Smoke Screens?

[GodsGrace]

Why do we suppose there was eternal life there in the first place?
John 10.28-29:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

It's really simple F.
God Father gave to Jesus the saved persons for safe-keeping.
What made them be saved..or "elected" or "chosen", which is what elected means.?

They accepted God's terms.
They believed in God/Jesus and thus had faith in God and for that faith they were saved. Freely. Only by their faith.

Nothing can pluck them out of God's hand....
but can we walk out?

Do we have FREE WILL OR NOT?

What do you believe?

 

[justbyfaith]

@farouk has given you a like....
but in your very next post you fix what you said above, which is not very clear.

It's important when speaking about salvation issues to be VERY CLEAR in our speech.

If the branch is not drawing nourishment, it is not producing fruit.
The branches that do no produce fruit are CUT OFF.
John 15:2 EVERY BRANCH THAT DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT...
THE FATHER TAKES AWAY.

That is very clear indeed.

However it is not the good fruit that saves...rather it is the relationship wherein the person is connected as a branch to the vine.

The good fruit is only the natural result of that relationship.

So then, let it be our endeavor to cultivate a relationship with Jesus Christ rather than to do good works in an attempt to be saved...and if we do this, good works will stem out of that relationship.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is the for ever fear of the LORD spoken of in Jeremiah 32:38-40 and Psalms 19:9 that motivates us to stay as close to Jesus as possible...thus we will never overstep the boundary that defines salvation.

If anyone does not have that fear, I suppose that they can overstep that boundary...but I would question whether their salvation was exactly genuine or not.

Because John 5:24 and John 10:27-30 seem to me to be pretty clear that a person who is in the Lord's hand cannot be snatched from it...and two passages that I quoted above mean that neither will we walk away.

 

[GodsGrace]

However it is not the good fruit that saves...rather it is the relationship wherein the person is connected as a branch to the vine.

The good fruit is only the natural result of that relationship.

So then, let it be our endeavor to cultivate a relationship with Jesus Christ rather than to do good works in an attempt to be saved...and if we do this, good works will stem out of that relationship.

I agree. But we need to be careful how it's said.
Again, I can only repeat...WORKS DO NOT SAVE US.
AFTER salvation...good works show our salvation..
if there are no good works...it's a good sign there's a problem.

Anyway, we never discuss what these good works are...

 

[GodsGrace]

It is the for ever fear of the LORD spoken of in Jeremiah 32:38-40 and Psalms 19:9 that motivates us to stay as close to Jesus as possible...thus we will never overstep the boundary that defines salvation.

If anyone does not have that fear, I suppose that they can overstep that boundary...but I would question whether their salvation was exactly genuine or not.

Because John 5:24 and John 10:27-30 seem to me to be pretty clear that a person who is in the Lord's hand cannot be snatched from it...and two passages that I quoted above mean that neither will we walk away.

You believe we cannot walk away?
I'm not going to pursue this right now...
But I DO believe we are free to abandon God whenever we want to.
Not that we should want to...but it IS possible because the N.T. speaks to this.

 

[justbyfaith]

I agree. But we need to be careful how it's said.
Again, I can only repeat...WORKS DO NOT SAVE US.
AFTER salvation...good works show our salvation..
if there are no good works...it's a good sign there's a problem.

Anyway, we never discuss what these good works are...

I think that they are primarily defined by what we do for the least of these His brethren...

 

[farouk]

It's really simple F.
God Father gave to Jesus the saved persons for safe-keeping.
What made them be saved..or "elected" or "chosen", which is what elected means.?

They accepted God's terms.
They believed in God/Jesus and thus had faith in God and for that faith they were saved. Freely. Only by their faith.

Nothing can pluck them out of God's hand....
but can we walk out?

Do we have FREE WILL OR NOT?

What do you believe?

I do prefer the term 'human responsibility' to 'free will'. It seems to fit passages such as Ephesians 2.1-10 much better.

 

[justbyfaith]

You believe we cannot walk away?
I'm not going to pursue this right now...
But I DO believe we are free to abandon God whenever we want to.
Not that we should want to...but it IS possible because the N.T. speaks to this.

Technically anyone can walk away....however the fear of the LORD, if it is securely planted in the heart, will absolutely prevent a man from doing so.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think that they are primarily defined by what we do for the least of these his brethren...

Yes.
Jesus spoke also of behavior which is found in beatitudes in Mathew 5:3-9
And, yes, of course what you mentioned above in Mathew 25.

I do want to take this opportunity to say that whatever we do that is good after being saved...we do for God.

Even if it's just being friendly to a neighbor....

What we do for God. ... is a "work" for God.
Making a nice dinner for the family can be devoted to God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do prefer the term 'human responsibility' to 'free will'. It seems to fit passages such as Ephesians 2.1-10 much better.

This is interesting.
If we have responsibility...doesn't that mean we're free?

If I have the responsibility to make dinner every evening...
does this mean I MUST make dinner?
Can't I decline?

 

[GodsGrace]

Technically anyone can walk away....however the fear of the LORD, if it is securely planted in the heart, will absolutely prevent a man from doing so.

Oh.
But I don't fear the Lord.
I feel love for what He did for me.
I fear Him in the sense of deep respect.

IOW, do we obey out of fear or out of love?
It could be out of fear,,,the person is still saved...
but they'd be missing a lot.

 

[Enoch111]

We have to be right with God for the rest of our lives.... not just one moment when we become saved....declared justified.

That is absolutely correct and scriptural. God never intended for anyone to be justified and then just leave it at that. And that is why God gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit, so that every Christian is empowered to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. This happens when Christians walk in the Spirit and are filled with the Spirit. And that is sanctification.

But once again, that is not the end of the story. God's eternal purpose for His children is that they be perfected and glorified (bodies, souls, and spirit) so that they resemble Christ exactly. "Conformed to the image of His Son" means becoming replicas of Christ by God's grace nad power. Not by our own efforts. And not becoming "little gods" either. And that is where election and predestination come into the picture. Romans 8:29,30 summarizes the whole plan of salvation. However, Calvinism has distorted the meaning of predestination by asserting that God elects/predestines some for salvation and others for damnation. And that is a damnable doctrine.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Genesis 15:6
Abraham obeyed the LORD and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Actually, does it say in Genesis 15:6 that he obeyed God, or does it say that he believed God?

 

[marks]

God's eternal purpose for His children is that they be perfected and glorified (bodies, souls, and spirit) so that they resemble Christ exactly. "Conformed to the image of His Son" means becoming replicas of Christ by God's grace nad power. Not by our own efforts.

That's right. Being predestined, it's not like it won't, or even might not happen. We work out what He works in, but there can be no mistake, He will complete His good work in us until that day. That work will alway be happening, but it won't finish until then.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

Oh.
But I don't fear the Lord.
I feel love for what He did for me.
I fear Him in the sense of deep respect.

IOW, do we obey out of fear or out of love?
It could be out of fear,,,the person is still saved...
but they'd be missing a lot.

Please read the following passages:

Jer 32:38, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Psa 19:9, The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

If you want to identify the fear that is spoken of as reverence/respect, that is fine and dandy; however, such a fear as what you speak of may not serve to keep a person in the kingdom when they desire to walk away.

The following kind of fear, however, will:

2Co 5:11, Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
.
.
.
Mat 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luk 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I did read that book but its been so long I forget what it was about.

Haha, that looks insane. Grailhunter removed quite a few of his posts about a book called The Shack. I really wasn't talking to myself, I swear!

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, does it say in Genesis 15:6 that he obeyed God, or does it say that he believed God?

Here it is:

Genesis 15:6
6Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness

You're right...it says "believed God".

Abraham believed God.
The word Believe has the connotation of Obedience in it....
But it does say believe.

Thanks.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Here it is:

Genesis 15:6
6Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness

You're right...it says "believed God".

Abraham believed God.
The word Believe has the connotation of Obedience in it....
But it does say believe.

Thanks.

Yeah, the word believe should naturally have the connotation of obey. Men have taken it into insanity though,imo, and we have a real mess on our hands.

But we do learn the obedience of trust. We move from glory to glory. I started out believing God existed. That's what I first saw. It was later that I saw my disobedience in trust on various things He had said.

He gives me what I'm ready to bear.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please read the following passages:

Jer 32:38, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Psa 19:9, The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

If you want to identify the fear that is spoken of as reverence/respect, that is fine and dandy; however, such a fear as what you speak of may not serve to keep a person in the kingdom when they desire to walk away.

The following kind of fear, however, will:

2Co 5:11, Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
.
.
.
Mat 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luk 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

I don't know what to say.
You're happy that persons fear God?

I was taught fear as a little girl.
It didn't save me.

God's love saved me and I'll be forever grateful.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, the word believe should naturally have the connotation of obey. Men have taken it into insanity though,imo, and we have a real mess on our hands.

But we do learn the obedience of trust. We move from glory to glory. I started out believing God existed. That's what I first saw. It was later that I saw my disobedience in trust on various things He had said.

He gives me what I'm ready to bear.

Same here.
It's what we call growth.
Seems like God demands more and more.
But it also seems that we're happy to do it...if we can.

Here come the faith only believers...