Solving the mistery of the trinity.

[Disciple]

@OP; The mystery is their unity they are bonded together through unity and are made 'one'.

 

[dfj]

Ignatius sowed the seeds of what was to become the Eastern, (Greek), and Western, (Latin), Catholic organizations, (cathlicos means universal church). Both the Greek and Latin churches grew from there.

In John 1, John does not introduce Jesus until verse 14. Up until then he is explaining God and His intent to incarnate His Word, (Logos), in the flesh as His only begotten Son, Redeemer, Propitiation/Savior and LORD.

 

[Disciple]

In John chapter one it is showing the depth of the unity that they have, its showing how deep their bondage is, they are ONE together that is how deep.. When some people say 'Jesus is Almighty God' its okay, but the truth is Jesus is in the Father and the Father in the Son, and holy Spirit is in them too, this bondage thus making them 'ONE' together. Jesus is God Almightys Son.

 

[Anastacia]

Ignatius sowed the seeds of what was to become the Eastern, (Greek), and Western, (Latin), Catholic organizations, (cathlicos means universal church). Both the Greek and Latin churches grew from there.

In John 1, John does not introduce Jesus until verse 14. Up until then he is explaining God and His intent to incarnate His Word, (Logos), in the flesh as His only begotten Son, Redeemer, Propitiation/Savior and LORD.

But Jesus IS the Word of God.

And as for what you say here about Ignatius....Greek and Latin Catholics do not have all the same beliefs. The Catholic church is apostate.....Eastern and Western. Are you Catholic Dave?

 

[jacobtaylor]

Ignatius sowed the seeds of what was to become the Eastern, (Greek), and Western, (Latin), Catholic organizations, (cathlicos means universal church). Both the Greek and Latin churches grew from there.

In John 1, John does not introduce Jesus until verse 14. Up until then he is explaining God and His intent to incarnate His Word, (Logos), in the flesh as His only begotten Son, Redeemer, Propitiation/Savior and LORD.

Your still avoiding the question in Gen. 18 Your still trying to limit NT Jesus to being the only and first time God reveled himself to men in the likeness of men. Gen 1:26-27
I say the LORD in Gen 18 is also Jesus.You won't even comment about it.

Genesis 18

The Son of Promise
[sup]1[/sup] Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre,[sup][a][/sup] as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. [sup]2[/sup] So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, [sup]3[/sup] and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. [sup]4[/sup] Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. [sup]5[/sup] And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant.”
They said, “Do as you have said.”
[sup]6[/sup] So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes.” [sup]7[/sup] And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it. [sup]8[/sup] So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.
[sup]9[/sup] Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?”
So he said, “Here, in the tent.”
[sup]10[/sup] And He said, “I will certainly return to you according to the time of life, and behold, Sarah your wife shall have a son.”
(Sarah was listening in the tent door which was behind him.) [sup]11[/sup] Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; and Sarah had passed the age of childbearing.[sup][b][/sup] [sup]12[/sup] Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”
[sup]13[/sup] And the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?’ [sup]14[/sup] Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.”
[sup]15[/sup] But Sarah denied it, saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid.
And He said, “No, but you did laugh!”
Abraham Intercedes for Sodom

[sup]16[/sup] Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. [sup]17[/sup] And the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, [sup]18[/sup] since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? [sup]19[/sup] For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” [sup]20[/sup] And the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, [sup]21[/sup] I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

 

[dfj]

I hate to sound like a broken record but will you now address my question I have asked you repeatedly in your post "whats in a word"
Who is the LORD that ate with Abraham in Gen 18. As you said above God the Father is spirit. Isn't this also the LOGOs in the OT?

No.

Gen 18:1-2; "The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby.

YHWH in Hebrew, Theos in Greek, Not Logos. God appears in a number of places as a theophany or his Words, ( "dabar" / "rhema"), are carried by angelic messengers.


Gen 15:1
15:1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision:

In this verse the Hebrew term is "dabar" which in the Greek OT is "rhema" not logos.

I say the LORD in Gen 18 is also Jesus.You won't even comment about it.

Patience Jacob

 

[Anastacia]

No.

Gen 18:1-2; "The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby.

YHWH in Hebrew, Theos in Greek, Not Logos. God appears in a number of places as a theophany or his Words, ( "dabar" / "rhema"), are carried by angelic messengers.


Gen 15:1
15:1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision:

In this verse the Hebrew term is "dabar" which in the Greek OT is "rhema" not logos.


Patience Jacob

Dave, Jesus was with God from the beginning. Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son. Jesus is the visible God made visible.


Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

 

[dfj]

But Jesus IS the Word of God.

Yes He is. But John is not bringing Him into perspective until verse 14 so as not to confuse Jesus with The Father. John is very careful to keep God as The Father and Jesus Christ as His Son, in whom The Father has placed His Logos, (WORD).

No, I am not a Catholic.

 

[Anastacia]

Yes He is. But John is not bringing Him into perspective until verse 14 so as not to confuse Jesus with The Father. John is very careful to keep God as The Father and Jesus Christ as His Son, in whom The Father has placed His Logos, (WORD).

No, I am not a Catholic.

Please see my post in #147, in case you missed it.


Dave, Jesus was with God from the beginning. Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son. Jesus is the visible God made visible.


Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

 

[dfj]

Dave, Jesus was with God from the beginning. Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son. Jesus is the visible God made visible.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

What has been confused here is the personal name of God, the nature of God and the origin and nature of Jesus Christ.

Something the Oneness group has thoroughly missed.

 

[Anastacia]

What has been confused here is the personal name of God, the nature of God and the origin and nature of Jesus Christ.

Something the Oneness group has thoroughly missed.

I'm not Oneness Pentecostal.

Again: Dave, Jesus was with God from the beginning. Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son. Jesus is the visible God made visible.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

 

[jacobtaylor]

No.

Gen 18:1-2; "The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby.

YHWH in Hebrew, Theos in Greek, Not Logos. God appears in a number of places as a theophany or his Words, ( "dabar" / "rhema"), are carried by angelic messengers.


Gen 15:1
15:1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision:

In this verse the Hebrew term is "dabar" which in the Greek OT is "rhema" not logos.


Patience Jacob

Selective reasoning that supports your theology.

Lets finish reading the verse.
[sup]1[/sup] Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre,[sup][a][/sup] as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. [sup]2[/sup] So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, [sup]3[/sup] and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.

Then tell me why does Abraham run out and bow to the ground and call Him O Lord? We can see in other biblical accounts that If this was an Angel the Angel would not allow Abraham to bow down. By bowing and saying O Lord it pretty plain this is not an Angel. Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God."

O Lord lower case Gen 18:3
136 'Adonay ad-o-noy' am emphatic form of 113; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only):--(my) Lord.
113 113 'adown aw-done' or (shortened) adon {aw-done'}; from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. controller (human or divine):-- lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with "Adoni-".

 

[dfj]

I'm not Oneness Pentecostal.

Again: Dave, Jesus was with God from the beginning. Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son. Jesus is the visible God made visible.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Care to explain yourself Jacob?

You said that "Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son".

Nothing in any Scripture I know of states or implies anything of the kind.

The Plan of Salvation was in the Mind of God prior to creation. That included God's, (The Father's), plan to beget His Son and place His, (The Father's), Logos, (Word), within Jesus upon His, (Jesus'), incarnation, (John 1:14).

 

[jacobtaylor]

Care to explain yourself Jacob?

You said that "Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son".

Nothing in any Scripture I know of states or implies anything of the kind.

The Plan of Salvation was in the Mind of God prior to creation. That included God's, (The Father's), plan to beget His Son and place His, (The Father's), Logos, (Word), within Jesus upon His, (Jesus'), incarnation, (John 1:14).

Open your eyes Dr Jones I have shown you in Gem 18 above and below here. Failing or ignoring the full context of the passages doesn't make it go away. Anastacia quoted 1 Cor 1:15 as well.

he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, [sup]3[/sup] and said, “My Lord,

Your simply practicing selective reading again. Its not so hard to find scripture that says other wise. I've shown you both in the OT and the NT. Just as Pauls says in Col. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

You said that "Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son".
Nothing in any Scripture I know of states or implies anything of the kind.

[sup]13[/sup] He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, [sup]14[/sup] in whom we have redemption through His blood,[sup][c][/sup] the forgiveness of sins.
[sup]15[/sup] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [sup]16[/sup] For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. [sup]17[/sup] And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. [sup]18[/sup] And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

 

[dfj]

Selective reasoning that supports your theology.

It would be good if the true significance of a Theophany was thoroughly realized. A manifestation of God, carrying His authority.

You would bow down as well just like Daniel did.

Or perhaps you believe that Jesus needed Michael's help against the Prince of Persia?


Dan 10:7-11: I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; the men with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground. A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. He said, "Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you." And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling. Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael , one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come." While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I am helpless. How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe." Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. "Do not be afraid, O man highly esteemed," he said. "Peace! Be strong now; be strong." When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, "Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength." So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. No one supports me against them except Michael , your prince.

 

[Anastacia]

Care to explain yourself Jacob?

You said that "Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son".

Nothing in any Scripture I know of states or implies anything of the kind.

The Plan of Salvation was in the Mind of God prior to creation. That included God's, (The Father's), plan to beget His Son and place His, (The Father's), Logos, (Word), within Jesus upon His, (Jesus'), incarnation, (John 1:14).

Dave, you called me Jacob.

The plan of salvation was made prior to creation.

You said nothing in any scripture you know of states or implies that Jesus was alive with God in heaven before Jesus came to earth.

Here are scriptures for you to consider carefully:

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

That one scripture should be enough for you, but here is more:

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Psalm 110:1 Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

 

[dfj]

[sup]15[/sup] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [sup]16[/sup] For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. [sup]17[/sup] And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. [sup]18[/sup] And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

I wish more people understood literary device?

"The image eikoon (NT:1504). In predicate and no article. On eikoon (NT:1504), see 2 Cor 4:4; 3:18; Rom 8:29; Col 3:10. Jesus is the very stamp of God the Father as he was before the Incarnation (John 17:5) and is now (Phil 2:5-11; Heb 1:3).

Of the invisible God tou (NT:3588) Theou (NT:2316) tou (NT:3588) aoratou (NT:517). But the one who sees Jesus has seen God (John 14:9). See this verbal adjective a (NT:1), the alpha privative ("not"), and horaoo (NT:3708) in Rom 1:20.

The first born proototokos (NT:4416). Predicate adjective again and anarthrous. This passage is parallel to the Logos (NT:3056) passage in John 1:1-18 and to Heb 1:1-4 as well as Phil 2:5-11 in which these three writers (John, author of Hebrews, Paul) give the high conception of the Person of Christ (both Son of God and Son of Man) found also in the Synoptic Gospels and even in Q (the Father, the Son). This word (the Septuagint and the New Testament) can no longer be considered purely "Biblical" (Thayer), since it is found in inscriptions (Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 91) and in the papyri (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.). See it already in Luke 2:7 and Codex Sinaiticus ('Aleph) for Matt 1:25; Rom 8:29. The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like "all creation" pasees (NT:3956) ktiseoos (NT:2937), by metonomy the act regarded as result)]. It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prootos (NT:4413) that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Col 1:18; Rom 8:29; Heb 1:6; 12:23; Rev 1:5. Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before "all creation" (angels and men). Like eikoon (NT:1504) we find proototokos (NT:4416) in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logos teaching (Philo) as well as in the Septuagint. Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikoon (NT:1504) (Image) and to the universe as proototokos (NT:4416) (First-born)."

(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997 by Biblesoft & Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press)

 

[Anastacia]

I wish more people understood literary device?

"The image eikoon (NT:1504). In predicate and no article. On eikoon (NT:1504), see 2 Cor 4:4; 3:18; Rom 8:29; Col 3:10. Jesus is the very stamp of God the Father as he was before the Incarnation (John 17:5) and is now (Phil 2:5-11; Heb 1:3).

Of the invisible God tou (NT:3588) Theou (NT:2316) tou (NT:3588) aoratou (NT:517). But the one who sees Jesus has seen God (John 14:9). See this verbal adjective a (NT:1), the alpha privative ("not"), and horaoo (NT:3708) in Rom 1:20.

The first born proototokos (NT:4416). Predicate adjective again and anarthrous. This passage is parallel to the Logos (NT:3056) passage in John 1:1-18 and to Heb 1:1-4 as well as Phil 2:5-11 in which these three writers (John, author of Hebrews, Paul) give the high conception of the Person of Christ (both Son of God and Son of Man) found also in the Synoptic Gospels and even in Q (the Father, the Son). This word (the Septuagint and the New Testament) can no longer be considered purely "Biblical" (Thayer), since it is found in inscriptions (Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 91) and in the papyri (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.). See it already in Luke 2:7 and Codex Sinaiticus ('Aleph) for Matt 1:25; Rom 8:29. The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like "all creation" pasees (NT:3956) ktiseoos (NT:2937), by metonomy the act regarded as result)]. It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prootos (NT:4413) that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Col 1:18; Rom 8:29; Heb 1:6; 12:23; Rev 1:5. Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before "all creation" (angels and men). Like eikoon (NT:1504) we find proototokos (NT:4416) in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logos teaching (Philo) as well as in the Septuagint. Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikoon (NT:1504) (Image) and to the universe as proototokos (NT:4416) (First-born)."

(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997 by Biblesoft & Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press)

Dave, can you speak in your own words? Or do you have to use dictionaires and explanations copy and pasted from other men? Also I want to say, we do not have to have a degree, nor know about "literary device" to know the Truth. Nor do we have to know Koine Greek, Hebrew, nor Aramaic.

 

[dfj]

Dave, you called me Jacob.

The plan of salvation was made prior to creation.

You said nothing in any scripture you know of states or implies that Jesus was alive with God in heaven before Jesus came to earth.

Here are scriptures for you to consider carefully:

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

That one scripture should be enough for you, but here is more:

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Psalm 110:1 Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

I apologize Anastacia.

Jesus is referring to the incarnate Logos of His Father. Jesus knew who he was, what he was comprised of.

I keep referring to The Father's Logos as John has said.

This section of Scripture is not meant to draw a picture of Jesus Christ the man, walking around with His Father in heaven after His resurrection.

 

[Anastacia]

Jesus was alive with God even before Jesus came to earth.

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

This section of Scripture is not meant to draw a picture of Jesus Christ the man, walking around with His Father in heaven after His resurrection.

Do you think that is what Jesus looks like now? the way he looked in his human form in the flesh on earth? If you do, then you are badly mistaken.