'deceptions' and, well, I don’t want to get into that, but I did see one thing that made me happy. Retro finally admitted that my math adds up to 2299.75 and 1 hour days. I am pleased that he admits to seeing this. I should point out that the prophecy in Daniel 8 states:

Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (Daniel 8:14)

If I am not mistaken, when you are .75 and 1 hour into the 2300th day, then that is definitely 'Unto' (which is the same as "until) as the scripture says. Once again, as I said, it is spot on as they say in England.

Also Retro misstated my position. What I have said (over and over I might add) is that Daniel 9 (the literal 70 weeks) plus all the times in Revelation from Rev 9 through Rev 13 (which by the way contain ALL the times of ALL the events listed in that particular book, thus showing I am not picking and choosing anything like everyone else, but am using it ALL) adds up to ending on and well into the exact 2300th day, thus proving the relationship between Daniel and Revelation. This is something no one else has ever been able to do and to ignore it is impossible.

Retro’s last paragraph seems it reflect what I have been trying to show you guys all along, that this set of events is a repeated process that has happened in imperfect forms several times in the past. The next one is going to be the kicker though and will catapult us into the Millennium.

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.


You gravely err in calling the opinion of someone else "another deception." I believe that you are wrong and I am right. Therefore, from my perspective, it is YOU who are promoting "another deception." Indeed, I find MANY such "deceptions" in your teaching as I do in those of JosyWales. Do I call your teachings "deceptions?" NO! They are merely your OPINIONS! It is better to call them what they really are: They are "errors," not "deceptions." You may BELIEVE that they are "deceptions," but it would be better for you to call them "errors" and not "deceptions," unless you know FULL WELL the other person's heart and can say without a doubt that they are PURPOSELY LYING to you.

There's an old joke:
Question: How do you know when a politician is lying? Answer: When his mouth is open!

I'm not a politician, brother! I'm also not a lawyer nor am I an actor. These, too, are professions that rely upon "lying." Lawyers will sometimes say things that they know are wrong and they don't really believe to make a case. Even the police and police detectives will sometimes use deception to trick a suspect into revealing the truth. Actors are ALWAYS pretending to be someone else and the words out of their mouths while they are doing their jobs acting, are PURPOSELY lying to the audience to make them believe that the actor is indeed the character he or she is portraying. My promise to you is that I am NOT lying to you. Therefore, unless you think that itself is a lie, you should not be so willing to call me a liar or to call my teachings a "deception."

While I may call your teachings "errors" (and I believe that they are), that, too, is just an opinion. In fact, I believe that YOU are the one who had been deceived in the past! Even your teachers, who probably meant well teaching you THEIR opinions that you have either adopted or adapted, have probably been so deceived by other well-meaning believers in their past. Who started these opinions? Who knows but God? Some are as quick as a duck on a June bug to say that they started with haSatan (Hebrew for "the enemy"), but I think that gives haSatan too much credit. Some errors are strictly human errors. Somebody makes a mistake or takes something the wrong way and - boom! - an error is born. Some people are too quick to say, "The devil made me do it!" We should all know that this statement is a cop-out and is not taking responsibility for one's own actions.

In any case, your opinions are no more supported by Scripture from my point of view than my opinions are from your point of view. Call it a draw. I do not find Dani'el 8 to be linked to Dani'el 9 at all except for their positions in his book. I believe that they are like entries in a journal, and are two separate accounts of incidents that happened to him. Furthermore, I find that Dani'el 8 was fulfilled in the past. I believe that 2 Maccabees is proof that the prophecy was fulfilled, but you are just not willing to accept that history as proof of fulfillment. One might ask, "Where's the biblical proof that the prophecy was fulfilled?" but does the Bible truly answer every question posed? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way. Of COURSE, it doesn't answer every question! Proof of that is simple; merely ask a question that you KNOW the Bible doesn't talk about, like "What are the elements in nitric acid?")

I also believe (as you do, too) that most of the seventy Sevens of Dani'el 9 were fulfilled in the past. You believe that the exception is the seventieth Seven, which is assigned to the future. I believe that it is only the last HALF of the seventieth Seven that is still to be fulfilled in the future. JosyWales puts the whole seventy Sevens in the future as "Sevens" of days instead of years, falling in between the trumpet judgments of Revelation 9! These are just three different opinions, and we KNOW that there are others, such as full preterism which says the whole seventy Sevens were fulfilled in the past. How do we know which is true? Well, some mysteries won't be known until the Messiah returns with His saints. Then, we can ASK those who KNOW the truth! And, we will probably find that we BOTH had some things that were right, but MANY things that were wrong!

In the meantime, all we can do is assume a position is correct and run with it to its conclusions. If it leads to a contradiction, we have a choice to make: Either we cling to the position and attempt to find where the "conclusion" went wrong, or we must reject the position as untenable and choose a different position. JosyWales thinks there is nothing more to learn on the subject because "49 + 150 + 434 + 396.25 + 7 + 1,260 + 3.5 = 2,300." (Of course, it actually adds up to 2,299.75, but - hey! - "close enough for government work!") The bigger problem I see with JosyWales' point of view is "Dani'el 9 + Revelation 9 = Dani'el 8!" But, hey! Who am I to argue with "perfection?"

Finally, I think the thing that "locks you" into your position on Dani'el 8 and 9 (and probably Dani'el 11, too) is the way you treat the words "abomination of desolation." To you (and probably to JosyWales as well), it is a LABEL for that event which can ONLY be performed by the "Antichrist" or the Beast. The problem with that is that now those words can't mean anything else, nor can they be used in any other way! However, those words "shomeem" and "shiquwts" are fairly common in Hebrew and could be used for different situations in different contexts! So, just because one or both of the words were used in Dani'el 8:13, 9:26 and 11:31 does NOT mean that they are all talking about the same event! It should NOT be viewed as "THE abomination that makes desolate" but rather "AN abomination that makes desolate!" Not just ONE event, but one of MANY such events! It's not THAT the words are used but HOW the words are used that should take precedence in your eschatology.

Anyway, again, that's my opinion.

The Daniel 9 70 weeks prophecy as written isn't all that difficult to discern using common sense, especially in relation to the command to restore Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity Daniel and his brethren had gone in. Nor is it difficult to discern that portion of the prophecy about Christ's first coming and being cut off, i.e., crucified per the OT prophets, and then the final "one week" events in relation to Bible prophecy for the end of this world.

So when someone comes along trying to place all those events for the last generation on earth and era when Christ's second coming will happen, well, those doing that show how far they have strayed from those simple Scriptures in Daniel. And no amount of glorious speech giving is going to hide that fact.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JosyWales.

Well, while I am seeing a little activity here, I have to wonder if anyone is actually looking at the chart I created, or just trying to divert attention from it. Perhaps I should repost it again:

In response to Justin, I wonder if he really even looked at my chart because there is NO mention of ANY 7 year period in it at all. In fact, this is the point in a way. I am showing you that there is no 7 year anything. That is erroneous thinking based on the false day for year theory in which people have divorced the last week of Daniel from the previous 69 weeks for no reason other than they can’t make their own versions fit without doing so. If that was supposed to be true then there would have also been a break between the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks, which they run as concurrent as well as the fact that they can show no biblical reason as to why this first 69 weeks is separated from the last 1 week by a gap of over 2000 years except that it is the only way they can make it work. This makes no sense. My way shows that the bible is to be taken literally in this matter and even shows how it works.

Rockytopva has done the same thing. Instead of looking at what I have showed you in the chart, he simply comes up with some matching up of things at his own discretion, much like Vet and Retro, with no biblical backing other than it is what he wants to think. I have no problem with that, except this thread is about what I have discovered and shown in my chart.

Now Retro spends much time berating Vet for calling his theory 'deceptions' and, well, I don’t want to get into that, but I did see one thing that made me happy. Retro finally admitted that my math adds up to 2299.75 and 1 hour days. I am pleased that he admits to seeing this. I should point out that the prophecy in Daniel 8 states:

Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (Daniel 8:14)

If I am not mistaken, when you are .75 and 1 hour into the 2300th day, then that is definitely 'Unto' (which is the same as "until) as the scripture says. Once again, as I said, it is spot on as they say in England.

Also Retro misstated my position. What I have said (over and over I might add) is that Daniel 9 (the literal 70 weeks) plus all the times in Revelation from Rev 9 through Rev 13 (which by the way contain ALL the times of ALL the events listed in that particular book, thus showing I am not picking and choosing anything like everyone else, but am using it ALL) adds up to ending on and well into the exact 2300th day, thus proving the relationship between Daniel and Revelation. This is something no one else has ever been able to do and to ignore it is impossible.

Retro’s last paragraph seems it reflect what I have been trying to show you guys all along, that this set of events is a repeated process that has happened in imperfect forms several times in the past. The next one is going to be the kicker though and will catapult us into the Millennium.

Brother, I've seen the fact that your numbers add up to 2299.75 days (+ 1 hour) all along! Whether acting as a computer engineer, a computer programmer, or an administrative assistant, I am primarily a mathematician, after all. Again, that's NOT the issue! The issue, as I see it, is that you are trying to mix Dani'el 9 with Revelation 9! They go together like oil and water!

First, there is nothing in either chapter that demands the presence of the other, and second, there is no "third party" Scripture that ties the two together! Putting the two together is COMPLETELY ARBITRARY! There is no biblical REASON to put them together! There's not even a SUGGESTION in the Scriptures ANYWHERE that they SHOULD go together!

IF they should go together, the math alone proves NOTHING! People use math to say all sorts of ridiculous things! Just look at how researchers report their findings without taking the time to validate their conclusions! Consider all the polls that politicians take to support some theory!

Do you remember "word problems" and how difficult they were to the majority of the math students? The reason why they were always so difficult is because they were APPLIED mathematics! It's not until you get into calculus that you understand this as a basic principle behind the math! It's like the units on the answer, in a way. Just as the number without the units is meaningless, so a number without the proper reason for the calculation in the first place is likewise meaningless!

To date, I have not seen you say ANYTHING that supports why you would mix the two chapters in the first place!

Shalom, veteran.

The Daniel 9 70 weeks prophecy as written isn't all that difficult to discern using common sense, especially in relation to the command to restore Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity Daniel and his brethren had gone in. Nor is it difficult to discern that portion of the prophecy about Christ's first coming and being cut off, i.e., crucified per the OT prophets, and then the final "one week" events in relation to Bible prophecy for the end of this world.

So when someone comes along trying to place all those events for the last generation on earth and era when Christ's second coming will happen, well, those doing that show how far they have strayed from those simple Scriptures in Daniel. And no amount of glorious speech giving is going to hide that fact.

RIGHT! And, no amount of Western simple thinking will suffice when it comes to Hebrew literature! For the most part, I agree with your assessment of Dani'el 9:24 and 25 and part of verse 26. HOWEVER, when you apply verse 27 to the "prince that shall come" instead of to the "Messiah," all you've proved is that you don't know Hebrew! It was the Messiah who was said to "strengthen the (Davidic) covenant with many for one Seven"; it was the Messiah who "put an end to the sacrifice and gift" by COMPLETING THEM ONCE FOR ALL TIME; and it was the Messiah who was said to leave them desolate for the "fanning out of abominations!" Indeed, the Messiah SAID He was leaving them desolate in Matthew 23:37-39!

Hebrew literature is more like the reading of an outline than following a straight, chronological account. Think of the "cutting off of the Messiah" as a major point in the outline (I.) and the three individual things in verse 27 (mentioned above) as the subpoints of that outline (A., B., and C.) Thus, it was at the MIDDLE of the seventieth Seven when all three of these subpoints occurred, and they DO all follow the first 69 Sevens because SO DOES THE SEVENTIETH SEVEN, including its midpoint!

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Revelation is the least studied subject of mine. I'm adept with many boks in the Bible, mainly the Penteteuch, Kings, Isaiah, and obviously as a Christian, the rest of the New Testament.

This is what I deduce the Beast of the Earth as being:

North America
South America
Europe
Africa
Asia
The Orient
Australia

The mightiest governments of those places will persuade first the people around them. This will be due to their likeness in culture and needs. They will converge with their surrounding countries, and eventually a seven headed beast, the beast of the whole Earth, will appear.

The Whore of Babylon is spoken by St. John as actually existing in his time, so that means the Whore has been present from then until now. This leaves China, for instance, a possibility.
As it happens, China is a superpower that matches America, and is also economically superior to America. It's national symbol is a dragon. It sort of adds up when you think about it.

But in truth, we are not supposed to know. If we did, we would be able to change it, and that contradicts God's infallible word. The Apocalypse of John is there simply for ample warning- to let you know what is happening as it is happening, so that all those who didn't beleive can see and redeem their souls.

 

[JosyWales]

It looks to me like Retro and Vet are almost exactly alike, with the exception of one thinking it has all happened in the past and the other saying that all has happened in the past, except for one week, which really isnt a week at all but 7 years. Of course neither one has any rebuttle to the fact that I have shown a clear link between Daniel and Revelation using 100% of what the bible says instead of "interpreting" parts of it at their whim and assigning events to it that only partially fit.

Vet doesnt even respond to what I am showing but simply says that if you dont see it his way, then you are straying from scripture, even tho Im the only one here actually sticking to it and not using weird non-biblically directed interpretations for the times listed or using unsupported events to try to make this fit.

I guess since neither of you can break my interpretation, all you can do is poo on it.

Retro, Im glad to see you can count. Thats a good sign. However, trying to say that combining Daniel and Revelation is like mixing oil and water is a serious denial of facts (real facts that I have shown in the bible and not made up ones like assigning dates to things you cant prove like you do).

I have shown that there is a clear link between Daniel and Revelation. It is concrete and obvious. Im sorry it does not jive with what you wish to believe, but then whats up with that anyway?

(Retro First, there is nothing in either chapter that demands the presence of the other, and second, there is no "third party" Scripture that ties the two together! Putting the two together is COMPLETELY ARBITRARY! There is no biblical REASON to put them together! There's not even a SUGGESTION in the Scriptures ANYWHERE that they SHOULD go together!

Retro may be able to count but he must also be a bit on the blind side to say there is no scripture to tie Daniel and Revelation together when were have this:

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

And this:

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And before Retro tries to deny his eyes and say these are somehow not related, Revelation follows it up with this that makes a solid tie with Daniel 12:7 in connecting this event with the Holy People:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

Man this is such simple stuff.

(Retro To date, I have not seen you say ANYTHING that supports why you would mix the two chapters in the first place!

You must be kidding. Oh, wait a minute, I get it. You, like probably most of the others, have not really LOOKED at anything I have written to support all this. I know I wrote a lot in support and maybe you think it was just boring to read, but I cant help that.

As for SilenceInMotion, its pretty clear that he hasn't looked at my chart at all, or if he did, he just dismissed it out of hand since it did not fit is own private interpretation and no manner of proofs are ever going to change that, but since the others are essentially the same, no problem.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

I have shown that there is a clear link between Daniel and Revelation

Daniel and John are two sides of the same coin- they share the same style of prophesy and very well correlate. I'm glad there are others that see that on here, I'd be very disappointed if there wasn't

 

[JosyWales]

Daniel and John are two sides of the same coin- they share the same style of prophesy and very well correlate. I'm glad there are others that see that on here, I'd be very disappointed if there wasn't

I am also glad to hear you say that Silence.

I was a bit suprised when I was told here that there was no relation between Daniel and Revelation myself by Retro. I had always accepted that these two books were obviously intterrelated and that it was one of the few things that most people accepted. To be told that such a relationship did not exist caught me off guard.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JosyWales.

It looks to me like Retro and Vet are almost exactly alike, with the exception of one thinking it has all happened in the past and the other saying that all has happened in the past, except for one week, which really isnt a week at all but 7 years. Of course neither one has any rebuttle to the fact that I have shown a clear link between Daniel and Revelation using 100% of what the bible says instead of "interpreting" parts of it at their whim and assigning events to it that only partially fit.

WOW!!!!! Don't you guys ever READ?!!! I did not say and have NEVER said that "it has all happened in the past!" GET IT RIGHT!!!!!!! I DO believe that the seventieth Seven is a Seven of years and that HALF of the Seven was fulfilled in the ministry of Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Christ) when He came for His first advent! The other half HE POSTPONED:

He was lamenting their abominations and their rejection of the Kingdom (by rejecting the King) when He said,

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

This is a fulfillment in part of Dani'el 9:27!

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

Vet doesnt even respond to what I am showing but simply says that if you dont see it his way, then you are straying from scripture, even tho Im the only one here actually sticking to it and not using weird non-biblically directed interpretations for the times listed or using unsupported events to try to make this fit.

I guess since neither of you can break my interpretation, all you can do is poo on it.

Retro, Im glad to see you can count. Thats a good sign. However, trying to say that combining Daniel and Revelation is like mixing oil and water is a serious denial of facts (real facts that I have shown in the bible and not made up ones like assigning dates to things you cant prove like you do).

I have shown that there is a clear link between Daniel and Revelation. It is concrete and obvious. Im sorry it does not jive with what you wish to believe, but then whats up with that anyway?

(Retro First, there is nothing in either chapter that demands the presence of the other, and second, there is no "third party" Scripture that ties the two together! Putting the two together is COMPLETELY ARBITRARY! There is no biblical REASON to put them together! There's not even a SUGGESTION in the Scriptures ANYWHERE that they SHOULD go together!

Retro may be able to count but he must also be a bit on the blind side to say there is no scripture to tie Daniel and Revelation together when were have this:

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

And this:

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And before Retro tries to deny his eyes and say these are somehow not related, Revelation follows it up with this that makes a solid tie with Daniel 12:7 in connecting this event with the Holy People:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

Man this is such simple stuff.

Simple minded, perhaps! I never said that Dani'el and Revelation didn't have some things in common; what I said was, "you are trying to mix Dani'el 9 with Revelation 9!"
THAT'S what doesn't go together! READ! Are you really that dense?!

(Retro To date, I have not seen you say ANYTHING that supports why you would mix the two chapters in the first place!

You must be kidding. Oh, wait a minute, I get it. You, like probably most of the others, have not really LOOKED at anything I have written to support all this. I know I wrote a lot in support and maybe you think it was just boring to read, but I cant help that.

As for SilenceInMotion, its pretty clear that he hasn't looked at my chart at all, or if he did, he just dismissed it out of hand since it did not fit is own private interpretation and no manner of proofs are ever going to change that, but since the others are essentially the same, no problem.

No, I've read your arguments, and a valid reason for putting Dani'el 9 together with Revelation 9-13 in the first place is not presented. You may be able to link Dani'el 12 with Revelation 9-13, but not chapter 9! It doesn't fit! Is that really so difficult for you to grasp?

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Hey guys. Although I've sort of enjoyed this tossing around of testosterone, has anyone considered that whatever the outcome; are you ready?

Will the son of man find faith upon the earth when he returns?

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.


RIGHT! And, no amount of Western simple thinking will suffice when it comes to Hebrew literature!

Bad excuse that assumes only Jewish people are able to understand the Old Testament Books. Apostle Paul said different...

2 Cor 3:14-16
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
(KJV)

Paul himself was at one time deceived by the "Jew's religion" as he admitted (Gal.1:13-14). So your Jewish ascendency inferences about understanding the Old Testament Scripture just ain't gonna' get it done. Even when Messianic Jews heed the doctrines of the "Jews' religion" from their unbelieving brethren, instead of listening to Christ Jesus, that vail is not removed (as per the above Scripture). Apostle Paul departed from the "Jews' religion". So why do some believing Messianic Jews still claim ascendency over Gentile brethren in that?

There is NO further need for the old fleshy Levitical priesthood. Christ nailed that old priesthood to His cross. All those in Christ Jesus now are priests. And one of the priest's jobs was to read God's Word to the people with giving them the meaning. The Holy Spirit does that for those who stay on Him now.

For the most part, I agree with your assessment of Dani'el 9:24 and 25 and part of verse 26. HOWEVER, when you apply verse 27 to the "prince that shall come" instead of to the "Messiah," all you've proved is that you don't know Hebrew! It was the Messiah who was said to "strengthen the (Davidic) covenant with many for one Seven"; it was the Messiah who "put an end to the sacrifice and gift" by COMPLETING THEM ONCE FOR ALL TIME; and it was the Messiah who was said to leave them desolate for the "fanning out of abominations!" Indeed, the Messiah SAID He was leaving them desolate in Matthew 23:37-39!

Christ being cut off and the prince that shall come are two separate objects in the Dan.9:26 verse.

You're adding to God's Word when you link Messiah with the Dan.9:27 verse, simply because there is no such reference there, not in the English, nor in the Hebrew. So why are you telling a fib as if it were there?

Hebrew literature is more like the reading of an outline than following a straight, chronological account. Think of the "cutting off of the Messiah" as a major point in the outline (I.) and the three individual things in verse 27 (mentioned above) as the subpoints of that outline (A., B., and C.) Thus, it was at the MIDDLE of the seventieth Seven when all three of these subpoints occurred, and they DO all follow the first 69 Sevens because SO DOES THE SEVENTIETH SEVEN, including its midpoint!

Now that's really rich! Chronological accounts are now wrong?!? That's what an outline actually is, isn't it? an ordered account, like 1, then comes 2, then comes 3, etc.? You're just not thinking, and obviously still subject to that vail Apostle Paul spoke of in the above Scripture.

I understand your meaning though, but you're linking the wrong subject and objects together.


Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

That threescore and two weeks (62) was first given in v.25, and included with the first period of seven weeks, totalling to 69 weeks. That underlined part is about Christ's first coming and being crucified ("cut off" - 29 A.D. using Bullinger's reckoning). But the next phrase in bold is not about Messiah. VERY easy... to know that too, simply because Christ Jesus did not destroy the city and the sanctuary, the Romans did in 70 A.D., around 40 years after Christ had already been crucified. And those desolations are about that coming pseudo-Christ setting up the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem for the last days prior to Christ's return, which... is what the subject flow of the next Dan.9:27 verse is about for the final "one week" remaining. All that truly is simple for those without the vail of confusion upon them because they listen to Christ.


27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

Because the Dan.9:26 last phrases are about the end, the flood, and the abomination of desolation, that's how simple it is to know this "he" has nothing to do with Christ Messiah.

 

[JosyWales]

JB_Reformed Baptist said: Hey guys. Although I've sort of enjoyed this tossing around of testosterone, has anyone considered that whatever the outcome; are you ready?

Will the son of man find faith upon the earth when he returns?

Hello JB, I must agree that this is getting a bit heated, but I suppose I should be thankful to God that debate is occuring. I wish Retro would calm down a little, but hey, what can you do. Both Retro and Vet are trying to put forth a Preterist viewpoint, based on some similarities in history that they can pair up with the writings of Daniel. When faced with pure bible that supports that NO part of it has happened yet, it may be too much for them.

In answer to your question tho, you can see that there is a group known as the Mighty and Holy People that the Beast tries to destroy, tho Daniel speaks of them being only scattered at the end of the 1260 days, which coincides with the death of the 2 witnesses. It is this group that, along with those who are resurrected at the return of Christ, will be there to meet Him and fight the last battle with the Beast.

So Yes, Christ will find Michael and his Angels along with all those who join them on the earth, though they might be in ruins, when He shows up. He will find faith on earth and, as Zecheriah says, "those that are feeble shall be as David and the House of David shall be as God, as the Angel of the Lord (who is Michael) before them" and the Beast will be destroyed.

As for Retro, the verses he puts forward are sketchy at best and he makes no effort to address the fact that the 3 1/2 times are listed in both Daniel and Revelation as I pointed out. I must suppose he again has no answer for that. He is getting a bit rabid tho, so I am not sure whats up with that.

As for Vet, he is so far off into Preterism (which is the belief that this has ALL already happened, which I think my chart disproves), he no longer even tries to address the chart, instead simply regurgetating the old ideas that most have already decided are false, which they do with good reason. My chart still stands, and these testosterone filled individuals have not provided one bit of information that can show differently. All they can do is repeat their own suppositions and hope that by much speaking, they can divert people away from what I am showing them.

You either have to accept that my chart provides the most amazing piece of coincidence in the bible or that it is true. I think the latter.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

Bad excuse that assumes only Jewish people are able to understand the Old Testament Books. Apostle Paul said different...

2 Cor 3:14-16
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
(KJV)

Paul himself was at one time deceived by the "Jew's religion" as he admitted (Gal.1:13-14). So your Jewish ascendency inferences about understanding the Old Testament Scripture just ain't gonna' get it done. Even when Messianic Jews heed the doctrines of the "Jews' religion" from their unbelieving brethren, instead of listening to Christ Jesus, that vail is not removed (as per the above Scripture). Apostle Paul departed from the "Jews' religion". So why do some believing Messianic Jews still claim ascendency over Gentile brethren in that?

There is NO further need for the old fleshy Levitical priesthood. Christ nailed that old priesthood to His cross. All those in Christ Jesus now are priests. And one of the priest's jobs was to read God's Word to the people with giving them the meaning. The Holy Spirit does that for those who stay on Him now.



Christ being cut off and the prince that shall come are two separate objects in the Dan.9:26 verse.

You're adding to God's Word when you link Messiah with the Dan.9:27 verse, simply because there is no such reference there, not in the English, nor in the Hebrew. So why are you telling a fib as if it were there?



Now that's really rich! Chronological accounts are now wrong?!? That's what an outline actually is, isn't it? an ordered account, like 1, then comes 2, then comes 3, etc.? You're just not thinking, and obviously still subject to that vail Apostle Paul spoke of in the above Scripture.

I understand your meaning though, but you're linking the wrong subject and objects together.


Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

That threescore and two weeks (62) was first given in v.25, and included with the first period of seven weeks, totalling to 69 weeks. That underlined part is about Christ's first coming and being crucified ("cut off" - 29 A.D. using Bullinger's reckoning). But the next phrase in bold is not about Messiah. VERY easy... to know that too, simply because Christ Jesus did not destroy the city and the sanctuary, the Romans did in 70 A.D., around 40 years after Christ had already been crucified. And those desolations are about that coming pseudo-Christ setting up the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem for the last days prior to Christ's return, which... is what the subject flow of the next Dan.9:27 verse is about for the final "one week" remaining. All that truly is simple for those without the vail of confusion upon them because they listen to Christ.


27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

Because the Dan.9:26 last phrases are about the end, the flood, and the abomination of desolation, that's how simple it is to know this "he" has nothing to do with Christ Messiah.

The part you have bold-faced above is not only not about the Messiah, it is also not about the "prince that shall come!" It's about the "PEOPLE of the prince that shall come!" The "of the prince that shall come" is a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE! It's merely an adjective that describes WHICH people! The "prince that shall come" is just the object of the preposition! As such, it has no part in the sentence by itself!

 

[JosyWales]

News Flash!!!!

It has just been pointed out to me that I do not mention when the actual return of Christ occurs in my chart. It happens on the 1290th day along with the 1st Resurrection, which coincides with the destruction of the Beast. 45 days after the Return of Christ, those believers who remained true to God throughout the Tribulation will recieve the Blessing of being allowed into the inner court of the Temple that is to be build while those who fell and joined the people will be relegated to the outer court. These will never see the face of God, just as Ezekiel spoke in Eze 44, thus fulfilling the prophecy of Daniel 12:2 & 3 about some being resurrected as stars and some resurrected to shame.

This is a gigantic oversight, and one which I will correct immediately. This chart is very much a work in progress and it is for enlightened constructive criticism to help me make it better.

 

[Rex]

News Flash!!!!

It has just been pointed out to me that I do not mention when the actual return of Christ occurs in my chart.

This is a gigantic oversight, and one which I will correct immediately.

News flash!!!! --->>>don't bother, the return of Christ is not an oversight it's completely unknown.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JosyWales.

...

As for Retro, the verses he puts forward are sketchy at best and he makes no effort to address the fact that the 3 1/2 times are listed in both Daniel and Revelation as I pointed out. I must suppose he again has no answer for that. He is getting a bit rabid tho, so I am not sure whats up with that.

...

(Is that your moniker or do you do that for fun? Y'know, "Jody Wales on EVERYONE!") "Rabid?" Nice. And you call yourself a Christian.

The three and a half times or rather "time, times (in dual), and half a time" using the Hebrew phrase "l-mow`eed mow`adiym vaacheetsiy" literally meaning "for a cycle, cycles (in dual), and its half" are the three and a half YEARS that are left from the Seven years of the seventieth Seven. We have two numbers in English grammar, singular and plural. Hebrew has three numbers, singular, dual, and plural. Dual is often used for articles of clothing, for instance, that are in matched sets, such as shoes, and body parts that occur in pairs. In English, we have to say "a pair of shoes," using four words instead of the one Hebrew word, na`aaliym.

The word "mow`eed" refers to the yearly cycle of holy days in the Jewish calendar. And, yes, the phrase is found in the Tanakh in Dani'el 12:7 and this phrase IS quoted in Revelation 12:14. However, again, this is NOT proof that Dani'el 9 should be merged with Revelation 9 to come up with some "total days" in Dani'el 8 found in your chart! It doesn't work that way! No matter how you FEEL the numbers should add up, it's still an ARBITRARY process to put these numbers together as you have done!

Yeshua` (Jesus) already fulfilled the first three and a half cycles within His time of "ministry," i.e. when He offered the Kingdom to Isra'el as the rightful heir to the throne of David. (Why is this so hard for y'all to understand?) When they rejected Him, He likewise rejected that generation and left them desolate UNTIL they can say, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," translated as "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the LORD," in Matthew 23:37-39. That is the gap that HE inserted into the seventy Sevens of Dani'el 9 for the "fanning out (like the feathers of a wing) of abominations" in rejecting Himself as their King!

As for being "rabid," it's frustrating to hear people constantly getting my position wrong, even after having explained my position SEVERAL times, both in this thread and in others on this forum! And, certain people, like veteran, should KNOW better than that!

 

[JosyWales]

Rex says:
News flash!!!! --->>>don't bother, the return of Christ is not an oversight it's completely unknown.

Gosh Rex, I didnt know that. Oh wait, I am not saying a date, just a point in a timeline. I think I will bother since it might be important, especially since someone mentioned that I was making no connection to Christ's Return in my chart, which I had to admit to them was a bad oversight on my part. Sorry if it bothers you tho (not really )

You guys cant beat Retro tho

Retro says:

(Is that your moniker or do you do that for fun? Y'know, "Jody Wales on EVERYONE!") "Rabid?" Nice. And you call yourself a Christian.

However he has called me a" stubborn mule's SKULL!" and more recently 'simple minded' and now he gets mad because I say 'rabid'? Well, if it makes you feel better, what can I say.

He then goes into some wordery to try to say that the 3 1/2 times of Daniel are somehow not the 3 1/2 times of Revelation, even tho I would think you would have to be blind not to see it. Well, maybe thats the method one must use to hold on to his viewpoint. If it works for him, who am I to say anything.

He then states that I am getting his position wrong, which I have pointed out that he has done the same to me (in detail I might add). However, I dont really think I got it wrong at all. He says there is no connection between Daniel and Revelation and I think there is. Pretty simple again and if this makes me 'simple minded' as you have said in the past, then I am glad I'm not as smart as you.

I still am happy that they cannot break my interpretation. I have to thank those who have attempted to refute my interpretation for making this clear.

Oh, and since he doesnt like my screen name, that just makes me even happier. Josey Wales, the movie character in "The Outlaw Josey Wales" never hurt anyone who wasn't evil and spent most of his time saving innocent people from the true bad guys. He befriended the weak and took on Beasts of men that no ordinary man could fight. I liked that so I use the name.