Job 10:11
"Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews"
^^^
The Secret to understanding why Adam and Eve were naked and God 'clothed' them with 'Skins'.
Soul Sleep
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Job 10:11
"Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews"
^^^
The Secret to understanding why Adam and Eve were naked and God 'clothed' them with 'Skins'.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
No he didn't, but I don't expect you to believe what the scriptures say. You, just as the Angel that became Satan and a devil, claim that The True God is a liar. Adam as well as all other persons who have lived on the planet died, no matter how much you teach they didn't.
The Sin is like dead to the soul because the Soul is not active to the persons mind.
The works of Sin is as death to the Soul. = the wages of Sin is death.
So the person who is not Saved is not in touch with there Soul, it's still their but not in contact or lost to the mind of the person. that's why a un saved Sinner will abide in Sin given the chance.
Ones Soul is always awake forever, as it can not be killed.
Ones Soul knows when what you do is wrong.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
The scriptures disagree. All the souls, humans and animals died, in the flood of Noah's day.
I nowhere found it written that the soul of any unsaved person "sleeps"; it is written - as far as I could see - of only the righteous dead, that they "sleep" in their graves or "sleep" in death. Like Lazarus, for example. “He who has the Son has Life.” The lost do not have the Son or Life. Only an alive soul “sleeps” according to Jesus Christ’s estimation and definition AND POWER.
(Ecc. 12:7) "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
Stranger
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
That spirit wasn't a person or an intelligent being inside the flesh who was a person. The person known as Adam, died. So if you're saying the spirit that returns to God is a person with all the memories and feelings and thoughts that made Adam a person, you're wrong, that person died. If you believe the scriptures are saying Adam still lives, that he actually didn't die, then you're saying God is a liar because you're saying the person known as Adam still lives, but that's not true Adam is dead.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Just for the record, I believe that at that point Adam and Eve had no 'covering'.
In other words, they didn't have what we might consider a 'Body' as of yet.
They were Soul and Spirit only.
Why do I believe this?
Here...
Genesis 3:7
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons"
The term 'Naked' means they had no Covering or Body (Tabernacle) as of yet...
2 Corinthians 5:2
"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven"
See that?
Look...
2 Corinthians 5:3-4
"If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked"
"For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life"
Thus, Adam and Eve were trying to 'Cover' their Soul and Spirit with Fig Leaves. Instead, God clothed them with 'Skins'...
Genesis 3:21
"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them"
Not animal skins, but the flesh we have now. It was at that point that Adam and Eve were now Body, Soul and Spirit.
Speaking of making a 'Covering' or 'Body' out of leaves...
Revelation 22:2
"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations"
Hmm, interesting Base but, I don't buy that theory. I believe the very first animal sacrifice was in the garden when God made those skins. I think God would have made Adam kill the animal (who used to be his friend) used for the skins. If God "formed" man from the ground, would He not have formed a "body"...which includes all of our organs and skin is the largest organ on the human body.
I have heard your take on this before and have looked into it but, I keep coming back to the skins being the first animal sacrifice. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yes, the spirit, the person, returns to God.
(Ecc. 12:7) "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
Death is separation. Not annihilation. Physical death is separation of the body from the spirit/soul. Spiritual death is separation of the spirit from God. Adam died immediately spiritually and physically. His spirit was immediately separated from God. His body was now dying.
Adam does still live with God in Heaven.
Stranger
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Well the scriptures tell us that there's going to be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous
Then you're calling The True God a liar. God told Adam he would die if he ate the forbidden fruit. Adam was a person when The True God told him that. Adam died spiritually that very day he ate of the forbidden fruit and literally died when he grew old and died of old age. Adam isn't in Heaven with God. You telling people that, means you're spreading lies about the truth concerning God and his word. When God inspired what people call the New Testament to be written a lot of things were written down that God's Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ said. One of the things Jesus said is that no one had gone into Heaven before him so that's scriptural proof that Adam wasn't in Heaven when that was written and Adam isn't in Heaven today. The spirit the scriptures talk about concerning men and animals are not persons inside fleshy bodies. Animals are not persons for one thing, and the spirit that's in man is the same spirit that's in animals.
No. I believe God. (Ecc. 12:7) "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
I said Adam did die when he ate the fruit spiritually. And death now was working in his body until the day he physically died. I explained to you what death is.
When you say 'Jesus said', you need to give the verse. (John 3:13) "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." At that time no man had ascended into heaven as they were located in the place of Abraham's bosom. (Luke 16:19-31) After the resurrection of Christ they were then taken to heaven. (Eph. 4:8) "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
Stranger
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I disagree. Abraham's bosom is to be taken symbolically, not literally. If you take Abraham's bosom literally, then you're saying the person who we know as Adam is still living and like I said, if someone believes Adam is still living, they're calling God a liar. The scriptures show that before Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living person, this person didn't exist before God did this act. So when God told Adam, after Adam sinned, dust you are and dust you will return. Then that means Adam went back into non-existence, since Adam didn't exist as a living person before God took dust and formed the dust into a human body and blowing the breath of life into the human body. The spirit as I said that man has is the same spirit that's in animals. If you're saying the spirit that God gave man is a person, then you're saying this person was in existence before God took the dust from the ground and forming the dust into a human body. I don't believe this person we know as Adam was in existence as a living person before God took dust formed the dust into a human body and blew the breath of life into that body. That's when I believe the person we know as Adam became a living person, not before.
It is so simple. God formed man's form or body from clay from the earth then breathed into his dead clay nostrils AIR from the air of the atmosphere thus - with breathing air into him - God gave that body of clay AND breath now, LIFE WITHOUT MENTIONING BECAUSE GOD DID IT. Then it is Written that that man of a body ultimately from earth, air AND DIVINE ACTION, WILL AND POWER, "became an alive, living, SOUL". It is not written the clay became a living spirit or the breath or body of breathed-in air became a living soul, or that the form of all the substances became a living robot of clay and water and oxygen or of some derived and improved materials, but it is Written this unique something that before never existed, "became a living SOUL" THE CREATION AND OBJECT OF GOD'S LOVE AND DESIRE AND, ETERNAL DESIGN. Without the latter Divine 'component(s)' it would never have been Written what is Written --- nothing!
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No, Abraham's bosom was a literal place just as Abraham was a literal man.
Yes, Adam is alive in heaven.
I am saying the spirit goes back to God who gave it. just as (Ecc. 12:7) says.
Stranger
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
BOSOM POSITION:
In an illustration, Jesus spoke of a beggar named Lazarus who was carried at his death to “the bosom position of Abraham,” and John refers to Jesus as being in “the bosom position with the Father.” (Lu 16:22, 23; Joh 1:18) The expression “bosom position” alludes to one’s reclining in front of another person on the same couch at a meal.
Guests reclined on their left side with a pillow supporting their left elbow, leaving the right arm free. Usually three persons occupied each couch, but there could be as many as five. The head of each one would be on or near the breast, or bosom, as it were, of the person behind him. The person with no one at his back was considered in the highest position and the one next to him in the second place of honor. In view of the nearness of the guests to one another, it was the custom that friend be placed next to friend, which made it rather easy to engage in confidential conversation if desired. To be in such a bosom position of another at a banquet was indeed to occupy a special place of favor with that one. So the apostle John, whom Jesus dearly loved, “was reclining in front of Jesus’ bosom,” and in such a position he “leaned back upon the breast of Jesus” and privately asked him a question at the celebration of the last Passover.—Joh 13:23, 25; 21:20.
For these reasons John, in describing the very special position of favor enjoyed by Jesus, said that he was in “the bosom position” of his Father Jehovah. Likewise, in Jesus’ illustration, Lazarus was carried to “the bosom position” of Abraham, denoting that this beggar finally came into a position of special favor with one who was his superior.
In an illustration, Jesus spoke of a beggar named Lazarus who was carried at his death to “the bosom position of Abraham,” and John refers to Jesus as being in “the bosom position with the Father.” (Lu 16:22, 23; Joh 1:18) The expression “bosom position” alludes to one’s reclining in front of another person on the same couch at a meal.
Guests reclined on their left side with a pillow supporting their left elbow, leaving the right arm free. Usually three persons occupied each couch, but there could be as many as five. The head of each one would be on or near the breast, or bosom, as it were, of the person behind him. The person with no one at his back was considered in the highest position and the one next to him in the second place of honor. In view of the nearness of the guests to one another, it was the custom that friend be placed next to friend, which made it rather easy to engage in confidential conversation if desired. To be in such a bosom position of another at a banquet was indeed to occupy a special place of favor with that one. So the apostle John, whom Jesus dearly loved, “was reclining in front of Jesus’ bosom,” and in such a position he “leaned back upon the breast of Jesus” and privately asked him a question at the celebration of the last Passover.—Joh 13:23, 25; 21:20.
For these reasons John, in describing the very special position of favor enjoyed by Jesus, said that he was in “the bosom position” of his Father Jehovah. Likewise, in Jesus’ illustration, Lazarus was carried to “the bosom position” of Abraham, denoting that this beggar finally came into a position of special favor with one who was his superior.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 4:8 isn't speaking of Jesus taking any resurrected person with him to heaven.
When Paul used the expression “gifts in men,” he was quoting King David, who had said of Jehovah: “You have ascended on high; you have carried away captives; you have taken gifts in the form of men.” (Psalm 68:18) After the Israelites had been in the Promised Land for some years, Jehovah figuratively “ascended” Mount Zion and made Jerusalem the capital of the kingdom of Israel with David as its king. But who were the “gifts in the form of men”? They were men taken captive during the conquest of the land. Some of these captives were later made available to the Levites to help with the work at the tabernacle.—Ezra 8:20.
In his letter to the Ephesians, Paul indicates that the psalmist’s words have a greater fulfillment in the Christian congregation. Paraphrasing Psalm 68:18, Paul writes: “Now to each one of us undeserved kindness was given according to how the Christ measured out the free gift. Wherefore he says: ‘When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts in men.’” (Ephesians 4:7, 8) Paul here applies this psalm to Jesus as God’s representative. Jesus “conquered the world” by his faithful course. (John 16:33) He also triumphed over death and over Satan by reason of God’s resurrecting him from the dead. (Acts 2:24; Hebrews 2:14) In 33 C.E., the resurrected Jesus ascended “far above all the heavens”—higher than all other heavenly creatures. (Ephesians 4:9, 10;Philippians 2:9-11) As a conqueror, Jesus took “captives” from the enemy. How so?
When on earth, Jesus demonstrated his power over Satan by delivering those held in bondage to the demons. It was as if Jesus invaded Satan’s house, bound him, and seized his goods. (Matthew 12:22-29) Just think, once resurrected and entrusted with ‘all authority in heaven and on earth,’ what plundering Jesus could then do! (Matthew 28:18) Starting at Pentecost 33 C.E., the ascended Jesus, as God’s representative, began despoiling Satan’s house by ‘carrying away captives’—men who had long been in slavery to sin and death and under Satan’s control. These “captives” willingly became “Christ’s slaves, doing the will of God whole-souled.” (Ephesians 6:6) Jesus, in effect, wrenched them from Satan’s control and, on Jehovah’s behalf, gave them to the congregation as “gifts in men.”
(Ecc. 12:7) "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
Stranger
ScottA
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Biblically speaking, that is, as Jesus referred to Lazarus as sleeping, this life in the flesh, this is that soul sleep. With actual death, whether in body or spirit, one sleeps no longer, but awakes to God.
The misunderstanding comes from assuming that to live in the flesh, is anything more than sleep. It is not. It is for this reason that one must be born again of the spirit of God.
The misunderstanding comes from assuming that to live in the flesh, is anything more than sleep. It is not. It is for this reason that one must be born again of the spirit of God.
Correct. Sleep is simply a metaphor for death, since the corpse at the time of burial gives the appearance of sleeping. But the moment a human being dies, his or her soul and spirit DEPART FROM THE BODY. And there are only two destinations: (1) for the believer to be immediately with Christ and (2) for unbelievers to be immediately in Hades, with other unbelievers.
In neither place is anyone sleeping. They are wide awake, and those in Hades are literally in torment (as was the Rich Man who went to Hades (not Hell). In Heaven, the souls and spirits of the saints are alive, awake, and very much aware. Hence they are called "a cloud of witnesses" in Scripture.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO ONE SLEEPING SIX FEET UNDER. Those who believe this nonsense should go and check out some graveyards. Just be sure to dig deeper and check out if anyone is hibernating.
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