If spirit does not have a spirit body what does have and what is it?
Even if just a global of energy and is still a body.
Not sure you read my post right.. I was saying the spirit man has a spirit body.
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If spirit does not have a spirit body what does have and what is it?
Even if just a global of energy and is still a body.
Yes, did you not read,So God has a physical body?
Not sure you read my post right.. I was saying the spirit man has a spirit body.
are you speaking in the resurrection?I was agreeing with your point and adding to it.
What is the spirit body? I have yet to see an answer to that anywhere.
I was agreeing with your point and adding to it.
What is the spirit body? I have yet to see an answer to that anywhere.
Souls and spirits can communicate without bodies.
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Rev 6:9,10)
God and angels are spirits. So how can a talk by your thinking?
My apologies. Just now noticing you posted me. Well this assumes that the spirit man has no body. That's not something I believe. I believe the spirit man exists in a spirit body, just as the fleshy man exists in a fleshly body. Paul said of his trip to Third Heaven that he didn't know whether he was in his earthly body or not, but he was most certainly in a body of some sort or he would have said, "And I didn't have a body," i.e. or a tongue, or a finger either.
According to your literal understanding of the Bible the Abel's blood talked as well.Souls and spirits can communicate without bodies.
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Rev 6:9,10)
Okay. You have brought up a related side issue that is actually far more consequential to our understanding of salvation than so called soul sleep. That issue is controversial, and one that deeply divides the church. It is an issue because of what theologians have created to explain their understanding of the Godhead. The doctrine of the Trinity. Because they say, (my own church included) all three members of the Godhead are perfectly equal in every respect and cannot be divided because they together form the one God, thius each member is being inherently immortal, no individual member of the Godhead, such as the Son, can die.Now, if soul sleep were true and Hades were to be translated "grave" here (which as I can show you never carries much weight as a translation), it would mean Peter was saying that even Jesus engaged in soul sleep, which would seem to be a problem for me if I were to believe Him to be God incarnate. Maybe the position is that Christ's soul never slept like the others did to begin with, I don't know. But if it did not, I'm wondering how soul sleep adherents interpret this verse. Just thought I'd point it out.
So if the Son did not truly die, I put it to you that our salvation and redemption is a false hope, because of Jesus did not take the full weight of death upon Himself as required by the law, we are still irrevocably lost.
The Rich Man and Lazarus
Many will try to use Luke 16:19-31 as proof that there is conscious life after death, and that there is a place of eternal torment (Hell). It is important to point out that Luke 16:19-31 is the fifth in a series of parables as follows -
1. The lost sheep - Luke 15:3-7
Parables are designed to teach great moral principles. Each feature of the parable is not to be taken absolutely literally. The question in each parable is what are the great moral lessons. We get into deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parable literally rather than seek the lesson that Jesus is trying to teach. Let's go ahead and assume for a moment that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literally true story-
- 2. The lost coin - Luke 15:8-10
3. The lost boy - Luke 15:11-32
4. The unjust steward - Luke 16:1-13
5. The rich man and Lazarus - Luke 16:19-31
Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends for all of eternity. So, why did Jesus use this story and tell it as He did? What lesson(s) was He trying to teach?
- Do people actually have conversations between Heaven and Hell?
- Can those in heaven see people burning in Hell?
- Can they hear their screams?
- Would a finger dipped in water actually lessen the torment of another?
- Abraham must have a very large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there!
The Jews had a common story describing death as passing through a valley of darkness and they pictured salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham's bosom. The Jews also believed that riches were a sign of God's favor and poverty a sign of His displeasure. The rich man living sumptuously represents the Jews, who had access to the word of God but refused to share it. They were squandering and wasting the spiritual riches for which they were the stewards, as in the previous parable of the unjust steward. The Jews were the fig tree that bore no fruit (Mark 11:13-14, 20, Luke 13:6-9), and the husbandmen of the unproductive vineyard (Matt. 21:33-45, Mark 12:1-12, Luke 20:9-19). Lazarus represents the Gentiles, who the Jews would not minister to. So the rich man in the story, whom the Jews thought blessed of God, ends up in Hell, while the poor Lazarus is saved and greeted by Abraham. Jesus had reversed the outcome from what the Jews expected. This is why Jesus used the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in the way he did. It was not intended to convey the exact circumstances of Heaven or Hell, but rather to show to the Jews that they had grave misconceptions about who was saved and who was lost.
[Regarding Ecclesiates 9:10], I have a problem with the KJV translation of verse 10. It is not strict enough to the original languages.
In the Greek, we have this:
10 ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ποίημα καὶ λογισμὸς καὶ γνῶσις καὶ σοφία ἐν ᾅδῃ, ὅπου σὺ πορεύῃ ἐκεῖ. = "for there is no work, nor planning, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Hades where you are going." Hades was at once both the Underworld, and at other times more specifically the punishment side of the Underworld, what we today call Hell.
The Hebrew uses the word שְׁאוֹל, literally Sheol, which was a blanket term they used indiscriminately to refer to both sides of the Underworld (Paradise and Hades combined, and the "gulf" fixed between them, which the rich man could not cross over to get to Abraham and Lazarus. Incidentally it uses the word Hades there as well). Thus, if you regard both the LXX and Masoretic to be authoritative translations of the Old Testament, then the reference has to be to the Underworld.
A principle fault of believers is their belief in the natural immortality of the soul. They fail to recognise that we are all mortal beings...we die. The spirit is not a living immortal entity that thinks, and acts or is our conscious "self" continuing its immortal existence in heaven, or hell.
- The soul that sinneth, it shall die.. (Ezekiel.)
- God, who only hath immortality...(Paul)
Yes, Abel's SOUL indeed cried out to God about his innocent blood. And it was avenged.According to your literal understanding of the Bible the Abel's blood talked as well.
The rich man living sumptuously represents the Jews... Lazarus represents the Gentiles, whom the Jews would not minister to. So the rich man in the story, whom the Jews thought blessed of God, ends up in Hell, while the poor Lazarus is saved and greeted by Abraham.
Let's go ahead and assume for a moment that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literally true story-
- Do people actually have conversations between Heaven and Hell?
- Can those in heaven see people burning in Hell?
- Can they hear their screams?
Indeed that is exactly the purpose of this narrative of the afterlife. It is meant to be a warning to all that it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment.Many will try to use Luke 16:19-31 as proof that there is conscious life after death, and that there is a place of eternal torment (Hell).