Soul Sleep?

[101G]

First thanks for the reply, I agree with much you posted I agree except for a few points,

There is no evidence in scripture, anywhere, hinting or speaking either implicitly or explicitly, that the spirit that returns to God at death has a life of its own carrying the consciousness or personality of the former man.

I must disagree with this assessment to a point, and here's why.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
if there is no "consciousness", or memory of a former life, how can one give an "ACCOUNT" of the things done in the body,
2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So unless it can be shown that the spirit He gave to man is immortal in the same manner as He is, that is carrying the personality and memories and life of the former bearer, we must assume that the spirit is merely that which is revealed thus far…the breath of life that in conjunction with dust, forms the living soul.

here again I must disagree. first the OT,
Isa 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
tears is an emotion of the soul, now the NT,
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Now if the Soul is not living no more, and the Body goes back to the dust, Meaning not living, what's left? ...... the spirit, or the breath of LIFE.

 

[Heb 13:8]

And [Jesus] said to them... "Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, being festive during the day in splendor. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his porch, being full of sores, and desiring to be filled with whatever fell from the rich man's table. But coming, even the dogs licked his sores. And it came to pass that the poor man died, and was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich man also died, and was buried. And having lifted up his eyes in Hades, being in torment, he saw Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom. And crying out, he said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool mu tongue, for I am in pain in these flames. But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you received your good things during your lifetime, and Lazarus likewise received evil things. But here he is comforted, and you are in pain. And amongst those here, between all of you and all of us, a great chasm has been firmly established, so that those who wish to pass from here to all of you are unable, nor can anyone pass from there to us." (Luke 16:15, 19-26)

this is a parable, our tongue is a part of our body, so how can he talk without a body? our finger is a part of our body too.

 

[101G]

Hebrews 11:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

2 Kings 2:11 New International Version (NIV)
11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

did you not read my post?. Hebrews 11:13 eliminated any thought of Enoch still being alive. READ HEBREWS 11:13.

and as for Elijah, READ my post again #17.

and Hebrews chapter 11, exposes the lie again about the dead in heaven. FOR THESE (THE DEAD) HAD NOT RECEIVED THE PROMISE WHILE THEY WAS ALIVE.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Read something besidesThe KJV for such as the boy.

The soul cannot leave the body. It is part of it. The spirit is what leaves.

As with the boy other translations say life returns to the body. In other words it just starts functioning again. The spirit never left.

That's right, the word for spirit in Hebrew and Greek is actually "wind and breath". The only time we exist as wind is in the movie Ghost.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Those who are in Christ go to be with Christ (meaning their souls and spirits) while the body seemingly *sleeps* in the grave.

No, our spirits only which is translated "wind and breath" go back to Christ, we certainly don't live in heaven as wind and breath right?

 

[Enoch111]

No, our spirits only which is translated "wind and breath" go back to Christ, we certainly don't live in heaven as wind and breath right?

*Spirit * does NOT simply mean wind or breath, although ruach/pneuma can be translated in that manner IN CONTEXT. Here are the various meanings, depending on context:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4151: πνεῦμα (pneuma)

πνεῦμα, πνεύματος, τό (πνέω), Greek writings fromAeschylus and Herodotus down; Hebrew רוּחַ, Latin spiritus;...

1. a movement of air (gentle) blast;...

a. of the wind: ἀνέμων πνεύματα, Herodotus 7, 16, 1;Pausanias, 5, 25; hence, the wind itself, John 3:8; plural Hebrews 1:7 (1 Kings 18:45; 1 Kings 19:11; Job 1:19;Psalm 103:4 (), etc.; often in Greek writings).

b. breath of the nostrils or mouth, often in Greek writings from Aeschylus down: πνεῦμα τοῦ στόματος,2 Thessalonians 2:8 (Psalm 32:6 (), cf. Isaiah 11:4);πνεῦμα ζωῆς, the breath of life, Revelation 11:11(Genesis 6:17, cf. πνοή ζωῆς, ). (πνεῦμα and πνοήseem to have been in the main coincident terms; butπνοή became the more poetic. Both retain a suggestion of their evident etymology. Even in classical Greekπνεῦμα became as frequent and as wide in its application as ἄνεμος. (Schmidt, chapter 55, 7; Trench, § lxxiii.))

2. the spirit, i. e. the vital principle by which the body is animated...

b. a human soul that has left the body ((Babrius 122, 8)): plural (Latinmanes), Hebrews 12:23; 1 Peter 3:19.

So let's look at Hebrew 12:22-24 to prove that the souls and spirits of the saints are in the New Jerusalem, which is in Heaven, and where both God and Christ are resident.

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, [NT SAINTS] and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [OT SAINTS] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[Enoch111]

his is a parable, our tongue is a part of our body, so how can he talk without a body? our finger is a part of our body too.

Souls and spirits can communicate without bodies.
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Rev 6:9,10)

 

[101G]

So let's look at Hebrew 12:22-24 to prove that the souls and spirits of the saints are in the New Jerusalem, which is in Heaven, and where both God and Christ are resident.

ERROR, it haven happen yet, listen, verse 27.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

this will be done at Christ's coming to judgment; as the passing away of the heavens and the earth, which are things that are made, or created, by the power of God

now Enoch111 has the earth and the heaven passed away yet?.

 

[Hidden In Him]

And scripture attests to this very thing. Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun……
…..10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Greetings Brakelite, and blessings to you. I assumed this passage would come up. I hope Enoch doesn't read this because he always gets a little bent out of shape when I question his favorite Bible version, LoL, but I have a problem with the KJV translation of verse 10. It is not strict enough to the original languages.

In the Greek, we have this:
10 ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ποίημα καὶ λογισμὸς καὶ γνῶσις καὶ σοφία ἐν ᾅδῃ, ὅπου σὺ πορεύῃ ἐκεῖ. = "for there is no work, nor planning, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Hades where you are going." Hades was at once both the Underworld, and at other times more specifically the punishment side of the Underworld, what we today call Hell.

The Hebrew uses the word שְׁאוֹל, literally Sheol, which was a blanket term they used indiscriminately to refer to both sides of the Underworld (Paradise and Hades combined, and the "gulf" fixed between them, which the rich man could not cross over to get to Abraham and Lazarus. Incidentally it uses the word Hades there as well). Thus, if you regard both the LXX and Masoretic to be authoritative translations of the Old Testament, then the reference has to be to the Underworld.

Now, when it says "the dead know nothing," what he means is that they know nothing about whether they will encounter good or bad in this life, because they have now passed on. This is why it says, "The living [at least] know they will die, but the dead know nothing." He uses the word "know" in this same sense in v.12, when he says, "For surely man also knows not his time," or in other words, he knows not the time of his death. By like manner, no one on earth knows whether they will encounter love or hate in this life (v.1), or win in battle, or become wealthy in this life, or attain the favor of men, because "time and chance will happen to all" (v.11).

The overriding theme is that none of us really know much one way or the other, LoL, but at least the living know their is a time coming when they will die. The dead know absolutely nothing about what will go on under the sun anymore (v.6), because they have passed on to the Underworld (Hades).

 

[Enoch111]

ERROR, it haven happen yet, listen, verse 27.

How can it be *error* when Paul uses the present tense -- "ye are come"?

And verse 27 has nothing to do with this subject. Verse 25 begins a new topic "...how much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven...". This is a warning against unbelief.

The point you missed is that God speaks from HEAVEN, and He is surrounded by the souls and spirits of the saints which are PRESENTLY in Heaven (which was being denied by username *Heb 13:8*) !

 

[CoreIssue]

this is a parable, our tongue is a part of our body, so how can he talk without a body? our finger is a part of our body too.

God and angels are spirits. So how can a talk by your thinking?

 

[101G]

How can it be *error* when Paul uses the present tense -- "ye are come"?

And verse 27 has nothing to do with this subject. Verse 25 begins a new topic "...how much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven...". This is a warning against unbelief.

The point you missed is that God speaks from HEAVEN, and He is surrounded by the souls and spirits of the saints which are PRESENTLY in Heaven (which was being denied by username *Heb 13:8*) !

ERROR again, what has you come to? listen,
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Sonwhat Kingdom are you in? the Kingdom of God, which is the Holy Spirit)
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

you're not in the Holy City yet.

Souls and spirits can communicate without bodies.
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Rev 6:9,10)

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. (did Cain hear his brother's voice, the blood?)

what is the blood?, NATURAL LIFE, ... of the FLESH. supportive scripture,
Lev 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

question where was the Souls at, in Rev 6:9,10? UNDER the alter, which was on EARTH, for Christ shed his blood on the cross, the alter. and these souls was UNDER the alter, here on EARTH. case closed.

 

[CoreIssue]

ERROR again, what has you come to? listen,
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Sonwhat Kingdom are you in? the Kingdom of God, which is the Holy Spirit)
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

you're not in the Holy City yet.


Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. (did Cain hear his brother's voice, the blood?)

what is the blood?, NATURAL LIFE, ... of the FLESH. supportive scripture,
Lev 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

question where was the Souls at, in Rev 6:9,10? UNDER the alter, which was on EARTH, for Christ shed his blood on the cross, the alter. and these souls was UNDER the alter, here on EARTH. case closed.

Souls and spirits of the saints which are PRESENTLY in Heaven?
Souls do not go to heaven. Spirits do.

Souls are part of a our physical bodies.

 

[101G]

Souls and spirits of the saints which are PRESENTLY in Heaven?

give book, chapter and verse please.

 

[CoreIssue]

give book, chapter and verse please.

Revelation 6:9-11 New International Version (NIV)
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,a]">[a] were killed just as they had been.

This is a vision.

Our spirits go to heaven. At the resurrection our spirits reenter flesh bodies.

Angels and God are spirits, not souls.

Under the altar? What does that mean?

I believe, like revelations says the smoke from the altar is the prayers at the saints, we are seeing aspects of souls in heaven. Their feelings, pain, emotion, etc., But not the spirits of the dead saints.

No easy answer on this one but unless you believe we split into two at death, meaning the soul and the spirit, which presents a lot of problem.

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 5590 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
yuchv from (5594)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Psuche 9:608,1342
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
psoo-khay' Noun Feminine
Definition

1. breath
   1. the breath of life
      1. the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing 1a
   2. of animals 1a
2. of men
   1. life
   2. that in which there is life
      1. a living being, a living soul
3. the soul
   1. the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
   2. the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
   3. the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

 

[Hidden In Him]

Greetings Brakelite, and blessings to you. I assumed this passage would come up. I hope Enoch doesn't read this because he always gets a little bent out of shape when I question his favorite Bible version, LoL, but I have a problem with the KJV translation of verse 10. It is not strict enough to the original languages.

In the Greek, we have this:
10 ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ποίημα καὶ λογισμὸς καὶ γνῶσις καὶ σοφία ἐν ᾅδῃ, ὅπου σὺ πορεύῃ ἐκεῖ. = "for there is no work, nor planning, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Hades where you are going." Hades was at once both the Underworld, and at other times more specifically the punishment side of the Underworld, what we today call Hell.

The Hebrew uses the word שְׁאוֹל, literally Sheol, which was a blanket term they used indiscriminately to refer to both sides of the Underworld (Paradise and Hades combined, and the "gulf" fixed between them, which the rich man could not cross over to get to Abraham and Lazarus. Incidentally it uses the word Hades there as well). Thus, if you regard both the LXX and Masoretic to be authoritative translations of the Old Testament, then the reference has to be to the Underworld.

Now, when it says "the dead know nothing," what he means is that they know nothing about whether they will encounter good or bad in this life, because they have now passed on. This is why it says, "The living [at least] know they will die, but the dead know nothing." He uses the word "know" in this same sense in v.12, when he says, "For surely man also knows not his time," or in other words, he knows not the time of his death. By like manner, no one on earth knows whether they will encounter love or hate in this life (v.1), or win in battle, or become wealthy in this life, or attain the favor of men, because "time and chance will happen to all" (v.11).

The overriding theme is that none of us really know much one way or the other, LoL, but at least the living know their is a time coming when they will die. The dead know absolutely nothing about what will go on under the sun anymore (v.6), because they have passed on to the Underworld (Hades).

@brakelite: I was also looking at something else that I think presents problems for your position, though maybe you have an answer for it. In Acts 2:27 Peter quoted the following verse to say it was fulfilled when God the Father raised Jesus from the dead:

"Moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope, because You will not leave My soul in Hades, neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption" (Psalm 15:10, where ὅτι οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ᾅδην reads literally "You will not leave My soul in Hades.").

Now, if soul sleep were true and Hades were to be translated "grave" here (which as I can show you never carries much weight as a translation), it would mean Peter was saying that even Jesus engaged in soul sleep, which would seem to be a problem for me if I were to believe Him to be God incarnate. Maybe the position is that Christ's soul never slept like the others did to begin with, I don't know. But if it did not, I'm wondering how soul sleep adherents interpret this verse. Just thought I'd point it out.

Blessings in Christ.

 

[101G]

Revelation 6:9-11 New International Version (NIV)
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,a]">[a] were killed just as they had been.

This is a vision.

Already answered this in Post #2.
and yes this is a vivsion.....

Angels and God are spirits, not souls.

ERROR, angels are "spirits". but God is "A" Spirit. the angels are G2087 heteros with God. and in the resurrection, listen,
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

so even in the resurrection angels are not like God. so you need to correct your mistake.

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 5590 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
yuchv from (5594)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Psuche 9:608,1342
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
psoo-khay' Noun Feminine

God has a soul and is Spirit, like wise we also have a soul and a spirit. so that want work either.

 

[CoreIssue]

Already answered this in Post #2.
and yes this is a vivsion.....


ERROR, angels are "spirits". but God is "A" Spirit. the angels are G2087 heteros with God. and in the resurrection, listen,
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

so even in the resurrection angels are not like God. so you need to correct your mistake.


God has a soul and is Spirit, like wise we also have a soul and a spirit. so that want work either.

So God has a physical body?

 

[Hidden In Him]

this is a parable, our tongue is a part of our body, so how can he talk without a body? our finger is a part of our body too.

My apologies. Just now noticing you posted me. Well this assumes that the spirit man has no body. That's not something I believe. I believe the spirit man exists in a spirit body, just as the fleshy man exists in a fleshly body. Paul said of his trip to Third Heaven that he didn't know whether he was in his earthly body or not, but he was most certainly in a body of some sort or he would have said, "And I didn't have a body," i.e. or a tongue, or a finger either.

 

[CoreIssue]

My apologies. Just now noticing you posted me. Well this assumes that the spirit man has no body. That's not something I believe. I believe the spirit man exists in a spirit body, just as the fleshy man exists in a fleshly body. Paul said of his trip to Third Heaven that he didn't know whether he was in his earthly body or not, but he was most certainly in a body of some sort or he would have said, "And I didn't have a body," i.e. or a tongue, or a finger either.

If spirit does not have a spirit body what does have and what is it?

Even if just a global of energy and is still a body.