Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Lizbeth]

What happens then? Once you repent and believe on the Messiah, what happens then regarding sin?

I'm not sure what you mean by your question, but our sins are forgiven and cleansed and we are given a fresh new start, and placed on the path of righteousness by the Lord, going in a new direction than we were previously.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Job wasn't sinless

Righteousness does not mean holy. You keep trying to mash them together and it’s never going to work.

 

[MostlyConfused]

he was still falling short of the righteousness that is needed for eternal life.

To inherit life you do not need to be holy.

 

[MostlyConfused]

We always need to hear what the Spirit is saying. Just because the Lord uses the same word in different places, it doesn't mean that He means the exact same literal thing by it in every instance.

We need to resolve these apparent contradictions rather than pitting one scripture against another.

Job wasn't sinless, that is obvious, for one thing because he still needed to repent, which he did at the end of the book. I believe he was righteous as far as it was possible to be righteous before the cross, and more righteous than most....apparently the most righteous of anyone living at that time. But at the time the Lord was saying Job was righteous and perfect in all his ways, he was still falling short of the righteousness that is needed for eternal life. Even the word "perfect" there is talking about whole hearted devotion and whole hearted efforts to serve the Lord, again as far as it was possible before the cross - it isn't talking about the "perfection" we are aiming to walk in as born again believers since the cross.....which perfection/wholeness is spiritual, not of our own. Job's perfection would have been of his own. It fell short of eternal life, but was pleasing to the Lord, so much so that at the end of his trial, He met him face to face, granted him repentance, and made him qualified for eternal life along with other faithful saints, after Jesus died and was resurrected (where it says "they without us would not be made perfect"). If Job's perfection were the same perfection as that after the cross, why did it say the old testament saints would only be made perfect along with we who came along after the cross? Ditto regarding righteousness - Job's righteousness is not talking about the same righteousness that we have been given, which is needed for eternal life. I hope that makes sense, I was hoping to be more brief.

Here below the Lord is talking about the righteousness needed for eternal life....nobody has it in their own right, because all have sinned - except Jesus:

Rom 3:9-13

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

You’re like those guys in the park who Play the shell game.

 

[ProDeo]

What happens then? Once you repent and believe on the Messiah, what happens then regarding sin?

The Holy Spirit will tell you what sin is, Jesus said so.

 

[JustMe]

To inherit life you do not need to be holy.

Holiness is essential to inherit eternal life. While eternal life is a gift received through faith in Jesus Christ rather than earned by works, holiness is a necessary evidence and consequence of that salvation. As we possess the Spirit of God we are considered holy as a consequence of justification and the ability to be righteous by and in Christ. It is a positional starting view. After that we practice in our walk righteousness, where it becomes life changing, character-changing. We sin less and are prone to more righteous acts and begin to practice being holy. Each person reaches this point differently in time and quality.

Key biblical and theological points include:

Biblical Mandate: Hebrews 12:14 explicitly states, "Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

Distinction Between Cause and Effect: Holiness is not the cause of salvation but the fruit of it. Believers are saved by grace through faith, but genuine faith results in a transformed life marked by sanctification and separation from sin.

Practical Necessity: Scripture warns that those who continue in unrepentant sin, including sexual immorality and other works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9–10).

Two Aspects: Holiness involves both positional sanctification (being declared holy in Christ at salvation) and progressive sanctification (the ongoing process of becoming practically holy in daily life).

In summary, one cannot claim to have inherited eternal life through faith while remaining indifferent to holiness; a pursuit of a holy life is the required response to God's grace.

 

[ScottA]

Another way to understand "why so many teach against what Jesus taught", is because many consider themselves (self) approved by much study, strong belief, and their own interpretation and understanding. That does not qualify one to say "God told me." In other words, no, no one can by their own doing, "find themselves approved."

Meanwhile, the only thing that Jesus has appointed for these times, is what comes directly from the Father, and what Jesus gives to the Holy Spirit to speak through those He sends. Period.

 

[JimKnox]

Baptist?

Close.
Why does it matter to you?

 

[Lizbeth]

You’re like those guys in the park who Play the shell game.

It sounds as though you didn't understand my post.

 

[MostlyConfused]

It sounds as though you didn't understand my post.

I understood what you were saying. But the contortions that you take to arrive at it seem designed to pull the wool over your OWN eyes.

 

[Lizbeth]

I understood what you were saying. But the contortions that you take to arrive at it seem designed to pull the wool over your OWN eyes.

Are you just going to ignore the scriptures I posted which clearly say there is none righteous, no not one? I pointed out another contradiction with respect to being "perfect" as well, and resolved it too..... and you are ignoring that as well. It's not convoluted....just take your time with it.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

...make no mistake, a righteous man does what is right.

And when the righteous man doesn't do right, then what?

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

The FULL gospel that Jesus and Paul preached was on 2 levels.....for the righteous and the holy. Just like Paul I fully preach the gospel.


For the righteous the gospel is the sermon on the mount (Matt 5, Luke 6). This is the gospel of MERCY

For the holy the gospel is sitting with Christ on His throne as He empowers us to walk in victory over sin, the devil and the world. GLORY ensues.

The problem with your gospel is you make justification contingent on actually being righteous in behavior - what you call 'holiness'. If justification is determined solely on your holy behavior you will never have the declaration of right standing with God that you need to get into the kingdom of God, because you are not always holy in behavior.

Born again people know this. That's why they are born again. They came to the end of themselves knowing they can't always live up to the righteous standard of behavior required by God for him to declare them righteous. And so, like the tax collector in Luke 18:13, they have cast themselves on God's mercy, openly confessing their unrighteousness, and God in his mercy has forgiven them and given them a declaration of right standing with him as a free gift of his grace.

You can't be born again until you honestly realize you can't get from here to there on the merit of your righteous behavior because you're not always righteous in behavior. The guilt of your unrighteous behavior doesn't go away just because you determine not to continue in that unrighteousness. It's always there on your record as a matter of historical fact.

God is just. The just and lawful penalty for sin must be administered. Born again people know this and believe God's word that Jesus absorbed that penalty into himself in their place on the cross and that he will forgive the guilt of their unrighteousness and make them legally righteous in his sight as a free gift of his grace if they'll believe and trust in that grace. And that he also gives the Holy Spirit to transform them and give them power over the sin that condemned them. And as children of God, they learn to use that power as they grow and mature in knowledge.

You can only get from here to there by the mercy of God's forgiveness which wipes away the unrighteousness that keeps you distant from him and unable to enter the kingdom. Your record of unrighteousness will always stand in the way until it is forgiven by God. You receive that forgiveness by having faith in his word that he will forgive you through the forgiveness he has made available through the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Sin is atoned for through blood, because the just penalty for the sin of mankind is death. You can either pay that penalty yourself and die for your own sins or accept God's free offer to let Jesus' death on the cross be the just payment for your sins. Born again people have chosen the latter.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

So how are we going to handle this? Should we draw straws to determine who’s going to go and confront God for lying when He said Job was righteous? Any volunteers?

There is the righteousness of law, and there is the righteousness that is by faith.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

The unbelief here is incredible. Also lack of honesty and reading skills. Believe as you want...you are fully self-deceived in your self-justification.

What's incredible is you can't see that you are the one who is trying to be justified by self. We are made right with God by the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. You are attempting to be made right with God through your righteous works. Won't work. You aren't righteous enough to get right with God that way. And even if you could be righteous enough with much effort, there's always the record of your past unrighteousness that stands between you and God and never goes away because you don't believe in his forgiveness. There is no good news in your gospel.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

That is only the righteousness definition.

The holiness definition is....all that is not of faith is sin.

Sin is failing to be righteous as God is righteous. And it is that failure that keeps all men out of the kingdom of God. Only the forgiveness of God can remove the guilt of unrighteousness that keeps a person out of the kingdom of God. Adding righteousness to the guilt of unrighteousness does not atone for unrighteousness and bring you near to God. The guilt of unrighteousness must be removed, and can only be removed, through forgiveness.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

That is rightly dividing the word.

Leaving out faith in the forgiveness of God is not rightly dividing the word of God.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

The FULL gospel that Jesus and Paul preached was on 2 levels.....for the righteous and the holy. Just like Paul I fully preach the gospel.


For the righteous the gospel is the sermon on the mount (Matt 5, Luke 6). This is the gospel of MERCY

For the holy the gospel is sitting with Christ on His throne as He empowers us to walk in victory over sin, the devil and the world. GLORY ensues.

The Full Gospel includes receiving, by faith, the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ's blood for atonement and the forgiveness of sin.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

You have not added mercy and forgiveness into it. A righteous man is not a holy man. Righteous men can do what God sees as right and other times they can do what God sees as not right. But they can ask for mercy and forgiveness and believe that He is merciful as He has said He is. His mercies begin anew each morning. That means He is actively seeking to be merciful to us on a daily basis.

What is in dispute here is how one thinks he is made right with God - through the righteousness of your behavior, or by the righteousness that is by faith in the substitutionary death of Christ.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

The ONLY righteousness that gets us translated into the heavenly realm to walk as Jesus walked in HIS perfection is God's own righteousness...not our own. Our righteousness SUPPORTS that higher walk...because unrighteousness does not inherit life.

You don't do that, so you're not going to be "translated into the heavenly realm." And even if you could eventually always "walk in the perfection of God's own righteousness" there's still the guilt of your past failure to do that standing in the way between you and being "translated into the heavenly realm." God's forgiveness received by faith is the only way to be righteous enough to enter the kingdom of God. You don't walk in God's righteousness well enough to enter in on the basis of your righteous walk. Your unrighteousness destroys any hope you have of entering into the kingdom on the merit of your righteous behavior. Only God's forgiveness can make your unrighteousness that keeps you out of the kingdom of God go away.