Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Judge Hardcastle]

That's a lie of the devil. It is no wonder you live in defeat. The devil teaches defeatism.

Romans 8:9 "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. "

1 John 5:18 "We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

You do not know what 'not being in the flesh' means. It does not mean you cannot sin, and never want to.

To not be in the flesh means your relationship with your flesh has changed and you do not have to do what it says anymore. It no longer has authority and power over you to make you bear its fruit. Born again, saved, Spirit filled children of God spend a lifetime learning to realize the reality of this truth.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You're not getting it. Temptation is the desire to sin. Jesus was tempted just as we are. You say if you're really born again you no longer have the desire to sin. Jesus was not born again in your theology.

I did not have a desire to sin, but I know the Word, and shut down my free will. Remember Adam wasn't created with a desire to sin, just free will.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It does not mean you cannot sin, and never want to.

Yes it does, because Jesus takes away all desire to sin, and in Him is no sin. I am in Him, and He is in Me, and we communicate continuously.

You are recklessly playing the devil, and are in communication with him, listening to his lies of defeatism.

 

[Laurina]

Okay, then your argument about being fearful doesn't have any basis. You have been saying we need to be fearful.

You're not understanding me at all!! When I say we need to have "the fear of the Lord" you hear fearful. Please show me where I said we need to be fearful.

Now you're saying we need to be fearful if/when we sin.

Please quote me. I want to see exactly where I said that. Please don't put words in my mouth and then jump to false conclusions based on your faulty understanding. You're better off to ask questions.

Can you not understand that having the fear of the Lord and being fearful is NOT the same???

 

[David1701]

Obviously, I obey Paul and reckon myself free from sin. In other words, I tell myself the truth. Proverbs 23:5 "as a man thinks in his heart so is he." If you keep telling yourself you are a sinner, you will be. It was false teachers that told the post apostolic church that you will "always sin" until you die and your body is resurrected. They had the felonious idea that sin was rooted in the body, not the sin nature. It is our sin nature that is born again clean.

So, you believe that you never sin, in desire, thought, word or deed?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So, you believe that you never sin, in desire, thought, word or deed?

Right. That wasn't always true. You see, it is Jesus, not I who is the Author of my faith. What you probably have not been taught is that Jesus takes away THE DESIRE to sin, and in Him is no sin. Once you learn the truth, the truth will set you free. Free from what? SIN, including the source - the sin nature. Those sins are called lawlessness, and are sins unto death. This was taught by the Apostles, and into the Catholic denomination who called them mortal sins. It was the Reformation that dumbed down this important knowledge and called all sin, "sin is sin." From this one blunder came many false doctrines. Instead of Jesus taking away our old sins, the Reformation adds "present and future" sins. They made grace a license to sin. Martin Luther even taught to SIN BOLDLY - on purpose to show the power of grace.

After the first phase of our salvation, Jesus continues His work for the second phase of our salvation unto holiness, as the Finisher of our faith. This is where He matures all the fruit of the Spirit. Actions from immature fruit are called "sins not unto death" the Catholic Church calls venial sins. He's been working on those for the past 49 years, and only He knows when He has completed this phase.

The first and second phases of our salvation are called His righteousness being revealed from FAITH to FAITH, Romans 1:16-17.

 

[ProDeo]

I just found this verse:

Rev. 19:5
"And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great."

That's why I said and still say "fear of the Lord" not just fear....go back and check what I said!
Now, do your own in depth study on this.
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT!!!
I had listed a few verses, but my study doesn't help you. You have to do the work to be able to understand this at the depth that is needed!!

P.S. UNLESS you hear "Fear not" you're wise to fear!!! Don't assume the "fear not", that will get you the same end as Uzza!

I am sorry, I can't follow your thoughts.

The fear of the Lord has many aspects, if one is a believer or not is one component with different keywords, I tried to give some incomplete words, I quote -

1. afraid, scared, anxiety, guilt, punishment.
2. Holy Fear, awe, respectfully, reverent, submission.

Tell me your definitions, examples, feelings.

It's not that simple at all.

Thanks.

 

[ProDeo]

P.S. @ProDeo

Why in Luke 4:18 is "aphesis" translated as "deliverance" and "liberty" (it's used twice in that verse)??? ...and then, in most other places it's translated as forgiveness or remission (remission is closer in meaning because in remission the power is taken away, but freedom is clearer in meaning, as in freedom from sin).

I am not going to argue with Bible Hub Greek, nor with the translations of the KJV, ESV and YLT.

 

[David1701]

Right. That wasn't always true. You see, it is Jesus, not I who is the Author of my faith. What you probably have not been taught is that Jesus takes away THE DESIRE to sin, and in Him is no sin. Once you learn the truth, the truth will set you free. Free from what? SIN, including the source - the sin nature. Those sins are called lawlessness, and are sins unto death. This was taught by the Apostles, and into the Catholic denomination who called them mortal sins. It was the Reformation that dumbed down this important knowledge and called all sin, "sin is sin." From this one blunder came many false doctrines. Instead of Jesus taking away our old sins, the Reformation adds "present and future" sins. They made grace a license to sin. Martin Luther even taught to SIN BOLDLY - on purpose to show the power of grace.

After the first phase of our salvation, Jesus continues His work for the second phase of our salvation unto holiness, as the Finisher of our faith. This is where He matures all the fruit of the Spirit. Actions from immature fruit are called "sins not unto death" the Catholic Church calls venial sins. He's been working on those for the past 49 years, and only He knows when He has completed this phase.

The first and second phases of our salvation are called His righteousness being revealed from FAITH to FAITH, Romans 1:16-17.

It's true that not all sins are equally bad; but, they are all against God. We all sin, in thought, word and deed, so we all need to confess those sins to the Lord.

To "sin boldly", even to show the power of grace, is completely contrary to Scripture!

Rom. 3:8 (KJV) And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

No, I don't accept that. Redemption doesn't go far enough.

Try again.

Redemption doesn't go far enough for what?

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Yeah, the soul that sins, it shall die.

And yet you are sure you will not die when you sin. But you don't have the protection of the propitiation of Christ's sacrifice to protect you from the coming wrath of God. So how are you not going to die?

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

When I say we need to have "the fear of the Lord" you hear fearful. Please show me where I said we need to be fearful.

Please quote me. I want to see exactly where I said that. Please don't put words in my mouth and then jump to false conclusions based on your faulty understanding. You're better off to ask questions.

Can you not understand that having the fear of the Lord and being fearful is NOT the same???

You said this:

How does this verse in Hebrews fit with 1 John 4???

Hebrews 10:31 "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

And I said you don't have to be fearful of God's judgment when you live like Jesus in this life.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Yes it does, because Jesus takes away all desire to sin, and in Him is no sin. I am in Him, and He is in Me, and we communicate continuously.

But Jesus himself had the desire to sin. He was tempted in all ways just as we are.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

I did not have a desire to sin, but I know the Word, and shut down my free will.

That's great. But actually what you did was you exercised your free will to not sin. The free will that God restored to you when you were saved. Your will used to be captive to the devil. He gave you back your free will.

2 Timothy 2:25-26
25...that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Remember Adam wasn't created with a desire to sin...

You sure about that?

Genesis 3:6
6When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

You are recklessly playing the devil, and are in communication with him, listening to his lies of defeatism.

I am not defeated. How am I believing lies of defeatism? If those are lies, they have not defeated me. I look like Jesus more than I ever have in my life. And not because I'm great, or special. But because he knows how to do that in a person.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

What you probably have not been taught is that Jesus takes away THE DESIRE to sin...

I'm confident that @David1701 knows what it actually means to not have the desire to sin. It does not mean you are never tempted by sin. It means in the deepest part of your being you don't want to sin because a transformation has occurred, despite the fact that the desire to sin may present itself in the flesh in the form of various temptations.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Actions from immature fruit are called "sins not unto death"

Sin is not unto death for the born again believer because it is forgiven through Jesus' sacrifice that they believe and trust in, not because some sins are unto death while others are not unto death (with the exception of blasphemy of the Spirit, of course).

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

What you probably have not been taught is that Jesus takes away THE DESIRE to sin, and in Him is no sin. Once you learn the truth, the truth will set you free.

He does take away the desire to sin when you are tempted. Just not in the way you say that means. When tempted, and every fiber of your flesh wants to sin a particular sin, if you come helplessly before the Lord and cry out to him and are still before him and wait for him, the desire to sin will go away. It really will.

From there the battle with sin becomes a question of whether or not you really want it to go away. As you mature in Christ, you will want it to go away more and more. That's the work that Christ works in us. He knows how to bring a person to that point. He knows exactly what circumstances of life, what failures in life, will be useful to bringing you to that point. In the case of your adultery, it's apparent that God accomplished that while you were still unsaved. Not terribly uncommon, particularly in the life of addicts. For the rest of us, we may not even encounter the matter of adultery, or an addiction, and have to deal with it until after we are already saved.

Your teaching that Jesus taking away the desire to sin means you never desire to sin after being born again is completely false. Your desire to commit sin in what you call the maturing of your immature fruit is in fact you desiring to sin.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Read James again. Temptation is not a sin. Acting on a temptation becomes sin.

What you're not getting is temptation is a desire to sin.
Jesus was tempted to sin. Jesus struggled with the desire to sin, just as we do. In your theology, that means he was not born again.

 

[Laurina]

I am sorry, I can't follow your thoughts.

The fear of the Lord has many aspects, if one is a believer or not is one component with different keywords, I tried to give some incomplete words, I quote -

1. afraid, scared, anxiety, guilt, punishment.
2. Holy Fear, awe, respectfully, reverent, submission.

Tell me your definitions, examples, feelings.

It's not that simple at all.

Thanks.

Okay, sorry about that.
Presently when I read in the Bible about the "fear of the Lord" (there are many verses) I believe it to mean #2, Holy fear, awe, reverence, reverent respect, total submission. And this was something I learned by experience when I was part of a fellowship some 25+ years ago. The presence of the Lord was heavily with and on us for about 2ish years.
During that time, it was a fearful thing just to prepare to go to our meetings. Fearful because I didn't want to disrespect, dishonour, fall short or disappoint God in any way. (All the members felt that way...we had a healthy fear because we also experienced God's discipline and displeasure). I made sure that my conscious was completely clean before showing up.

When in my younger years (having grown up in a Christian household) I had a year or 2 of rebellion and I was in sin, I experienced #1 (I did not experience all of what you listed, but I agree it all could be included in the list), guilt (because I knew better), scard of getting caught in my rebellion (yet knowing that God saw ALL), but not scard enough to stop. I was doing what I wanted to do knowing it wasn't God’s will. Foolishness!! Thinking back, rebellion is just plain stupid and unwise because your only hurting yourself (and perhaps others). I had to fail big time before I cried out to God. And, true to His word, He rescued me and set me on a much better path. I'm still on that path....way, way, way farther down the road from when I started 40 years ago.

I would say, because of the sum of my experiences with God in my 61 years of life I have a healthy fear of Him (although it's a very small sample size compared to His eternity). So, when I read about the fear of the Lord in His word, I whole-heartedly agree!
I also think it's very important to learn about it as it could save you...it's as important as learning about His love. (It's double-sided...the fear of the Lord AND the love of God...a perfect balance.)
For your benefit I will also add that I know Him to be very loving, caring, thoughtful, faithful, tender-hearted, fiercely protective, long-suffering, kind, wise, and humorous.

I hope i explained myself better so you can follow (understand).

Peace and blessings!