Soul Sleep?

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101G

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So God has a physical body?
Yes, did you not read,
1Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.


1Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

is not Christ God, and will we see God, let the bible speak.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.


well God has a body, let's make it plain. "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have" (Luke 24:39). is Jesus God?, let's see,
John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
yep! God has a body
 

Hidden In Him

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I was agreeing with your point and adding to it.

What is the spirit body? I have yet to see an answer to that anywhere.

Ummm... spirit. :D

"Johnny, tell the contestant what he's won! An all-expense-paid trip to Hawaii for four!! Hooray!!"


4b43670e7363dfe04a96e67cf01681b5--cute-hamsters-google-search.jpg


Sorry. Getting late.
 
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brakelite

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I could summarise what is commonly called "soul sleep" like this...
I believe, like most Christians, that we go to heaven after we die. I just believe that there is an interval for us all until the resurrection. I don't see that as so unbiblical like so many make it out to be. And at least to my mind it is more logical as far as God's planning is concerned. What joy would there be for anyone in heaven now knowing the horrendous trials their loved ones are going through?
And we know from scripture that there is a resurrection of the wicked at the end of
the millennium. To what end would God be interested in raising people out of hell to judge them and send them back there? It sounds so clumsy and not, well, not very well planned.
But Jesus spoke of two resurrections. The first resurrection was the Christian hope through out church history. It is the resurrection we have to look forward to. And we go together.
 

Heb 13:8

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Souls and spirits can communicate without bodies.
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Rev 6:9,10)

No i'm sorry they can't. this is just a vision. can blood talk?

Cry of Abel’s Blood
 

Heb 13:8

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My apologies. Just now noticing you posted me. Well this assumes that the spirit man has no body. That's not something I believe. I believe the spirit man exists in a spirit body, just as the fleshy man exists in a fleshly body. Paul said of his trip to Third Heaven that he didn't know whether he was in his earthly body or not, but he was most certainly in a body of some sort or he would have said, "And I didn't have a body," i.e. or a tongue, or a finger either.

Spirit bodies are really not biblical. What's biblical is our spirit which is breath going back to the Lord. Paul went to the third heaven, but he came back and died on earth and now he is awaiting the resurrection
 
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brakelite

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Souls and spirits can communicate without bodies.
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Rev 6:9,10)
According to your literal understanding of the Bible the Abel's blood talked as well.
 
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brakelite

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Now, if soul sleep were true and Hades were to be translated "grave" here (which as I can show you never carries much weight as a translation), it would mean Peter was saying that even Jesus engaged in soul sleep, which would seem to be a problem for me if I were to believe Him to be God incarnate. Maybe the position is that Christ's soul never slept like the others did to begin with, I don't know. But if it did not, I'm wondering how soul sleep adherents interpret this verse. Just thought I'd point it out.
Okay. You have brought up a related side issue that is actually far more consequential to our understanding of salvation than so called soul sleep. That issue is controversial, and one that deeply divides the church. It is an issue because of what theologians have created to explain their understanding of the Godhead. The doctrine of the Trinity. Because they say, (my own church included) all three members of the Godhead are perfectly equal in every respect and cannot be divided because they together form the one God, thius each member is being inherently immortal, no individual member of the Godhead, such as the Son, can die.
So if the Son did not truly die, I put it to you that our salvation and redemption is a false hope, because of Jesus did not take the full weight of death upon Himself as required by the law, we are still irrevocably lost.
 
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brakelite

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The Rich Man and Lazarus

Many will try to use Luke 16:19-31 as proof that there is conscious life after death, and that there is a place of eternal torment (Hell). It is important to point out that Luke 16:19-31 is the fifth in a series of parables as follows -


  • 1. The lost sheep - Luke 15:3-7
    2. The lost coin - Luke 15:8-10
    3. The lost boy - Luke 15:11-32
    4. The unjust steward - Luke 16:1-13
    5. The rich man and Lazarus - Luke 16:19-31
Parables are designed to teach great moral principles. Each feature of the parable is not to be taken absolutely literally. The question in each parable is what are the great moral lessons. We get into deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parable literally rather than seek the lesson that Jesus is trying to teach. Let's go ahead and assume for a moment that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literally true story-

  • Do people actually have conversations between Heaven and Hell?
  • Can those in heaven see people burning in Hell?
  • Can they hear their screams?
  • Would a finger dipped in water actually lessen the torment of another?
  • Abraham must have a very large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there!
Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends for all of eternity. So, why did Jesus use this story and tell it as He did? What lesson(s) was He trying to teach?

The Jews had a common story describing death as passing through a valley of darkness and they pictured salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham's bosom. The Jews also believed that riches were a sign of God's favor and poverty a sign of His displeasure. The rich man living sumptuously represents the Jews, who had access to the word of God but refused to share it. They were squandering and wasting the spiritual riches for which they were the stewards, as in the previous parable of the unjust steward. The Jews were the fig tree that bore no fruit (Mark 11:13-14, 20, Luke 13:6-9), and the husbandmen of the unproductive vineyard (Matt. 21:33-45, Mark 12:1-12, Luke 20:9-19). Lazarus represents the Gentiles, who the Jews would not minister to. So the rich man in the story, whom the Jews thought blessed of God, ends up in Hell, while the poor Lazarus is saved and greeted by Abraham. Jesus had reversed the outcome from what the Jews expected. This is why Jesus used the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in the way he did. It was not intended to convey the exact circumstances of Heaven or Hell, but rather to show to the Jews that they had grave misconceptions about who was saved and who was lost.

These are the main points the parable teaches:

1. Like the parable of the talents (Matt 25:14-30), the unprofitable servant who squanders what the Lord has given him will be lost.

2. Riches gained by greed, dishonesty or oppressing the poor are not a sign of God's favor. Wealth is simply not an indicator of one's salvation.

3. The parable describes a great fixed gulf between the saved and the lost. Jesus clearly communicated that there is no second chance after death. The decision made in life determines our eternal destiny, and it simply cannot be changed after death.

4. Jesus points out that if the Pharisees rejected the clear teachings of God's word regarding salvation, they would also reject such a mighty, supernatural spectacular miracle as one being raised from the dead.

Note that a short while later in John 11:11-14,43,44 Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. As a result the Pharisees and chief priests plotted to kill Jesus (John 11:53) and Lazarus (John 12:10). So the words of Jesus in Luke 16:31 were indeed prophetic and fulfilled.

So parables are not meant to be taken literally as written. You must read beyond the literal text to see the important principle or lesson(s) being taught.
 

Hidden In Him

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So if the Son did not truly die, I put it to you that our salvation and redemption is a false hope, because of Jesus did not take the full weight of death upon Himself as required by the law, we are still irrevocably lost.

Whoa....

You're saying you believe Jesus died in Spirit as well? Man, Brakelite....

I'll agree with you on one thing: That's definitely controversial.
( :eek: )
 
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brakelite

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A principle fault of believers is their belief in the natural immortality of the soul. They fail to recognise that we are all mortal beings...we die. The spirit is not a living immortal entity that thinks, and acts or is our conscious "self" continuing its immortal existence in heaven, or hell.
  • The soul that sinneth, it shall die.. (Ezekiel.)
  • God, who only hath immortality...(Paul)
  • Ye shall not surely die...(Satan).

Who of the above do you believe?

Paul addressed the resurrection to the Thessalonian church:

1 Th 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring [forth from the grave] with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The Thessalonians were sorrowing over the dead, and concerned that because they were dead, they were gone forever and without any hope of salvation. Note that Paul does not comfort the Thessalonians by saying the immortal spirits of their dead loved ones are already blissfully in heaven in the presence of the Lord. Paul responds that just as Jesus was resurrected from the dead, so those who have died in faith will be resurrected at the second coming, then to ever be with the Lord. And Paul makes the point that this resurrection of the righteous dead precedes the living saints joining the Lord in the clouds. Paul is clearly reaffirming the resurrection hope to the Thessalonian church, not the immortality of the soul.

The resurrection of Jesus Christ demonstrates that for those with faith in Him, even the power of death can be overcome by that faith:

John 11:21-26 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Lazarus was dead, in the grave for four days. Martha knew nothing of Lazarus being in heaven for the last four days, she mourned because her brother was in his grave, and she knew he would remain there, dead, until until the resurrection of the last day, the second coming of Christ. Jesus told her that He was the giver of life, that He had power over the grave, and could immediately resurrect her brother from death, because He was and is the son of God, the Christ. This resurrection hope, that Jesus can and will defeat the power of the grave, is the fundamental promise of Christianity, the keystone in the arch of the Christian faith:

Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. ...
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rom 6:5-11 [NIV] If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--. because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Phil 3:10-14 [NIV] I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

1 Pet 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Neither Paul, Peter, or Jesus Himself, ever taught anyone to lay their hopes in a direct trip to heaven upon death.
 

Hidden In Him

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The Rich Man and Lazarus

Many will try to use Luke 16:19-31 as proof that there is conscious life after death, and that there is a place of eternal torment (Hell). It is important to point out that Luke 16:19-31 is the fifth in a series of parables as follows -
1. The lost sheep - Luke 15:3-7
  • 2. The lost coin - Luke 15:8-10
    3. The lost boy - Luke 15:11-32
    4. The unjust steward - Luke 16:1-13
    5. The rich man and Lazarus - Luke 16:19-31
Parables are designed to teach great moral principles. Each feature of the parable is not to be taken absolutely literally. The question in each parable is what are the great moral lessons. We get into deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parable literally rather than seek the lesson that Jesus is trying to teach. Let's go ahead and assume for a moment that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literally true story-

  • Do people actually have conversations between Heaven and Hell?
  • Can those in heaven see people burning in Hell?
  • Can they hear their screams?
  • Would a finger dipped in water actually lessen the torment of another?
  • Abraham must have a very large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there!
Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends for all of eternity. So, why did Jesus use this story and tell it as He did? What lesson(s) was He trying to teach?

The Jews had a common story describing death as passing through a valley of darkness and they pictured salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham's bosom. The Jews also believed that riches were a sign of God's favor and poverty a sign of His displeasure. The rich man living sumptuously represents the Jews, who had access to the word of God but refused to share it. They were squandering and wasting the spiritual riches for which they were the stewards, as in the previous parable of the unjust steward. The Jews were the fig tree that bore no fruit (Mark 11:13-14, 20, Luke 13:6-9), and the husbandmen of the unproductive vineyard (Matt. 21:33-45, Mark 12:1-12, Luke 20:9-19). Lazarus represents the Gentiles, who the Jews would not minister to. So the rich man in the story, whom the Jews thought blessed of God, ends up in Hell, while the poor Lazarus is saved and greeted by Abraham. Jesus had reversed the outcome from what the Jews expected. This is why Jesus used the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in the way he did. It was not intended to convey the exact circumstances of Heaven or Hell, but rather to show to the Jews that they had grave misconceptions about who was saved and who was lost.

This is the same interpretation that I read at the Amazing Facts website, Brakelite, but it seems to deny the existence of Sheol (i.e. the Underworld) altogether, which is mentioned countless times in both the Hebrew and Greek Old Testaments. What was your reply to the following post:
[Regarding Ecclesiates 9:10], I have a problem with the KJV translation of verse 10. It is not strict enough to the original languages.

In the Greek, we have this:
10 ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ποίημα καὶ λογισμὸς καὶ γνῶσις καὶ σοφία ἐν ᾅδῃ, ὅπου σὺ πορεύῃ ἐκεῖ. = "for there is no work, nor planning, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Hades where you are going." Hades was at once both the Underworld, and at other times more specifically the punishment side of the Underworld, what we today call Hell.

The Hebrew uses the word שְׁאוֹל, literally Sheol, which was a blanket term they used indiscriminately to refer to both sides of the Underworld (Paradise and Hades combined, and the "gulf" fixed between them, which the rich man could not cross over to get to Abraham and Lazarus. Incidentally it uses the word Hades there as well). Thus, if you regard both the LXX and Masoretic to be authoritative translations of the Old Testament, then the reference has to be to the Underworld.
 
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Hidden In Him

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A principle fault of believers is their belief in the natural immortality of the soul. They fail to recognise that we are all mortal beings...we die. The spirit is not a living immortal entity that thinks, and acts or is our conscious "self" continuing its immortal existence in heaven, or hell.
  • The soul that sinneth, it shall die.. (Ezekiel.)
  • God, who only hath immortality...(Paul)

This seems to contradict what you were saying about Jesus dying in Spirit as well as in the body. If Jesus was God then He could not die, correct? That's the reason why I was so shocked to read that you believe He died in Spirit. It flies in the face of the Godhead, and the Trinity.
 

Hidden In Him

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The rich man living sumptuously represents the Jews... Lazarus represents the Gentiles, whom the Jews would not minister to. So the rich man in the story, whom the Jews thought blessed of God, ends up in Hell, while the poor Lazarus is saved and greeted by Abraham.

Ok, now by this interpretation, you are teaching that the Jews will at some point cry out to Abraham to send the Gentiles to come ease their pain in Hell. According to your interpretation, the text would read: And crying out, he (i.e. the Jews) said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me (us), and send Lazarus (i.e. the Gentiles), that he (they) may dip the tip of his finger (i.e. their fingers) in water, and cool my tongue (i.e. our tongues), for I am (we are) in pain in these flames." You have all those Jews who rejected Christ here crying out for the Gentiles who received Christ to dip the tips of their fingers in water and touch the tip of their tongues? Isn't that a strange request for millions of Jews to be making en masse to millions of Gentiles en masse?

Also, you asked earlier if it was feasible that those in Hell could speak to those in Heaven. Here you have them doing just that, don't you? The orthodox position is that before the resurrection, Paradise and Hades were both in the Underworld, and a chasm separated the two, yet those on one side could nevertheless see the other across the chasm and communicate to them. Hence the rich man could see Lazarus and Abraham, and cry out to Abraham to send Lazarus across. You apparently deny this tradition, but replace it with the teaching that the unbelieving Jews will at some point in the future interact from Hell to Heaven with the believing Gentiles. Aren't you contradicting your own point by saying they CAN have conversations with them now?
Let's go ahead and assume for a moment that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literally true story-
  • Do people actually have conversations between Heaven and Hell?
  • Can those in heaven see people burning in Hell?
  • Can they hear their screams?
 
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Enoch111

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Many will try to use Luke 16:19-31 as proof that there is conscious life after death, and that there is a place of eternal torment (Hell).
Indeed that is exactly the purpose of this narrative of the afterlife. It is meant to be a warning to all that it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment.

The Lord Jesus Christ was the only one who would know exactly what transpires in Sheol/Hades and He lifted the curtain so that we could see the awfulness of Hades. He was also there for 3 days and 3 nights preaching to the spirits in prison, and proclaiming His victory on the Cross to the entire spirit world.

Those who claim it is merely a *parable* hate the doctrines of the afterlife as found in the Bible. Soul Sleep and Annihilationism are FALSE DOCTRINES.
 
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