Sola Scriptura - does this foundation make you a heretic

[GodsGrace]

Catholics agree with Protestants that Scripture is a "standard of truth" — even the preeminent one — but not in a sense that rules out the binding authority of authentic apostolic Tradition and the Church. The Bible doesn't teach that. Catholics agree that Scripture is materially sufficient. In other words, on this view, every true doctrine can be found in the Bible, if only implicitly and indirectly by deduction. But no biblical passage teaches that Scripture is the formal authority or rule of faith in isolation from the Church and Tradition. Sola scriptura can't even be deduced from implicit passages.

Ephesians 4 Refutes the Protestant "Proof Text"

"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
This passage doesn't teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and the Church. Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn't there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13-14, 2:2, 3:14). And to use an analogy, let's examine a similar passage:

"And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ" (Eph. 4:11-15).

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.

Years ago I used to ask myself if Jesus came to show us a way of life, or to set up a church.

My conclusion is that without a church, Christianity could not exist.
It's truly a miracle that the Jewish people and country has been able to exist. I imagine any other people, American Indians, Italians, Indians --- take them out of their land and culture for 3 or 4 generations and the original population will be completely changed and forgotten.

Second, one has to accept that a church is necessary to pass on the teachings of Jesus. He commanded that the Apostles go and teach all nations --- how does one do that without an organized group?

One has to belong to the Church, but one also needs a church.

It seems to me that man is incapable even of doing God's work.
The CC became tainted by man.
The Protestant church has become tainted by man.
Some circles do ask themselves if perhaps Jesus' plan has failed.
Even the Holy Spirit cannot remove enough of the sin nature in us to do what we're supposed to do...keep the church holy.

I know that the CC teaches that although man is sinful, the church itself remains holy. As if the church were a "being" and entity unto itself.
I don't understand this very well.

I do see that except for the shism in 1,000 the CC has managed to remain united whereas the Protestant church cannot do this.
So, I don't know, is the Holy Spirit working in the Protestant church?
I do ask myself every now and then.

(I used to be Catholic and am now Protestant by doctrine)

P.S. We need both a church AND to learn Jesus' way of life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Which is not the same as upholding the "10", for that is to uphold "9", and do according to "man" with regard to one. So while it "seems" honorable, is it really honorable to attempt to change the set times and laws that YHVH has established?

How did that work out for Jeroboam?

1Ki 12:32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he went up unto the altar; so did he in Beth-el, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Beth-el the priests of the high places that he had made. 33 And he went up unto the altar which he had made in Beth-el on the fifteenth day in the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart: and he ordained a feast for the children of Israel, and went up unto the altar, to burn incense.

It didn't work out too well for him.
I believe he ruined his Kingdom, I don't remember the details well.
He didn't follow God's laws. He did become the King as prophesied.

But look at the CC. It's still here and functioning.
Maybe having a Pope to lead isn't such a bad idea.
Born again Catholics still follow Jesus just like we do,
but each one of them cannot have his very own interpretation
of scripture. I happen to agree with our version of interpretation for some, but we're not all agreed on any of them!
This bothers me.

 

[KBCid]

They lost. Had this conversation before.
God is not coming down here to fight our battles.
He didn't in the ot either. Islam had to be stopped. As it does today...

I'm sorry GG but God has both fought along side and instead the battles for their people as it was written;
Deut 20:1When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 2And it shall be, when ye are come nigh unto the battle, that the priest shall approach and speak unto the people, 3And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them; 4For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.


2 Chron 20:14 Then upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, a Levite of the sons of Asaph, came the Spirit of the Lord in the midst of the congregation;
15 And he said, Hearken ye, all Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem, and thou king Jehoshaphat, Thus saith the Lord unto you, Be not afraid nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude; for the battle is not yours, but God's. 16 To morrow go ye down against them: behold, they come up by the cliff of Ziz; and ye shall find them at the end of the brook, before the wilderness of Jeruel. 17 Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the Lord with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the Lord will be with you. 18 And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the Lord, worshipping the Lord.
22 And when they began to sing and to praise, the Lord set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.
24 And when Judah came toward the watch tower in the wilderness, they looked unto the multitude, and, behold, they were dead bodies fallen to the earth, and none escaped.

In Exodus 14:14 Moses tells the children of Israel, “The LORD will fight for you; you need only to be still.” At that moment, they were standing at the edge of the Red Sea, hemmed in by the sea before them and the Egyptian army behind. The Israelites are in a seemingly impossible situation, but it was a situation brought on by the Lord Himself. It was God who had hardened Pharaoh’s heart to pursue the fleeing slaves (Exodus 14:4, 8). Why would God do such a thing? The Bible gives some of the reasons: because God wanted to make it crystal clear to Egypt that He is LORD so that He got the glory over Pharaoh (Exodus 14:4). And because God wanted to teach Israel that He is their Deliverer (Exodus 6:6) and their Salvation (Exodus 14:13). They were incapable of escaping the situation on their own—they needed only to wait for God to move on their behalf (cf. Psalm 27:14). The battle that appeared to be between the Egyptians and the Israelites was in reality between the Egyptians and the Lord (Exodus 14:4). What does it mean that God will fight our battles (Exodus 14:14; Deuteronomy 1:30)?

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry GG but God has both fought along side and instead the battles for their people as it was written;
Deut 20:1When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 2And it shall be, when ye are come nigh unto the battle, that the priest shall approach and speak unto the people, 3And shall say unto them, Hear, O Israel, ye approach this day unto battle against your enemies: let not your hearts faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them; 4For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.


2 Chron 20:14 Then upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, a Levite of the sons of Asaph, came the Spirit of the Lord in the midst of the congregation;
15 And he said, Hearken ye, all Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem, and thou king Jehoshaphat, Thus saith the Lord unto you, Be not afraid nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude; for the battle is not yours, but God's. 16 To morrow go ye down against them: behold, they come up by the cliff of Ziz; and ye shall find them at the end of the brook, before the wilderness of Jeruel. 17 Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the Lord with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the Lord will be with you. 18 And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the Lord, worshipping the Lord.
22 And when they began to sing and to praise, the Lord set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.
24 And when Judah came toward the watch tower in the wilderness, they looked unto the multitude, and, behold, they were dead bodies fallen to the earth, and none escaped.

In Exodus 14:14 Moses tells the children of Israel, “The LORD will fight for you; you need only to be still.” At that moment, they were standing at the edge of the Red Sea, hemmed in by the sea before them and the Egyptian army behind. The Israelites are in a seemingly impossible situation, but it was a situation brought on by the Lord Himself. It was God who had hardened Pharaoh’s heart to pursue the fleeing slaves (Exodus 14:4, 8). Why would God do such a thing? The Bible gives some of the reasons: because God wanted to make it crystal clear to Egypt that He is LORD so that He got the glory over Pharaoh (Exodus 14:4). And because God wanted to teach Israel that He is their Deliverer (Exodus 6:6) and their Salvation (Exodus 14:13). They were incapable of escaping the situation on their own—they needed only to wait for God to move on their behalf (cf. Psalm 27:14). The battle that appeared to be between the Egyptians and the Israelites was in reality between the Egyptians and the Lord (Exodus 14:4). What does it mean that God will fight our battles (Exodus 14:14; Deuteronomy 1:30)?

Nice.
So why isn't God stopping Isis?
Why didn't He take care of the Muslims back in 1,000?
We wouldn't have needed the crusades.
I'd God standing at our side or actually doing the fighting for us?
Is the paraclete standing by our side, or actually not sinning for us?

 

[KBCid]

None of this has anything to do with the Just War Doctrine. Like I said, the Protestant Inquisition was worse.

Do you seek to justify the evil of your cult by asserting that they were less evil than some other cult?
Lol "just war doctrine"....
Maybe I should get out the 20 or so books the papacy approved torture methods and devices used to maim and kill those who did not follow their rules. Or maybe just a few online references will do.
10 Torture devices used by the Catholic Church in the Inquisition
http://thefinalword.co.za/Catholisism/Roman_Catholic_Inquisition.pdf

 

[KBCid]

None of this has anything to do with the Just War Doctrine. Like I said, The protestant inquisition was worse.

and like I said does the evil that your cult has done make it less evil because some other cult was worse?
Is it the Christian way to just do a little less evil than those around you?
Does God approve of torture for those who do not follow church demands?
Is it ok to whip the children while they watch their parents get burned to ashes... is this God approved?
Is it ok to dislocate the joints of peoples appendages if they don't agree with church doctrine?
I could go on for months without ceasing on this subject because I spent the time to read the history of religions and what they believed they were doing in the name of God so, you keep on trying to justify the evils of your cult as being less evil than some other cult and I will keep bringing more atrocities to the table.

LOL "The protestant inquisition was worse" oh my I am so justified because someone else was worse... This makes us more Christ like...

 

[KBCid]

Nice.
So why isn't God stopping Isis? Why didn't He take care of the Muslims back in 1,000?
We wouldn't have needed the crusades.I'd God standing at our side or actually doing the fighting for us?
Is the paraclete standing by our side, or actually not sinning for us?

I hear the intent of your heart here.
The simple answer is that God protects those people who are following faithfully so if a people are destroyed or harmed by others then they were not God's people.
In the OT we can read story after story of God protecting those who actually love them or... not protecting those who have fallen away. Many people among the Israelites through their history have realized that this is how God works. There have been times where the rulers have begged the people to change their ways so that God would protect them and it worked.

Jonah 3:1 And the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the second time, saying, 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. 3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days’ journey. 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

The paraclete stands within the body by our side to teach and help us. It will not keep us from doing what we want to do.

Matt 26:52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

 

[KBCid]

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time.

Indeed. 1260

 

[Helen]

My conclusion is that without a church, Christianity could not exist.

Sooo life is in the church...not in Christ?
If you were stuck alone somewhere, would 'christianity'...whatever that is...not exist.?
Where would it have gone?

 

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
But look at the CC. It's still here and functioning.
Maybe having a Pope to lead isn't such a bad idea.
Born again Catholics still follow Jesus just like we do,
but each one of them cannot have his very own interpretation
of scripture. I happen to agree with our version of interpretation for some, but we're not all agreed on any of them!
This bothers me.

Rightly is should bother you. But don't let it bother you too much, for it was / is foreknown that such would be the case.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. 14 For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.

 

[KBCid]

Rightly is should bother you. But don't let it bother you too much, for it was / is foreknown that such would be the case.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. 14 For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.

Indeed if the many were right then there would be a wide gate.

 

[Richard_oti]

Indeed if the many were right then there would be a wide gate.

Devarim 4:29 But from thence ye shall seek YHVH 'Eloheyka, and thou shalt find him, when thou searchest after him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't understand this very well.

don't worry, no one else does either, it is a vain attempt at self-justification by the self-appointed leaders of "the Church."

 

[epostle1]

Years ago I used to ask myself if Jesus came to show us a way of life, or to set up a church.

My conclusion is that without a church, Christianity could not exist.
It's truly a miracle that the Jewish people and country has been able to exist. I imagine any other people, American Indians, Italians, Indians --- take them out of their land and culture for 3 or 4 generations and the original population will be completely changed and forgotten.

Second, one has to accept that a church is necessary to pass on the teachings of Jesus. He commanded that the Apostles go and teach all nations --- how does one do that without an organized group?

One has to belong to the Church, but one also needs a church.

It seems to me that man is incapable even of doing God's work.
The CC became tainted by man.
The Protestant church has become tainted by man.
Some circles do ask themselves if perhaps Jesus' plan has failed.
Even the Holy Spirit cannot remove enough of the sin nature in us to do what we're supposed to do...keep the church holy.
I know that the CC teaches that although man is sinful, the church itself remains holy. As if the church were a "being" and entity unto itself.
I don't understand this very well.

A mystery is something we can know something about (like the Trinity) but we can't know everything about it. The Church gets her holiness from Christ, not from sinful members.

I do see that except for the shism in 1,000 the CC has managed to remain united whereas the Protestant church cannot do this.
So, I don't know, is the Holy Spirit working in the Protestant church?
I do ask myself every now and then.

I think the Holy Spirit works in all Christian churches, as the catechism explains (CCC 817-820). We need to forget our painful past, and work together toward healing a broken world. This can be seen in many joint projects, like soup kitchens supported by numerous denominations.

It didn't work out too well for him.
I believe he ruined his Kingdom, I don't remember the details well.
He didn't follow God's laws. He did become the King as prophesied.

But look at the CC. It's still here and functioning.
Maybe having a Pope to lead isn't such a bad idea.
Born again Catholics still follow Jesus just like we do,
but each one of them cannot have his very own interpretation
of scripture. I happen to agree with our version of interpretation for some, but we're not all agreed on any of them!
This bothers me.

It should. Truth is objective, not subjective, not relative, and not individualistic.
Truth is not of our own making. Even Christ proclaimed that the truth He illuminated did not spring from Him alone. “My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me” (John 17:6)
Christ was emphatic in his denunciation of the Pharisees who claimed to know something of the truth but behaved with a pretentious snobbery. Truth is not he cause of Pharisaism, vanity is.
Truth is not subjective. It represents the objective order of things. The person who comes to know something of the truth, then should experience humility, not vanity, for he discovers something that is not his.

Nice.
So why isn't God stopping Isis?
Why didn't He take care of the Muslims back in 1,000?
We wouldn't have needed the crusades.
I'd God standing at our side or actually doing the fighting for us?
Is the paraclete standing by our side, or actually not sinning for us?

Why doesn't God empty all the hospitals and feed all the hungry children?

Sooo life is in the church...not in Christ?
If you were stuck alone somewhere, would 'christianity'...whatever that is...not exist.?
Where would it have gone?

The Church is Jesus on earth.

Conversion of Saul:
Acts 9:4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?’ 5 He asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ The reply came, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 But get up and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.’

How can Saul be persecuting Jesus if He is only in heaven?
Who told Saul what to do when he entered the city? Did Jesus appear a second time and tell him what to do? Or was he told what to do by Ananias, a representative of the Church, who was given a vision?

The Church is Jesus on earth, as Jesus illustrates by Saul's persecution of the Church in Damascus, which plainly shows to be Jesus on earth.

 

[bbyrd009]

But look at the CC. It's still here and functioning.

we are told about a head with a mortal wound that miraculously revives too, yes.

 

[epostle1]

we are told about a head with a mortal would that miraculously revives too, yes.

I know the hate you are implying. First, you give no year the "mortal wound" occurred. Then, you give no indication of what or when this revived wound took place. We have God's promises, indicated in many places in scripture, that the Church could never fall away or go astray. God is not a liar. Revelation does not mean what you want it to mean.
Don't take the word of 2-bit rebelation monkeys with an agenda.

 

[bbyrd009]

I know the hate you are implying. First, you give no year the "mortal wound" occurred. Then, you give no indication of what or when this revived wound took place.

ah, not even sure that should be attributed to the RCC tbh; it is a perspective, no doubt played out many times.

We have God's promises, indicated in many places in scripture, that the Church could never fall away or go astray. God is not a liar.

our only difference here is in our definitions of "Church," i think.

Revelation does not mean what you want it to mean.
Don't take the word of 2-bit rebelation monkeys with an agenda.

good advice, imo

 

[KBCid]

Devarim 4:29 But from thence ye shall seek YHVH 'Eloheyka, and thou shalt find him, when thou searchest after him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

D'varim... the words...
My soul cries for all the innocents whose lives were taken by the cults after the last of the apostles died.

 

[KBCid]

don't worry, no one else does either, it is a vain attempt at self-justification by the self-appointed leaders of "the Church."

Lol... I can indeed count on you to see many things.
Maybe if we ask for an "indulgence" from them we could go out and kill some of them heretics and still be upstanding Christians too.....according to man...lol

 

[KBCid]

I think the Holy Spirit works in all Christian churches, as the catechism explains (CCC 817-820). We need to forget our painful past, and work together toward healing a broken world. This can be seen in many joint projects, like soup kitchens supported by numerous denominations.

LOL

How much wealth is held by the CC? oh never mind I can just look it up;

Time magazine
Roman Catholics: The Vatican's Wealth
Bankers' best guesses about the Vatican's wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion....
Roman Catholics: The Vatican's Wealth

You suppose that some soup kitchens are hitting the mark huh?

Matt 9:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.