1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Soul Sleep?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Hidden In Him, Dec 8, 2018 at 1:25 AM.

Tags:
  1. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,546
    Likes Received:
    1,514
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Accidentally posted this in Apologetics when it need to be in Debate, so I will post it here now:

    Greetings all, and blessings in name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I was recently in a discussion and this subject came up. I'm certain this has been debated at this forum already, but since I was not a part of those discussions let me just highlight some passages I believe contradict this teaching. We can take it from there.

    17 And it came to pass afterward, that the son of the woman the mistress of the house was sick; and his sickness was very severe, until there was no breath left in him. 18 And she said to Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O man of God? hast thou come in to me to bring my sins to remembrance, and to slay my son? 19 And Elijah said to the woman, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and took him up to the chamber in which he himself lodged, and laid him on the bed. 20 And Elijah cried aloud, and said, Alas, O Lord, the witness of the widow with whom I sojourn, thou hast wrought evil for her in slaying her son. 21 And he breathed on the child thrice, and called on the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, let, I pray thee, the soul of this child return to him. 22 And it was so, and the child cried out, 23 and he brought him down from the upper chamber into the house, and gave him to his mother; and Elijah said, See, thy son lives. 24 And the woman said to Elijah, Behold, I know that thou art a man of God, and the word of the Lord in thy mouth is true. (1 Kings 17:17-24)

    The question here would be: Why would Elijah pray to God that the soul of this boy return to him? If that soul was asleep, where would it be returning from?

    For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring you to God, having been put to death in the flesh but made alive through the Spirit, in which He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who were once disobedient in the days of Noah when the long-suffering of God waited as an ark was being prepared, into which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water, an antitype of the baptism that now also saves you, not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, He having ascended into Heaven with angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Peter 3:18-22)

    The question here is this: If the souls of these Old Testament saints were asleep, how could Jesus have preached to them after His resurrection? Peter was talking here about Christ descending to Sheol after the crucifixion to share the message that He was the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world with Noah and his descendants. Through His sacrifice they could now ascend (from Paradise, located in Sheol at the time) to rise with Him into Heaven.

    And [Jesus] said to them... "Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, being festive during the day in splendor. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his porch, being full of sores, and desiring to be filled with whatever fell from the rich man's table. But coming, even the dogs licked his sores. And it came to pass that the poor man died, and was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich man also died, and was buried. And having lifted up his eyes in Hades, being in torment, he saw Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom. And crying out, he said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool mu tongue, for I am in pain in these flames. But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you received your good things during your lifetime, and Lazarus likewise received evil things. But here he is comforted, and you are in pain. And amongst those here, between all of you and all of us, a great chasm has been firmly established, so that those who wish to pass from here to all of you are unable, nor can anyone pass from there to us." (Luke 16:15, 19-26)

    The question here is this: I know those who believe in soul sleep say this is merely a "parable." But if that's the case (and the text says nowhere that it is), why would Jesus be using a parable that suggests the soul continues to exist after death if it does not?

    Btw, regarding the expression "soul sleep," I view it as merely a means the Lord and the New Testament writers used to deflect from the grief believers might feel of thinking their loved ones were gone forever. "Sleeping" is how we present the dead in their coffins during a wake for this same reason. It softens the blow, especially for the faithful, who can view their beloved as merely in repose, with their body awaiting the resurrection.

    As always, special thanks to anyone who replies in advance.
    Blessings in Christ,
    Hidden In Him.

    @brakelite , @quietthinker , @Harvest 1874 , @Phoneman777 , @Enoch111 , @Episkopos , @bbyrd009 , @Naomi25, @charity , @friend of
     
    friend of, "ByGrace" and Taken like this.
  2. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    540
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Firstly Hidden, the expression 'soul sleep' as such is not one found in the scriptures. It is an expression coined external to the scriptures.

    Secondly, the scripture uses the expression 'sleep' for the death we experience in the present time on earth. It uses this term because all who have experienced this death will at one point be resurrected, both good and evil. In that sense it is not final, subsequently it is referred to in scripture as a sleep.

    This is quiet clear in the raising of Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha (see John 11:11-14) and a distinctly different character to the Lazarus named in the illustration Jesus used in your quote above from Luke.
    This expression of 'sleeping' is again used when the daughter of the ruler of the synagogue had died (see the account here Luke 8:49-56)

    The angel in Daniel references this expression also (see Daniel 12:2) and there is the account of the stoning of Stephan where this term is used (see Acts 7:60) As always please read the immediate context of scriptures quoted.

    Finality re death is referred to in scripture as 'the second death' (see Revelation 20:6, 20:14)

    Have you not read the account of Man's creation in Eden where God forms him of the dust of the ground and breathes into Adam the breath of life and he became a living soul?? (Genesis 2:7)
    It is clear that Adam became a living soul....he did not receive a soul of any description. This is not ambiguous!

    For the sake of brevity I will leave it at that.
     
    brakelite, bbyrd009 and Harvest 1874 like this.
  3. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,139
    Likes Received:
    975
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Soul Sleep ~
    (Like a BODY physically SLEEPS) ? No.

    Soul Sleep ~
    (Like a Living SOUL, outside of its BODY, BUT, such living SOUL, "NOT WITH the Lord") ?
    Perhaps, that is some people's intended meaning.

    Why use the term "SLEEP"?

    SLEEP, in Scripture refers to:
    The same thing, human bodies commonly do, as a Rest period for "THEIR PHYSICAL BODY".

    SLEEP, is an "indication" of a "TEMPORARY", rest period....for a BODY.
    (Like a nap, a snooze.....OR a physically DEAD BODY, that shall ONE DAY BE RAISED UP for Judgement.
    EIther Raised up in Glory and Immortality
    Or
    Raised up in Damnation and Sentenced to distruction.)

    SLEEP/ REST "for a Living Soul, departed out of its physically dead body"...."waiting for Judgement day" ?

    I suppose there are two schools of thought on that;

    1) That Living "SAVED" Souls, are "at Sleep/Rest"...."waiting for Judgement Day".

    2) That Living "UNSAVED" Souls, are "at Sleep/Rest"...."waiting for Judgement Day"

    I would REJECT BOTH scenarios...

    1) A Saved Living Soul....whether IN or OUT of its "ALIVE or DEAD" Body...IS NOT RESTING....but RATHER PRAISING the Lord God.

    2) An UN-Saved Living Soul...IN it's "ALIVE" body "IS busy on Earth" "being corrupted" by it's own "natural bodily life"

    And an UN-Saved Living Soul...OUT of it's "DEAD" body...IS busy "busy in Hell", "suffering the consequences," of "Being separated from God".

    Thus, I see NO TIME, a Living Soul, is Sleeping/Resting.

    God Bless,
    Merry Christmas
    Taken
     
    "ByGrace" and Hidden In Him like this.
  4. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,546
    Likes Received:
    1,514
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I can't say as there's much here that I disagree with, including that the Lazarus whom Jesus raised from the dead is likely not the same Lazarus as referred to in Luke 16. However, I was glancing at the interpretation at an Amazing Facts web page last night, and I have some objections to what the writer was saying. I suppose all SDA interpretations are not aways the same, however. Maybe I will post them later and we can discuss it. For now I'd like to see what other responses I get first.

    Thank you for the kind response : )
     
  5. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    19,470
    Likes Received:
    5,774
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    ! ty
    same "Lazarus" in two diff perspectives prolly, but they can be perceived as types rather than actual ppl, The amazing name Lazarus: meaning and etymology
    Lazarus = Eleazer

    so iow the beggar Lazarus at the rich man's door is...a story about a guy who would have been immediately recognizable to those present as an icon, a symbol, and the symbology is even apparent to you already, most likely; only writings back then were rare and shared, and Roman eyes had to be mislead, so "Lazarus" was invented bc a Roman would never connect him to Eleazer, see, but a Hebrew would get it immediately
    imo
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018 at 10:04 AM
  6. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,626
    Likes Received:
    325
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    In the Hebrew soul is the physical body, not the spirit.

    Upon death the body/soul sleeps in the ground waiting for the resurrection.

    When you look at all said in the Bible Lazarus had not suffered final death. He was not resurrected from the dead. He was resuscitated.

    Same as in Jerusalem. It says the recently departed came out of the graves and were recognized. Not all in the graves came out of the graves.

    Every similar report is talking about people whose bodies are still intact, not decayed.

    The Bible makes it clear when your spirit leaves your body that is it. It is not coming back until resurrected.

    Bible declares Jesus is the only one who has been resurrected to date.
     
  7. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,392
    Likes Received:
    884
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    addressing the OP only,
    Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    the answer is given in the scripture, 17 And it came to pass afterward, that the son of the woman the mistress of the house was sick; and his sickness was very severe, until there was no breath left in him.
    BREATH, Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
    ok, where did the soul come from? let's examine the term "BECAME" because that's what the soul did, became "Living". and also, we need to see what the word of the Lord says.

    first, the term became: in other words, "to consisted of". be composed or made up of.
    so we have two components, 1. dust/Body and 2. Breath/spirit. what do the scriptures say?
    Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.
    one more,
    Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (this is the final Judgment)

    ok, knowing this, once more, Jas 2:26a For as the body (dust) without the spirit (Breath) is dead

    man became a "LIVING" Soul when dust/Body (Location, here in earth) meets spirit/Breath (Location in God/Spirit). these are the two components that makes a soul living.
    now two more scripture,
    Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
    consciousness, and adwareness is associate with memory.

    so, from scriptures, we know that the spirit of man returnes to God/the Spirit who gave it. and the body returns to earth from where it came from.

    but this is the state of the soul after natural birth and natural DEATH, listen.
    Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.
    one more,
    Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

    but what about this?
    Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    Hold it! God said "I knew thee BEFORE I formed thee in the womb. meaning Jeremiah had no BODY/DUST yet formed. but yet God had a "memory" of Jeremiah.

    so the solution is to back engineer, or reverse engineer these scriptures, then one will have the answer to where to Soul is at before "Live" birth, and it's "intrinsic" place in God.


    this will probably give away the answer to the above question, so I'll answer it this way with one scripture.
    Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

    again I'll used only one verse,
    Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    ******************
    My example, only my example in trying to convey an understanding.
    taken from a computer example. ROM, Read Only Memory (the BREATH, or the spirit), vs RAM, Random Access Memory.

    so what's the difference? ROM (our spirits/Breath) can hold data without power and RAM cannot.
    remember what was written,
    Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

    consciousness, and adwareness is associate with memory. when the spirit ROM, (the Living component, the breath of Life) meet the Body/the Dust, the RAM/soul now holds the "memory" which is the person.
     
    Hidden In Him likes this.
  8. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,626
    Likes Received:
    325
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Read something besidesThe KJV for such as the boy.

    The soul cannot leave the body. It is part of it. The spirit is what leaves.

    As with the boy other translations say life returns to the body. In other words it just starts functioning again. The spirit never left.
     
  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,618
    Likes Received:
    1,825
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    This is correct, and when we read about *those who sleep in Jesus* it is simply a reference to saints who died in Christ. It is definitely NOT an indication that souls are sleeping in their graves. And the proof of that is the description of the martyrdom of Stephen, where he is said to fall asleep, but he had already asked the Lord Jesus to receive his spirit to Heaven (where Christ was seated at the right hand of the Father, but in the case of Stephen, the Lord actually stood up to receive him).

    There is an awful lot of confusion about the afterlife because some of it is deliberately promoted by the cults. Firstly, the doctrine of a literal Hell (the Lake of Fire) -- where the unsaved are in eternal torment -- was rejected by theological liberals, and then by those who claimed to be Bible students but wanted to reject this doctrine. So they focused on all the passages in the OT which refer to Sheol, and then simply rejected the New Testament revelations about the afterlife.

    The narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus cannot possibly be a parable. Parables are earthly stories with heavenly meanings, but here we have a description of Sheol/Hades and the afterlife which was never revealed in the OT. Actual persons are named in this narrative, and it fits with everything else we know about Sheol/Hades and the Lake of Fire.

    What Scripture reveals is that man is a tripartite being -- body, soul, and spirit and death is SEPARATION. The soul and spirit are separated from the body at death. Those who are in Christ go to be with Christ (meaning their souls and spirits) while the body seemingly *sleeps* in the grave. At the Resurrection/Rapture, these souls and spirits are reunited to their glorious immortal bodies and return to Heaven. Paul calls them *spiritual* bodies but they are transformed flesh and bones (as was Christ's resurrected body) radiating light.

    Those who are without Christ go to Sheol/Hades to await the resurrection of damnation, followed by their being cast into the Lake of Fire after the Great White Throne Judgment. And this is the precise reason for the command and urgency to preach the Gospel to every creature.

    And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)

    (For those who have been deceived into thinking that the Last Twelve Verses of Mark are not Scripture, please read a book by that same title written by one of the leading textual scholars of the 19th century -- John William Burgon.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018 at 11:50 AM
    Hidden In Him likes this.
  10. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,052
    Likes Received:
    9,797
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    In life and in death of this body of mine...my soul with ever be praising the Lord.
    At the transfiguration on the mount...I do not believe that Moses and Elijah were woken from sleep, and then sent back to sleep.
    I believe there is a thin vail between this world and the next...I believe , when called, they just stepped from out of one realm , through the curtain into this , then they simply 'stepped back' out of sight. Jesus obviously function easily in both realms.

    My parents left their bodies behind like old coats, and are functioning wherever they are enjoying God...while waiting for the whole body to come together in glory.
     
    Hidden In Him likes this.
  11. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,392
    Likes Received:
    884
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Correct our bodies is not "us". it's just a house, or as you said, "old coats", or dwelling place. the you, me, is the Soul.

    as for Moses and Elijah that was in a vision. but not saying that you're right or wrong, because God can do anything he wants.

    and correct, "Jesus obviously function easily in both realms". true, and scripture supports this.
    Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

    be blessed.
     
    Hidden In Him and "ByGrace" like this.
  12. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,626
    Likes Received:
    325
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Elijah has not died yet and will not until mid trib. Along with Enoch.They are alive in heaven in their flesh and blood bodies that God removed them from the earth in.
     
  13. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,546
    Likes Received:
    1,514
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The KJV is accurate here. ἐπιστραφήτω δὴ ἡ ψυχὴ τοῦ παιδαρίου τούτου εἰς αὐτόν = "let the soul (literally, the psyche) of this child return to him."
    So that I understand your position better, answer these other two questions for me:
     
  14. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,626
    Likes Received:
    325
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Soul and spirit confuse a lot of people.

    Spirit is the true us. That upon death which goes to heaven or hell.

    The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
    Strong's Number:
    05315 Browse Lexicon
    Original Word
    Word Origin
    Xpn from (05314)
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Nephesh TWOT - 1395a
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    neh'-fesh Noun Feminine
    Definition
    1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
      1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
      2. living being
      3. living being (with life in the blood)
      4. the man himself, self, person or individual
      5. seat of the appetites
      6. seat of emotions and passions
      7. activity of mind
        1. dubious
      8. activity of the will
        1. dubious
      9. activity of the character
        1. dubious
    So the breath of life return to the boy, not his spirit, because it never left.

    It is the Holy Spirit, not the holy soul, in example.

    Angels are spirits, not souls.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
     
  15. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,546
    Likes Received:
    1,514
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You don't think angels have souls? You do know that a soul is a personality, yes? A psyche?
     
    Nancy likes this.
  16. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    There are many aspects one could discuss related to death. But let us leave out all the philosophies of man and the vague interpretive opinions regards what the Bible means, but let us simply and humbly accept what the Bible says. Nor let us choose just one text or passage, but let us survey the whole scripture record, comparing scripture with scripture, line upon line, here a little there a little, and come then to a conclusion weighing up the evidence.

    First, let us begin where God began…creation. Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Here described is the nature of man. Succinctly and clearly, with no ambiguity and no interpretation necessary. Man is a living soul. We are a combination of two things. Dust, and breath of life…spirit. That combination forms the soul. When we die, Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. And as a result of that separation of dust and breath, body and spirit, the soul ceases to exist. As Ezekiel says, the soul that sinneth it shall die. The man, the human being, dies. The body becomes corrupted and turns into mud, and the life force that animated the body making it a living soul, returns to God. There is no evidence in scripture, anywhere, hinting or speaking either implicitly or explicitly, that the spirit that returns to God at death has a life of its own carrying the consciousness or personality of the former man.

    We must remember that as the scriptures clearly declare , that God alone is immortal, but that He also is Spirit. God alone is an immortal Spirit. So unless it can be shown that the spirit He gave to man is immortal in the same manner as He is, that is carrying the personality and memories and life of the former bearer, we must assume that the spirit is merely that which is revealed thus far…the breath of life that in conjunction with dust, forms the living soul.

    You see, throughout the church age, until just recently, the hope of the Christian was the resurrection. The hope of eternal life was not in going to heaven at death, but in the reuniting of the decayed body in the grave, with the spirit once again creating a living soul. We all know this takes place at no other time than at the second coming. It makes no sense to believe that spirits are in heaven having a mind, a face, fingers and toes, arms and legs, a head to think with, a mouth to praise with, eyes to see with….all these things are still in the grave along with the rest of the body.

    And scripture attests to this very thing. Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun……
    …..10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

    Job 14:9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant. 10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

    Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

    Psalms 88:10 ¶ Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. 11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? 12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

    Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

    Kings, prophets, and priests alike testified that in the grave, there is no life, not until the resurrection.

    Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    Why must the redeemed seek for immortality or eternal life if it came naturally? It is clear from many scriptures that eternal life is a gift granted by grace to the one who accepts Christ as his Savior. Never is it even hinted at anywhere that eternal life is granted to the sinner. The second death is that same death described above…no consciousness…no life….complete oblivion. That death, that oblivion, is the eternal punishment , the eternal death from which there is no resurrection, no hope of the reunion of spirit and body, complete and utter separation from the only source of life, the Living God.
     
    quietthinker likes this.
  17. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,392
    Likes Received:
    884
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Where do it say this in the bible?,
    Elijah and Enoch both died natural deaths. both men was transported, or was carried from one place on the planet to another location to escape death at that time, but both died. Elijah was only caught up into the atmospheric heaven (the first heaven) and not into Paradise where God's throne is located.

    In the New Testament we read of Enoch in Heb. 11:5, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God”. This verse seems to say that Enoch did not die. But we read in verse 13 of this same chapter, “These all died in faith….”. To whom does the word “these” refer? It refers to all those from verse 4 to verse 13, including Enoch. so, there is absolutely no logical reason to exclude Enoch in those that died. but also these is refered to those who did not get the promise but died in faith and now is still awating christ return, listen.
    Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    the promise is,
    Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
    Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
    Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
    Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
    Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
    Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

    Listen up people. one need to read Hebrews chapter 11 again.

    here the Greek word for "Translate" which Enoch was
    G3179 μεθίστημι methistemi (me-thiy'-stee-miy) v.
    μεθιστάνω methistano (me-thiy-sta'-nō)
    to transfer, i.e. carry away, depose or (figuratively) exchange, seduce.
    [from G3326 and G2476]
    KJV: put out, remove, translate, turn away

    simply put, God removed Enoch from where he was to avoid being killed.

    and we have an event in the New Testament to certify this "translation" or transport, or the movement from one (Location) place to another by the Spirit/God. Philip, who baptize the Ethiopian Eunuch is the example.
    Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
    Acts 8:40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

    this is what happen to ELIJAH also. for after his transport, or removal, (which was not the first time it happen), they looked for him and could not find him. but later the then king of Israel revieved a letter from Elijah.
    2Chr 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
    THIS IS SEVEN YEARS AFTER HIS FIERY CHARIOT INCIDENT.

    the Lord Jesus is clear,
    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    if no MAN has asended into heaven where the son of man came from, (the third heaven), then that closes the case.

    one last thing,
    well Hebrews chapter 11 eliminates Enoch, Elijah, and anyone else from that mistake. as for flesh and blood?
    1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. well what is the KINGDON of God? the Holy Spirit. (Romans 14:17). but was not all the saints, of Hebrews chapter 11 states) was looking for a resting place? let's see,
    Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
    a city is a physical thing.

    Elijah and Enoch both had natural bodies with blood. if they went to heaven in flesh and blood bodies, (corruption) then 1Cor 15:50 is a lie. because they must be "CHANGE" and if they was Change, then God lied, (God forbid), for the Lord is the FIRST FRUIT of the Resurrection. and the resurrection don't come with "Blood". supportive scripture,
    Luke 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
    Luke 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
    Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have". WHAT'S MISSING? ... BLOOD.
    so, #1. they are not in heaven, then and NOW. #2. they are dead, awaiting the return of the Lord Jesus, to be raised, and to enter the NEW CITY, the New Jerusalem, which is a country in size..

    also in the transfiguration, if Elijah and Moses Elijah had new bodies, then Christ is not the first fruit. but as BG said, for God is the Lord of the Living and the dead, hence his rising from the dead.

    the key to end any of these thoughts about the dead that are not bibicial, just READ Hebrews chapter 11.
     
    amadeus and "ByGrace" like this.
  18. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,626
    Likes Received:
    325
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States

    Hebrews 11:5 New International Version (NIV)

    5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

    2 Kings 2:11 New International Version (NIV)
    11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
     
  19. Heb 13:8

    Heb 13:8 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,877
    Likes Received:
    317
    I believe that being naked in the grave is referring to death. Rapture and resurrection is when we are finally clothed with immortality. The truth is so easy, but the world love Satan's lies.

    Job 1:21 and said: “Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised.”

    Ecc 5:15 Everyone comes naked from their mother's womb, and as everyone comes, so they depart. They take nothing from their toil that they can carry in their hands.

    2Co 5:3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.

    .....................................................................

    1 Cor 15:53-54 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

    2 Cor 5:4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
     
  20. Heb 13:8

    Heb 13:8 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,877
    Likes Received:
    317
    Hades is the grave where believers and non believers rest in death until resurrection day (the Bema and the Great White Throne). Hell on the other hand is another word for the lake of fire where final judgment occurs.

    I agree with LuftWaffle... Annihilationism vs. Traditionalism.

    Enoch and Elijah are the rare item, the story without all the answers.

    Always remember, where there is a contradiction there is no truth. One might ask themselves why Job, Solomon and Paul contradicts Enoch and Elijah's story. The contradiction especially would be with Paul. Did Paul lie when he said we are not clothed in immortality until rapture and first resurrection (1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4).

    The Bible is infallible, so whatever the reason God had for Enoch and Elijah He had it done specifically to them and not the rest of humanity. Maybe God wanted the OT saints to know there is indeed life after death, in order to increase their faith (a lesson in faith).

    Gen 5:24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

    Heb 11:5-6 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

    When the Bible is silent on certain matters, the next thing to look towards are contradictions. If you can't find the truth in contradictions then you pray about it, give it to the Father in prayer.
     
Loading...