Soul Sleep

[DNB]

Correct. Sleep is simply a metaphor for death, since the corpse at the time of burial gives the appearance of sleeping.

That's nonsense Enoch111. Men of such wisdom and insight to the spiritual realms, would never describe or define a state of death and decay, as though it were vital. It's misleading, naive and erroneous. Lazarus (brother of Martha & Mary), for example, was 4 days in the grave, what did Christ do, bring him back from heaven? How could he even be in heaven before Christ paid the price to open the Gates? Lazarus was asleep, in a dormant state, as is Stephen, James the brother of John, and all who have died in his name. No judgement before Judgement Day, all things in order with God.

And why in the world would you pick an allegory to define a doctrine. Any novice can see that Jesus was not depicting heaven or paradise with his parable about the rich man and the other Lazarus. For, there is not one viable logistic in that entire allegory, not one eg: finger with water to alleviate the pain, opposite realms conversing between each other, fire as a torment for the unsaved, request to send a dead man back to earth, ....???? The entire pericope was a fabrication and an allegory, obviously!

 

[Enoch111]

That's nonsense Enoch111. Men of such wisdom and insight to the spiritual realms, would never describe or define a state of death and decay, as though it were vital.

Death and decay apply to the body. But the soul and spirit are separated from the body at death, so that is NOT nonsense but spiritual reality. The souls and spirits of the saints go to be with Christ. Those who are not saved go to Hades (in the lower parts of the earth or the core of the earth).

If you don't believe this take a shovel and dig around in some graveyard.

 

[mailmandan]

No Dan (if I may), 'sleep' is not a euphemism for death. No inspired writer would ever use such an inaccurate expression, to speak of something that is corrupting to annihilation.
Plus, flesh with no soul or vitality, does not sleep, think, dream or awaken. Dead matter has no such animation.
Thus, all the passages that you quoted were referring to the spirit of the corpse. Upon death and decay of the body, the spirit remains dormant and latent, waiting for the trumpet blast of Christ. Of which, those that are asleep, will be the first to rise and meet him in the air, followed by those who will be still alive at his coming.

When the Bible describes a person as "asleep" in relation to death (Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep, as if the spirit of the person is in a state of unconsciousness after physical death. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. Until the final resurrection, those who have physically died are either present with the Lord or in hades and are not asleep there. (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Luke 16:22-23)

 

[DNB]

Death and decay apply to the body. But the soul and spirit are separated from the body at death, so that is NOT nonsense but spiritual reality. The souls and spirits of the saints go to be with Christ. Those who are not saved go to Hades (in the lower parts of the earth or the core of the earth).
If you don't believe this take a shovel and dig around in some graveyard.

You just did a major digression there?
You originally said that 'sleep' was used to describe the body, because that is the appearance that it gives when it is dead. I said that no inspired writer would ever use such misleading and erroneous terminology to describe such a state, namely obliteration.
And to answer your somewhat deficient rebuttal, yes, exhume a body from a grave, and you will quickly see that no rational person under the sun, will ever described it as asleep.
You must appreciate the consistent use of 'asleep' as referring to the dead, it patently does not refer to the body, but the spirit. Therefore it means that the spirit is dormant and inert, which is precisely how a living body that is asleep appears.

 

[DNB]

When the Bible describes a person as "asleep" in relation to death (Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep, as if the spirit of the person is in a state of unconsciousness after physical death. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. Until the final resurrection, those who have physically died are either present with the Lord or in hades and are not asleep there. (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Luke 16:22-23)

Sorry Dan, you didn't explain anything, you just repeated your final conclusions.
I explained why the term 'asleep' is invalid to define a dead corpse, and rather, how appropriate it is to describe the state of the spirit during the interim period, i.e. death and Christ's return.

I see the support passages that you quoted. The rich man & Lazarus, was clearly an allegory, in order to make the point of the imminent obligation to accept Christ while you have the chance, and that there are no excuses to not do so during one's lifetime.
Every single logistic described in that allegory is implausible.
There will be no visual or communication between the two compartments, obviously.
The righteous will not be watching the wretched tormented night & day, obviously.
A finger tip of water will not alleviate the tormented's suffering, for their pain is mental not physical.
A request from a sinner, to send someone back to the living, is absurd, right?
Dan, you do see my point here?

When Paul stated that to be away from the body, is to be with Christ, he understands that that will be his final destination. And, that outside of an unconscious and oblivious interim period, he invariably will be in the Kingdom. That is, there will be no period of awareness between those two points, thus, no reference to it.

 

[Nancy]

Sorry Dan, you didn't explain anything, you just repeated your final conclusions.
I explained why the term 'asleep' is invalid to define a dead corpse, and how appropriate it is to describe the state of the spirit during the interim period, i.e. death and Christ's return.
I see the support passages that you quoted. The rich man & Lazarus, was clearly an allegory, in order to make the point of the imminent obligation to accept Christ while you have the chance, and that there are no excuses to not do so during one's lifetime.
Every single logistic described in that allegory is implausible.
There will be no visual or communication between the two compartments, obviously.
The righteous will not be watching the wretched tormented night & day, obviously.
A finger tip of water will not alleviate the tormented's suffering, for their pain is mental not physical.
A request from a sinner, to send someone back to the living, is absurd, right?
Dan, you do see my point here?

When Paul stated that to be away from the body, is to be with Christ, he understands that that will be his final destination, and outside of an unconscious and oblivious interim period, he invariably will be in the Kingdom. There will be no period of awareness between those two points, thus, no reference to it.

I've been reading some of the posts on this thread, and I must say that you have given me a new perspective on this subject...thank you for the food for thought

 

[DNB]

I've been reading some of the posts on this thread, and I must say that you have given me a new perspective on this subject...thank you for the food for thought

My pleasure Nancy, thank you very much!
Good luck studying!

 

[DNB]

Curiosity,do you believe this to be Biblical?

Your poll has two questions within it, how can one pick a single 'no' or a 'yes' to get their point across?
i.e. Is Soul-Sleep true or false, ....what does 'yes' mean to such a query?

 

[Nancy]

My pleasure Nancy, thank you very much!
Good luck studying!

Thank you!

 

[n2thelight]

Your poll has two questions within it, how can one pick a single 'no' or a 'yes' to get their point across?
i.e. Is Soul-Sleep true or false, ....what does 'yes' mean to such a query?

Yes means you believe soul sleep to be scripture No means you don't,if you care to elaborate you can...

 

[n2thelight]

I disagree. Abraham's bosom is to be taken symbolically, not literally. If you take Abraham's bosom literally, then you're saying the person who we know as Adam is still living and like I said, if someone believes Adam is still living, they're calling God a liar. The scriptures show that before Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living person, this person didn't exist before God did this act. So when God told Adam, after Adam sinned, dust you are and dust you will return. Then that means Adam went back into non-existence, since Adam didn't exist as a living person before God took dust and formed the dust into a human body and blowing the breath of life into the human body. The spirit as I said that man has is the same spirit that's in animals. If you're saying the spirit that God gave man is a person, then you're saying this person was in existence before God took the dust from the ground and forming the dust into a human body. I don't believe this person we know as Adam was in existence as a living person before God took dust formed the dust into a human body and blew the breath of life into that body. That's when I believe the person we know as Adam became a living person, not before.

In red is where your problem lies.

All the sons of God were with the Father when He created this earth,had satan not rebelled we would not had been made flesh.

Before I formed thee I knew thee ,and please don't say that's because He knows everything...

eremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Before Jeremiah was even concieved within his mothers womb, God is telling Jeremiah that He knew him, and before Jeremiah was born, God sanctified him, which is to set Jeremiah apart for God's mission. God ordained Jeremiah as a prophet, not only to Judah, by to the nations also. When we see the word "Nations" it is directed to the Gentile nations also. Jeremiah was a prophet to all nations.

In this final generation, this is amplified into the fact of the kings and queens that serve their people in the service of the living God. Think on that phrase, "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee." To understand this phrase, you have to understand the three earth ages, as it is taught in II Peter 3, that there was an earth age before this present one, that this earth is millions of years old. The manuscripts, even from this King James declare it, and Jeremiah will take us to that first earth age in the fourth chapter.

God foreknew Jeremiah, and knew that he was qualified to do the task that Jeremiah is about to be commissioned to do. Jeremiah had earned the right to fulfill that position, even in the first earth age.

 

[n2thelight]

Like the scriptures say the spirit in humans is the same spirit in animals. Also the scriptures tell us that when a person dies he has no more thoughts, so that means no more memories or emotions. The point is there was no spiritual person that went to God. If you believe that, then as I said you're saying the person didn't die. You're saying that there is no death, which is a lie. You can say all you want to, that you're saying Adam died, but if you believe the spirit that returned to God is a spiritual person then you are calling God a liar because you don't believe the person who we know as Adam is dead.

Where was Christ before He was born of woman?

 

[n2thelight]

Now let's go this way,who were the souls that Christ went to preach to in hell?

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

The purpose for Jesus Christ's coming to earth and living in the flesh, was so that He would die on the cross for your sins. Jesus was just [righteous] in all manner of His flesh life, and in His death "the Just" suffered for the sins of the unjust. Jesus Christ came to earth to die so that you do not need to go to hell, but by your faith in Him and belief in what Jesus has done on the cross, through your repentance to the Father in Jesus name you can be saved. It is your soul that receives eternal life, and when this flesh body dies and is laid in the ground, it is your spirit and soul that is quickened, or goes on living eternally. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, giving you new changed life, where there was only a dead soul before. Jesus died to bring all souls to the Father.

If you ever had any question as to what part of Jesus died on the cross, you have it right here. Jesus Christ's flesh body was died, whereas His spiritual body was quickened or made alive by His Spirit. Jesus was spiritually alive when He descended into the prison to preach to those lost souls.

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

These spirits that Christ preached to in prison, where the spirits of the saints that died prior to His death on the cross.

I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Not the word "sometime", they were not disobedient all the time like the fallen angels, but were disobedient while living in the flesh body. Do you think that it was the whether that saved those adamic souls? They were saved from the water, and the reason that God saved them is given in Genesis 6:9; "THESE ARE THE GENERATIONS OF NOAH: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."

The key to understanding this verse is in the word "perfect", for in the Hebrew text, it is the word "tamin", which means "without blemish as to breed or pedigree." In Genesis 6:1-7, when men started to multiply on the face of the earth, daughters were born to them. When the sons of God beheld the daughters of men, they desired them. Many "sons of God" or fallen angels left their place of habitation in the heavens and came to earth and multiplied with those daughters of flesh man, and from them came the Nethinim. This is what the book of Jude is all about.

Also, did He not talk to Moses and Elijah on the mount?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

In red is where your problem lies.

All the sons of God were with the Father when He created this earth,had satan not rebelled we would not had been made flesh.

Before I formed thee I knew thee ,and please don't say that's because He knows everything...

eremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Before Jeremiah was even concieved within his mothers womb, God is telling Jeremiah that He knew him, and before Jeremiah was born, God sanctified him, which is to set Jeremiah apart for God's mission. God ordained Jeremiah as a prophet, not only to Judah, by to the nations also. When we see the word "Nations" it is directed to the Gentile nations also. Jeremiah was a prophet to all nations.

In this final generation, this is amplified into the fact of the kings and queens that serve their people in the service of the living God. Think on that phrase, "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee." To understand this phrase, you have to understand the three earth ages, as it is taught in II Peter 3, that there was an earth age before this present one, that this earth is millions of years old. The manuscripts, even from this King James declare it, and Jeremiah will take us to that first earth age in the fourth chapter.

God foreknew Jeremiah, and knew that he was qualified to do the task that Jeremiah is about to be commissioned to do. Jeremiah had earned the right to fulfill that position, even in the first earth age.

I don't have a problem saying Adam didn't exist as a person before God took dust and molded it into clay, then blew the breath of life into the clay, then is when Adam became a living person not before, that's true. Just because God used his foreknowledge concerning certain people such as jeremiah and others doesn't mean jeremiah was literally living before he was born. This, how you believe or reason on the scriptures, is just another attempt to say death doesn't truly exist therefore you, just as Satan said God was a liar so do you and those who agree with you.
Where in Scripture does it say the Angel that became Satan and a devil rebelled before the incident in the garden of Eden? I trace in scriptures that Adam and Eve didn't rebell until after they were created in the garden called Eden. Why would spiritual beings need to become flesh because of the person who is known as Satan the devil?

 

[mailmandan]

You just did a major digression there?
You originally said that 'sleep' was used to describe the body, because that is the appearance that it gives when it is dead. I said that no inspired writer would ever use such misleading and erroneous terminology to describe such a state, namely obliteration.
And to answer your somewhat deficient rebuttal, yes, exhume a body from a grave, and you will quickly see that no rational person under the sun, will ever described it as asleep.
You must appreciate the consistent use of 'asleep' as referring to the dead, it patently does not refer to the body, but the spirit. Therefore it means that the spirit is dormant and inert, which is precisely how a living body that is asleep appears.

I see no agreement in sight between you and I on this topic. Moving on...

 

[Dave M]

Curiosity,do you believe this to be Biblical?

not at all

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Where was Christ before He was born of woman?

The scriptures tell us that he first was in heaven before becoming human, but he shows that our originality is from earth not from heaven like him.

 

[n2thelight]

The scriptures tell us that he first was in heaven before becoming human, but he shows that our originality is from earth not from heaven like him.

Thanks for you answer,however I disagree ,as Christ said He would not have us do what He didn't .
Who were the stars and the sons of God that shouted for joy when He created this earth?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Honestly, I would discourage Christians from letting certain Denominations have a monopoly on what the definition of Soul Sleep is.

Why should they get to decide what certain words mean? It reminds me of the word 'Woke' in which the agenda now is to make that word mean the exact opposite.

Do people not understand the fact that *Dreaming* is a part of sleeping?

In other words, if the term Soul Sleep included dreaming, then I would say it's True. But because some denomination says that sleep doesn't include dreams, well it just makes everyone look ignorant.

It's like the Christian version of Newspeak.

OSAS is another example. "You're saved, but your not saved. Just kidding... but not really..."



Maybe I should make up my own 'buzzterm' and call it "Soul Dreaming" because that is what I believe is implied by the term 'Sleep' in Scripture...

Genesis 20:3
"But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man’s wife"

Genesis 31:11
"And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I"

Genesis 31:24
"And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad"

Numbers 12:6
"And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream"

Etc. Etc.

Anyhow, here is what I believe happens to the dead...

The saved go to Abraham's Bosom which is like having a Pleasant Dream.
The Unsaved go to Torments which is like having a Nightmare.

In death, the Soul+Spirit can still interact with God just like in the verses above. And yes, I believe Abraham's Bosom still exists and will continue to exist until the very end. That is another example of the two Dream States.

Now whether someone who is dreaming is conscious or unconscious, I'll leave that up to you folks to decide.

From the dead person's perspective, the moment of death and the moment of resurrection would be instantaneous, because there is no sense of the passage of time when asleep.

Rip van Winkle slept for 100 years. But he wouldn't know it when he woke up because for him, he was previously awake an instant ago. So, when we die, and the coming of Jesus didn't come for another 500 years, we wouldn't know it because it seem like an instant to us. So soul sleep is a bit of a non-issue.

 

[n2thelight]

I don't have a problem saying Adam didn't exist as a person before God took dust and molded it into clay, then blew the breath of life into the clay, then is when Adam became a living person not before, that's true. Just because God used his foreknowledge concerning certain people such as jeremiah and others doesn't mean jeremiah was literally living before he was born. This, how you believe or reason on the scriptures, is just another attempt to say death doesn't truly exist therefore you, just as Satan said God was a liar so do you and those who agree with you.
Where in Scripture does it say the Angel that became Satan and a devil rebelled before the incident in the garden of Eden? I trace in scriptures that Adam and Eve didn't rebell until after they were created in the garden called Eden. Why would spiritual beings need to become flesh because of the person who is known as Satan the devil?

See you saying God's foreknowledge ,I respect that,but I can't as I don't feel He knows ,who will be saved except for those who were already justified .Example below

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Most will take this verse and say,it's because He knows everything(please please)don't think I'm limiting God, but He actually knew him,just like your mom got to know you when you were born.Just when your best fried got to know you and Ya'll became best friends