The verse above clearly shows three separate entities.
Not sure why this is even a debate.
Soul Sleep
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Not sure why this is even a debate.
Hey Nancy,
I have a question for you and the others here...
Why would the Saved need to eat 'Healing Fruit' if they already have their Glorified Bodies?
Revelation 22:2
"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations"
Are their bodies not quite 'incorruptible' as the Bible claims?
Or...
Do the saved finally receive their Glorified Bodies the moment they eat the Healing Fruit?
If the answer is Yes to the second question, then what bodies do the Saved have before New Jerusalem shows up?
Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
I seriously doubt it, however, revelation does speak of saints that are in heaven apart from the resurrection event spoken of.
Now some may mistake this to mean that we really do go to heaven at death by default. This mainly comes from the misunderstanding of what it means to be risen into heaven, or how exactly it happens. With Jesus, we can know for certain how it happens. When Jesus died, he didn't magically get sent to heaven, nor was his spirit "with God" for three days. The only time Jesus got sent to heaven was when he was raised from the dead, bodily, because the spirit does not exist separate from the body, because the union of both is what makes you a soul, its what makes you who and what you are. If God wants you in heaven, he'll send you, it doesn't happen just because you are a saint, its entirely up to God.
You see, the means by which someone gets sent to heaven has been clearly defined for us. People just refuse to see it, and would rather believe in this weird idea of the spirit being separated from the body at death. They make the Bible harder to understand than it really is.
The Bible makes it very clear that we gain immortality at the resurrection, so the tree of life isn't for us, its for the nations, those whose names were found in the book of life at the great white throne judgement. To claim that it is for us makes Jesus a liar when he says that he is the "life". If he is claiming to be the "life", yet I still need to fetch leaves off a tree, then it makes his resurrection a lie. He compares the "glorified body" to the immortality of angels. So I can't help but conclude that he was lying his ass off if I still need leaves off some tree.
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Not yet. They are called "the spirits of just men made perfect".
HEBREWS 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and [1] to an innumerable company of angels,
23 [2] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and [3] to God the Judge of all, and [4] to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And [5] to Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant, and [6] to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Hi Base,
Ah yes, the "leaves for the healing" He also wipes away every tear..."...for the old order of things has passed away.” Could it be that maybe this is just where He gives us "new bodies"? We come broken and bruised and He restores us?
"Why would the Saved need to eat 'Healing Fruit' if they already have their Glorified Bodies?" Maybe our bodies will still need that kind of fuel. Maybe we will just be returning back to the GOE? I don't think that says our new bodies will be mortal necessarily but...I honestly do not know. Maybe this is all in the millennial reign.
Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
Hi Base,
Ah yes, the "leaves for the healing" He also wipes away every tear..."...for the old order of things has passed away.” Could it be that maybe this is just where He gives us "new bodies"? We come broken and bruised and He restores us?
"Why would the Saved need to eat 'Healing Fruit' if they already have their Glorified Bodies?" Maybe our bodies will still need that kind of fuel. Maybe we will just be returning back to the GOE? I don't think that says our new bodies will be mortal necessarily but...I honestly do not know. Maybe this is all in the millennial reign.
Let us reason:
The inference that's meant to be seen with this is that since the second death has no power over the saints, then it means the first death has already been conquered, since the second death doesn't just kill the spirit, but the body as well.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
Yet Christs spirit didn't when he died, neither did Davids according to peter in Acts 2. Thats beside the point anyway. This is supposed to be about the actual resurrection event and when it happens. If John says the resurrection conquers the second death, and the second death kills the body and spirit, then it means the saints at that point won't be walking around "broken" and "bruised", otherwise, Jesus is a liar when he claimed the first resurrection transforms the body to the similitude of an angel.
Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
SOUL
The traditional rendering of the Hebrew word
neʹphesh and the Greek word psy·kheʹ. In examining the way these terms are used in the Bible, it becomes evident that they basically refer to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal has. (Ge 1:20; 2:7; Nu 31:28; 1Pe 3:20; ) In contrast to the way that the term “soul” is used in many religious contexts, the Bible shows that both neʹphesh and psy·kheʹ, in connection with earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.
Earth’s First Souls:
The initial occurrences of neʹphesh are found at Genesis 1:20-23. On the fifth creative “day” God said: “‘Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls [neʹphesh] and let flying creatures fly over the earth . . .’ And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul [neʹphesh] that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind.” Similarly on the sixth creative “day” neʹphesh is applied to the “domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth” as “living souls.”—Ge 1:24.
After man’s creation, God’s instruction to him again used the term neʹphesh with regard to the animal creation, “everything moving upon the earth in which there is life as a soul [literally, in which there is living soul (neʹphesh)].” (Ge 1:30) Other examples of animals being so designated are found at Genesis 2:19; 9:10-16; Leviticus 11:10, 46; 24:18; Numbers 31:28; Ezekiel 47:9. Notably, the Christian Greek Scriptures coincide in applying the Greek psy·kheʹ to animals, as at Revelation 8:9; 16:3, where it is used of creatures in the sea.
Thus, the Scriptures clearly show that neʹphesh and psy·kheʹ are used to designate the animal creation lower than man. The same terms apply to man.
The Human Soul. Precisely the same Hebrew phrase used of the animal creation, namely, neʹphesh chai·yahʹ (living soul), is applied to Adam, when, after God formed man out of dust from the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, “the man came to be a living soul.” (Ge 2:7) Man was distinct from the animal creation, but that distinction was not because he was a neʹphesh (soul) and they were not. Rather, the record shows that it was because man alone was created “in God’s image.” (Ge 1:26, 27) He was created with moral qualities like those of God, with power and wisdom far superior to the animals; hence he could have in subjection all the lower forms of creature life. (Ge 1:26, 28) Man’s organism was more complex, as well as more versatile, than that of the animals. (Compare 1Co 15:39.)
It is true that the account says that ‘God proceeded to blow into the man’s nostrils the breath [form of nesha·mahʹ] of life,’ whereas this is not stated in the account of the animal creation. Clearly, however, the account of the creation of man is much more detailed than that of the creation of animals. Moreover, Genesis 7:21-23, in describing the Flood’s destruction of “all flesh” outside the ark, lists the animal creatures along with mankind and says: “Everything in which the breath [form of nesha·mahʹ] of the force of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.” Obviously, the breath of life of the animal creatures also originally came from the Creator, Jehovah God.
So, too, the “spirit” (Heb., ruʹach; Gr., pneuʹma), or life-force, of man is not distinct from the life-force in animals, as is shown by Ecclesiastes 3:19-21, which states that “they all have but one spirit [weruʹach].”
Soul—A Living Creature. As stated, man “came to be a living soul”; hence man was a soul, he did not have a soul as something immaterial, invisible, and intangible residing inside him. The apostle Paul shows that the Christian teaching did not differ from the earlier Hebrew teaching, for he quotes Genesis 2:7 in saying: “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul [psy·khenʹ zoʹsan].’ . . . The first man is out of the earth and made of dust.”—1Co 15:45-47.
The Genesis account shows that a living soul results from the combination of the earthly body with the breath of life. The expression “breath of the force of life [literally, breath of the spirit, or active force (ruʹach), of life]” (Ge 7:22) indicates that it is by breathing air (with its oxygen) that the life-force, or “spirit,” in all creatures, man and animals, is sustained. This life-force is found in every cell of the creature’s body.
The traditional rendering of the Hebrew word
neʹphesh and the Greek word psy·kheʹ. In examining the way these terms are used in the Bible, it becomes evident that they basically refer to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal has. (Ge 1:20; 2:7; Nu 31:28; 1Pe 3:20; ) In contrast to the way that the term “soul” is used in many religious contexts, the Bible shows that both neʹphesh and psy·kheʹ, in connection with earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.
Earth’s First Souls:
The initial occurrences of neʹphesh are found at Genesis 1:20-23. On the fifth creative “day” God said: “‘Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls [neʹphesh] and let flying creatures fly over the earth . . .’ And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul [neʹphesh] that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind.” Similarly on the sixth creative “day” neʹphesh is applied to the “domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth” as “living souls.”—Ge 1:24.
After man’s creation, God’s instruction to him again used the term neʹphesh with regard to the animal creation, “everything moving upon the earth in which there is life as a soul [literally, in which there is living soul (neʹphesh)].” (Ge 1:30) Other examples of animals being so designated are found at Genesis 2:19; 9:10-16; Leviticus 11:10, 46; 24:18; Numbers 31:28; Ezekiel 47:9. Notably, the Christian Greek Scriptures coincide in applying the Greek psy·kheʹ to animals, as at Revelation 8:9; 16:3, where it is used of creatures in the sea.
Thus, the Scriptures clearly show that neʹphesh and psy·kheʹ are used to designate the animal creation lower than man. The same terms apply to man.
The Human Soul. Precisely the same Hebrew phrase used of the animal creation, namely, neʹphesh chai·yahʹ (living soul), is applied to Adam, when, after God formed man out of dust from the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, “the man came to be a living soul.” (Ge 2:7) Man was distinct from the animal creation, but that distinction was not because he was a neʹphesh (soul) and they were not. Rather, the record shows that it was because man alone was created “in God’s image.” (Ge 1:26, 27) He was created with moral qualities like those of God, with power and wisdom far superior to the animals; hence he could have in subjection all the lower forms of creature life. (Ge 1:26, 28) Man’s organism was more complex, as well as more versatile, than that of the animals. (Compare 1Co 15:39.)
It is true that the account says that ‘God proceeded to blow into the man’s nostrils the breath [form of nesha·mahʹ] of life,’ whereas this is not stated in the account of the animal creation. Clearly, however, the account of the creation of man is much more detailed than that of the creation of animals. Moreover, Genesis 7:21-23, in describing the Flood’s destruction of “all flesh” outside the ark, lists the animal creatures along with mankind and says: “Everything in which the breath [form of nesha·mahʹ] of the force of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.” Obviously, the breath of life of the animal creatures also originally came from the Creator, Jehovah God.
So, too, the “spirit” (Heb., ruʹach; Gr., pneuʹma), or life-force, of man is not distinct from the life-force in animals, as is shown by Ecclesiastes 3:19-21, which states that “they all have but one spirit [weruʹach].”
Soul—A Living Creature. As stated, man “came to be a living soul”; hence man was a soul, he did not have a soul as something immaterial, invisible, and intangible residing inside him. The apostle Paul shows that the Christian teaching did not differ from the earlier Hebrew teaching, for he quotes Genesis 2:7 in saying: “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul [psy·khenʹ zoʹsan].’ . . . The first man is out of the earth and made of dust.”—1Co 15:45-47.
The Genesis account shows that a living soul results from the combination of the earthly body with the breath of life. The expression “breath of the force of life [literally, breath of the spirit, or active force (ruʹach), of life]” (Ge 7:22) indicates that it is by breathing air (with its oxygen) that the life-force, or “spirit,” in all creatures, man and animals, is sustained. This life-force is found in every cell of the creature’s body.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I disagree with what you're saying here. You're really stretching things.
King Solomon wrote that “the dead know nothing at all.” The dead cannot love or hate, and “there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave.” ( Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.) And at Psalm 146:4, the Bible tells us that when someone dies, “his thoughts” die and Psalm 146:4 doesn't use the phrase, "know nothing", so I disagree with what you're saying here.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Right before Jesus took His last breath, did He not say "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.". Did He lie about that? I'm sorry, but I'm not totally up on all of this resurrection stuff. In my mind, the soul is different from the body as I always believed that we are a soul, so, forgive me for not being as up on the subject as most others.
The book of (Ecclesiastes) is all about life under the sun. The vanity of life on earth. The phrase 'the dead know nothing' speaks to life on this earth only. (Ecc. 9:9) "Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun."
Later Solomon even declares that man's spirit goes back to God at death. (Ecc. 12:7) "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
There is no soul sleep. Sleep speaks only to the body.
Stranger
Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
Actually, I see what you are saying, since it is prophesied that his body would never see corruption, it imply's that his death was meant to be special. However, this wasn't the case for anyone else. That's why Peter brought up Davids rotting body still being in the grave even well after Jesus resurrected in Acts 2 as an example. When he said David never ascended to heaven, I take that to include his spirit. Again, according to Genesis 2, the soul is defined as the union of the body with the spirit. So when Jesus gave up the spirit, he was clinically dead. You aren't considered a "living soul" in disunity, and we know heaven is not the realm of the dead but of the living.
I don't think we should be basing our entire theology concerning how spirits work based just on the last words of Jesus. When taking scripture in its entirety, I came to the conclusion that its more complex than that. When Jesus was born into this world, Paul says he took on the form of humanity, instead of his pre-incarnate form, making him a lower form than even the angels. In other words, his spirit became bound to the body, making him a living soul just like God made us from the beginning. Even though it says he "commended his spirit", it doesn't mean he was actually alive in heaven as he was before he was born. If he was actually "alive", I'd reckon that would make the so called resurrection itself a lie.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Yes, you do have a point here concerning "the soul is defined as the union of the body with the spirit." As, the body did not become a living soul until God breathed into his nostrils.
7 "And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
And agreed, it is complex.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I disagree with how you view Ecclesiastes because Solomon who God used to write Ecclesiastes never would write anything that claimed that person's don't die, but instead some part of the person doesn't die but continues to exist. Solomon knew that those who have died can't speak or laugh or think because they were dead.
Just for the record, I believe that at that point Adam and Eve had no 'covering'.
In other words, they didn't have what we might consider a 'Body' as of yet.
They were Soul and Spirit only.
Why do I believe this?
Here...
Genesis 3:7
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons"
The term 'Naked' means they had no Covering or Body (Tabernacle) as of yet...
2 Corinthians 5:2
"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven"
See that?
Look...
2 Corinthians 5:3-4
"If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked"
"For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life"
Thus, Adam and Eve were trying to 'Cover' their Soul and Spirit with Fig Leaves. Instead, God clothed them with 'Skins'...
Genesis 3:21
"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them"
Not animal skins, but the flesh we have now. It was at that point that Adam and Eve were now Body, Soul and Spirit.
Speaking of making a 'Covering' or 'Body' out of leaves...
Revelation 22:2
"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations"
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