Smoke Screens?

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GerhardEbersoehn

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The fact that the death of Christ brought an end to the Mosaic Law is quite clearly stated in the New Testament. (Romans 10:4 Eph. 2:15, Col. 2:14, Hebrews 8:13&10:9) Our Holy Father said, He would effect a New Covenant…..(Hebrews 8:8)…..Not like the Covenant He made with our fathers….(Hebrews 8:9)….This Covenant would be written in our hearts…..(Hebrews 8:10)…..and He will make the Old Covenant Obsolete.

First: This is a great fat lie because _It_Is_Written_ the New Covenant has been God's ONLY ETERNAL NEW COVENANT OF GRACE -- here, Written of as in the Old Testament already.

Next: This is a great fat lie because it is never Written God's was an <old covenant>. God never had an <old covenant>, never made an <old covenant>, never <effected> an <old covenant>.

YOU DESPISE THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD THE SCRIPTURES, then demand your false spirit must be believed instead.
 
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Grailhunter

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First: This is a great fat lie because _It_Is_Written_ the New Covenant has been God's ONLY ETERNAL NEW COVENANT OF GRACE -- here, Written of as in the Old Testament already.

Next: This is a great fat lie because it is never Written God's was an <old covenant>. God never had an <old covenant>, never made an <old covenant>, never <effected> an <old covenant>.

YOU DESPISE THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD THE SCRIPTURES, then demand your false spirit must be believed instead.

Over 50 times in the Old Testament it is stated that the Laws are eternal.
Christ testified to this and warned about changing anything in them.
Yet some in Christianity extracted ten of the 613 Laws of Moses and edified them.
The fact is, none of them pertain to Christians...we are not of that Covenant...we are not under the Law.
We are not Jews.
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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Over 50 times in the Old Testament it is stated that the Laws are eternal.
Christ testified to this and warned about changing anything in them.
Yet some in Christianity extracted ten of the 613 Laws of Moses and edified them.
The fact is, none of them pertain to Christians...we are not of that Covenant...we are not under the Law.
We are not Jews.

We are we are we are we are se voet....
 

stunnedbygrace

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@GodsGrace @"ByGrace" @stunnedbygrace


What Is Belief?

Belief or faith in Yeshua is more than a person believing a man named Yeshua once lived. Believing that Yeshua was merely an historical figure will not help you. You must accept and believe in Yeshua as your savior, this is the power of Faith. And as your savior He accomplished all of the above items. If you do not believe that Yeshua delivered you from sin, then you’re not saved. If you are a Christian and still think you are capable of sinning against God the Father, you might want to look for some animals to sacrifice because Christ will probably only be crucified once, (once for all sins.) (Rom. 6:10, Hebrews 10:12) If you do not believe that Yeshua established a New Covenant between God and Man then you are not offered the grace of the New Covenant. If you do not recognize Yeshua as the Son of God you are not saved. If you still hold on to the old relationships with God, as the Jews do looking to the Law as a moral guide, you have not accepted the provisions of the New Covenant and you are not saved.

Many believe that the phrase “New Testament” means New Text or New Book, when in fact the phrase “New Testament” is a misnomer. The Old and New Testaments refer to the Old and New Covenants. Some people understand this but they do not know why the Church labeled them Testaments and I am not going to get into it....

There is a reason why the Old Covenant is called the OLD Covenant. Because it is the portion of the Bible that tells of the time when God’s people “ONCE” lived under the Laws of the OLD Covenants….the Old Agreements, with a very wrathful God. Paul made a distinction between those that are under the Law and those who are not under the Law, but rather faith. (Romans 3:19-21 & 4:14 - 16, Galatians 4:21, 1st Cor. 9:20) The Old Covenants and the Old Covenant Laws was a testimony that their was something wrong. They prescribed overtly violent acts, hideous rituals, and the Laws that pertained to women were hateful at best. God promised his people that compliance to the Law would insure many Earthly rewards and His blessings, but some of the things it involved was unthinkable. I have said it before but the reader should read through the 613 Mosaic Laws and determine for yourself. Would you want to read these Law and rituals into Church?

Now the Apostle Paul like all of us made his mistakes, but as he made his way through the journey of salvation he learnt as he went. Towards the end of His ministry he learnt the advantages of females and angels. He also realized that salvation had many elements and aspects and he wrote it down,


· Faith

· Love

· Forgiveness

· Grace

· Justification

· Sanctification

· Adoption

· Glorification

· Reconciliation with God the Father

· A dynamic relationship with God’s begotten Son

· Eternal Life


So the Apostle Paul reasoned this out by logical reasoning and divine inspiration. So he said that under the terms of the Old Covenant no flesh could be Justified. (Acts 13:38-41, Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16-21, 3:11) Because the Law itself brought about the wrath of God. But for those that have entered into the New Covenant with God….where there is No Law, neither is there violation, (Romans 4:15) Christians are not under the Law but under grace. (Romans 10:4 Galatians 5:18) Because apart from the Law sin is dead. (Romans 7:8) As Christians we serve God in the newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter of the Law. (Romans 7:6) As Christians we cannot sin, (As defined by the Old Covenant.) because in order to sin, one must break the Mosaic Law (1st John 3:5-9) Because Christ, our savior was the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believes in Him. (Romans 10:4, Ephesians 2:15) We are Justified by Faith apart from the Law. (Romans 3:28, 5:1) The clock of Grace makes us perfect before God the Father.

The Apostle Paul referred to the Old Covenant and the Ten Commandments as a ministry of death and condemnation. Stating that the letter of the Law kills, but the spirit gives life, (2nd Corinthians 3:1-9) and said that Yeshua freed us from the curse of the Law. (Galatians 3:13) And said that the Law was only a shadow of the good things to come. (Hebrews 10:1) The Old Law was set aside because of its weakness and uselessness. For Yeshua is the mediator for us, in a better Covenant with God (Hebrews 7:18-22 & 8:1-13 & 10:9) In Ephesians 2:15&16, Paul had this to say; “….by abolishing in his flesh the ENMITY, which IS the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having put to DEATH ENMITY.

In Galatians Paul had a warning for those that seek to live under the Law or look to the Law as a moral guide. “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4) For those that look to the Laws for righteousness and thereby sin under the Law, Hebrews has this to say; “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgement, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES……IT IS A TERRIFYING THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD. (Hebrews 10:26-31) In Philippians, Paul called those people that still preached adherence to the Old Laws, dogs, evil workers and warned against false circumcision. (Phil. 3:2-14) In Titus, Paul warned against paying attention to those that preached Jewish myths and commandments of men. (Titus 1:13&14)

The Mosaic Law had its quirks and hard to explain, but Paul tries to explain it this way. (Romans 15:4 & Galatians 3:17-29) “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.”

Mosaic Laws, is made up of commandment, statues, ordinances. Before the implementation of the New Covenant, in the Gospels, Yeshua repeatedly either pointed out the deficiencies in the Laws or pointed out that their manmade traditions or interpretations nullified the intent of the Laws, or more correctly God’s intent. In John 8:17, Yeshua indirectly implies that the Mosaic Law was not His Law saying, Even in your law it has been written…” He could have said “the law, or our law, but He did not. This is further emphasized by the fact that nowhere in the Gospel does Yeshua ever refer to “Mosaic Law or “The Law” as His Law. He refers to His Laws as “My word” or “My Commandments” And in John verse 31&32 He indicates that to be considered one of His disciples, one most follow His word, and His word would set you free from the Law and sin; “If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” And verses 34-36, go on to further illustrate that the Jewish Covenant and Laws made them slaves to sin, but Yeshua’s Covenant would set His people free of sin and the Law. “Truly , truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave to sin. “And the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. “If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. And verse 24 had already indicated that the Jews had no hope of salvation unless they accepted Yeshua and His Laws. “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.” There is only one way to sin and that is to break one of the Mosaic Laws. As long as the Jews looked to the Law for righteousness they could and did sin. And as long as they did not accept Christ as the Messiah, they had no hope of forgiveness of their sins or salvation. They or anyone else that teaches adherence to any of the Mosaic Laws or lifts the Mosaic Laws above Christ’s Laws will die in their sins, severed from the saving grace of Yeshua the Messiah!

After Christ’s death and after the implementation of the New Covenant, the Apostles referenced these Laws as obsolete tutors and commandments of men. In most instances that the Ten Commandments were referenced by the Apostles it was done to point out their inferiority to Christ’s teachings, or the burden that was lifted by Christ’s sacrifice, or that Christ’s Laws were so superior to the Old Laws that obeying Christ’s Laws more than fulfill the intent of the Old Laws.


Wow, I didn't get very far in reading before I had a big, big problem. The whole mindset of if you don't believe this, this, this, this and that, you're not saved. And the whole not in any way realistic assertion that if you think you can sin after you meet God, you better go find a sacrifice.

I couldn't read any further. And now, according to the script, you are supposed to attack me, right?
 
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Grailhunter

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Wow, I didn't get very far in reading before I had a big, big problem. The whole mindset of if you don't believe this, this, this, this and that, you're not saved. And the whole not in any way realistic assertion that if you think you can sin after you meet God, you better go find a sacrifice.

I couldn't read any further.

Sorry
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Well...you didn't attack me. That's encouraging! :)

Is it necessary that I must believe or understand everything in that article to meet God and to be given His Spirit?

I'm pretty sure you're going to say no. :)
 

Grailhunter

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Well...you didn't attack me. That's encouraging! :)

Is it necessary that I must believe or understand everything in that article to meet God and to be given His Spirit?

I'm pretty sure you're going to say no. :)

Lady Stunnedbygrace
I will never argue with you....like pie to much.
This all came from my book...I think about 1800 pages.
Very few Christian books have 1200 scriptural references, referencing over 4000 verses.
If you have a problem with a scripture or its interpretation, I will discuss it with you, with a smile on my face.
 

GodsGrace

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I heard something recently. I can't really prove it from scripture. I definitely can't prove it from experience (yet), but deep down I know it is right. In our fellowships, we need to love and not murder each other over doctrine. If we begin to do this, and we love each other rather than just keep blowing each other up, and if we keep our fellowships small, 5 or 6 people, and each of those people learn true fellowship and laying down their lives of pride for each other, we will have the right conditions for the fire to come down. The person I heard it from has some experience and I trust Him. He also says, we can't make the fire come down or decide when it will, but we will be ready for when it does.
I agree with you SBG.
Look where I live.
My friends are Catholic. (some are born again)
When we're together we don't discuss doctrine (sometimes we do).
But when we come onto these sites and read certain things, I can't help but respond. If you notice, it's only about 3 or 4 topics and they have to do with salvation (soteriology).

The fire also descended on the Disciples and Apostles at the right time.
Your friend sounds well-informed.
 
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Grailhunter

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I agree with you SBG.
Look where I live.
My friends are Catholic. (some are born again)
When we're together we don't discuss doctrine (sometimes we do).
But when we come onto these sites and read certain things, I can't help but respond. If you notice, it's only about 3 or 4 topics and they have to do with salvation (soteriology).

The fire also descended on the Disciples and Apostles at the right time.
Your friend sounds well-informed.

I was born Catholic and received the sacraments. I was also baptized in a Protestant church. Then again the group I am with
have strong ties to the Catholic church...historically. I go to a lot of different churches, many denominations.
 
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GodsGrace

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I hate to hear that too, that its not necessary to obey God. I also hate to hear someone say the laws of God are done away with. Of course, some will read what I just wrote and will give hearty agreement, because they don't understand what I mean when I say these things. And then others will read what I wrote and disagree, also not understanding what I mean when I say them!

How perfectly odd is THAT??
I understand.
Here's the glitch, as I've perceived it on these forums.

The laws are not done away with. Jesus said so.
But for us who love Him,,,we follow our love, not the laws.
The is grace and not The Law.

Also, some go WAY BACK and think the law means the Law of Moses...all 613 of them. That's pretty scary.

But then you have those that proclaim that it is not necessasry to obey and a person will STILL be saved.

Now, I've learned from two different churches and read a lot myself, and I know this is not biblical. And herein lies the problem that I respond to when the person is obviously missing some Christian behavior that Jesus asked for in Mathew 5.
I'm not saying they're not saved --- I'm saying they don't act Christianly, and they SHOULD because people see the outside and not the inside and it seems to give Christianity a bad image.
 

Grailhunter

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I understand.
Here's the glitch, as I've perceived it on these forums.

The laws are not done away with. Jesus said so.
But for us who love Him,,,we follow our love, not the laws.
The is grace and not The Law.

Also, some go WAY BACK and think the law means the Law of Moses...all 613 of them. That's pretty scary.

But then you have those that proclaim that it is not necessasry to obey and a person will STILL be saved.

Now, I've learned from two different churches and read a lot myself, and I know this is not biblical. And herein lies the problem that I respond to when the person is obviously missing some Christian behavior that Jesus asked for in Mathew 5.
I'm not saying they're not saved --- I'm saying they don't act Christianly, and they SHOULD because people see the outside and not the inside and it seems to give Christianity a bad image.

You ladies have different beliefs...and I always say if you want to know the heart of Christianity, listen to what the women have to say.
As far as what I sent you...just let me know which of the scriptures I referenced to you that you have a problem with.
I believe that Christianity is a living religion...so there is more information outside the Holy Bible.
Confining the religion to the covers of the Holy Bible makes it stagnated.
 
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GodsGrace

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@Grailhunter

Hi GH....
Too much to read here.
Going to print the above and read it in a while.

In the meantime, I'd like you to know that I'm familiar
with the covenants and will be reading the above with
interest.

If often ask persons that tell me we are no longer required
to follow God's commandments the difference between the Old Covenant
(Mosaic) and the New Covenant if even the NC has commandments.
I never get an answer.
When I reply I'll mention that, IF you already haven't.

Later.
 

GodsGrace

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You ladies have different beliefs...and I always say if you want to know the heart of Christianity, listen to what the women have to say.
As far as what I sent you...just let me know which of the scriptures I referenced to you that you have a problem with.
I believe that Christianity is a living religion...so there is more information outside the Holy Bible.
Confining the religion to the covers of the Holy Bible makes it stagnated.
Oh. I agree.
That's why I read from different theologies and learn from those that know more than I do. Trying to understand the covenants from the bible alone is pretty much impossible...Ditto for the Trìinity,,,Ditto for Justification and Sanctification...Ditto for baptism....there's just too much to know that took theologians to figure out with much study.
 

Grailhunter

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@Grailhunter

Hi GH....
Too much to read here.
Going to print the above and read it in a while.

In the meantime, I'd like you to know that I'm familiar
with the covenants and will be reading the above with
interest.

If often ask persons that tell me we are no longer required
to follow God's commandments the difference between the Old Covenant
(Mosaic) and the New Covenant if even the NC has commandments.
I never get an answer.
When I reply I'll mention that, IF you already haven't.

Later.


Told you I would send you some little parts of the book.
This is a lot.
Sorry. There were a bunch of topics that were all over the place yesterday.
Not trying to convert you....mostly food for thought.
From there....You do what you will.
If you look at the Christian books that point to a particular denomination. They
are not going to have this many scriptural references. If the Holy Bible agree
with what you believe 1200 times in contest with over 4000 other scriptures, I am
probably not far off.
 
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Grailhunter

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Oh. I agree.
That's why I read from different theologies and learn from those that know more than I do. Trying to understand the covenants from the bible alone is pretty much impossible...Ditto for the Trìinity,,,Ditto for Justification and Sanctification...Ditto for baptism....there's just too much to know that took theologians to figure out with much study.

I get it.
 
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GodsGrace

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You ladies have different beliefs...and I always say if you want to know the heart of Christianity, listen to what the women have to say.
As far as what I sent you...just let me know which of the scriptures I referenced to you that you have a problem with.
I believe that Christianity is a living religion...so there is more information outside the Holy Bible.
Confining the religion to the covers of the Holy Bible makes it stagnated.
I feel like @stunnedbygrace and I are very alike.

I've also noticed that it's not easy to speak about spiritual things....
Sometimes persons are saying the same thing using different words.

Like you say we cannot sin after being saved because we can't sacrifice Jesus again.
This goes to Hebrews 6 and 10 (I think).
Some will think you mean ONE SIN...
I believe you mean a life of sin.
There is a difference but it's not easy to explain.
 

GodsGrace

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Told you I would send you some little parts of the book.
This is a lot.
Sorry. There were a bunch of topics that were all over the place yesterday.
Not trying to convert you....mostly food for thought.
From there....You do what you will.
If you look at the Christian books that point to a particular denomination. They
are not going to have this many scriptural references. If the Holy Bible agree
with what you believe 1200 times in contest with over 4000 other scriptures, I am
probably not far off.
I'm wondering what the denomination is....
 

Episkopos

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According to Peter the Jews should repent and be sorry for crucifying Jesus. Paul, on the other hand says we should glory in Jesus' work on the cross. That is a very big difference.

It is easy to get things exactly backwards. And I must say that you are very capable in that regard. :) You are being consistent.

You said we should glory in Christ's work on the cross as per Paul?

Actually the work of Jesus on the cross is to our shame...not glory. And Paul was glorying in the power of the cross...to his own loss...on himself....not on Jesus or any other.

It's funny how a wrong understanding makes reading skills go out the window.

Here's what Paul actually said...

Gal. 6:14 But as for me, may I never boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Was Paul glorying in the death of Jesus? No, only the devil would glory in that. Paul, as any follower of Jesus, glories that he HIMSELF partakes of the the cross of Jesus Christ. (Not the cross FOR Jesus Christ).


So then he takes on Christ's sufferings and death onto himself. What HR would call works.

And why would Paul desire to see this death? So that the life also of Christ might be upon Him. That He might enter into the grace of Christ Jesus in order to walk as He walked.
 
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