Soul vs SPIRIT

[JBO]

The terms "dead" and "alive" have been used in passages such as Genesis 20:1-7 and by Paul in the same sense. In Genesis 20:3, God warns Abimelech that he is "a dead man" if he doesn't release Sarah, Abraham's wife. Similarly, in verse 7, God warns Abimelech that he and his people shall surely die if they don't comply. Paul also uses these terms to describe his conversion experience in Romans chapter 7.

Romans 7:7-12

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.​

Paul isn't speaking about literal death here. He has employed the terms "dead" and "alive" in a figurative sense to indicate his status with regard to eternal life. Before he came to understand the sin of coveting he was "alive" with respect to the Law and God's promise of life. But once he understood the profound significance of the sin of coveting, he "died" and was no longer "alive" with respect to the law. This kind of language points back to God's promise to Israel that if they kept the law, they would live long and prosper in the land of promise. He was "dead" with respect to God's promise of life.

In that passage, Paul is speaking about the literal death of the spirit. He is describing the separation of his spirit from God. Paul, in that passage, has just denied the doctrine of Original Sin. At a very young age, he had no knowledge of the law nor the consequences of disobedience. Before he sinned he was alive spiritually. When the law came, i.e., when he learned of the law and its consequences and he disobeyed, he died spiritually.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I don't agree with the interpretations of those passages.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes there is such a thing as “ spiritual death”...only you don’t understand what it means..therefore you are not in a position to say such a thing....

I just hope my post above helps you understand it better...that’s if it’s Gods will....I’m quite surprised to be honest, that you say such a thing.

I was alienated from God as a non believer..only I never knew such a thing...not until God brought my spirit Alive in his, by Spirit gives birth to spirit...Born of God......an incredible act from God....when he brings our spirit out of the worlds darkness and sin....then transfers us into his light, by the Holy Spirit....


I thank God that I only listen to the Spirit of God and not mans/ woman’s words, as they are full of errors...including my own no doubt....but, until God shows me my errors and we all are in error at times...only then can we hear his voice, which penetrates our heart...until that time...I will carry on in the Spirit..

Nothing spiritual is dead.

 

[JBO]

Nothing spiritual is dead.

Paul saidin Eph 2:1, And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

What do you think he meant?

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is a terrible distortion of the truth presented in that verse. The meaning is simple and straightforward for anyone not disoriented through false doctrines.

I also agree that the meaning is simple and straightforward. But I think you are actually saying that your interpretation is familiar to you, which you interpret as "simple and straightforward."

Are you seriously suggesting that Ephesians 2:1 is speaking about persons being physically dead?

No, I seriously suggest that Ephesians 2:1 is about being condemned to death. I argue that Paul often speaks about death in terms of being condemned to death. Consider the first verse of Romans chapter 8 (my favorite verse in the Bible)

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Those who live in sin are condemned to death. Paul says those in Christ are no longer condemned.

Another gross distortion.

Take another look. Notice two different prepositions: 1)by and 2) through. They don't mean the same thing in that context. We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith.

Now why does this matter? The underlying question is "What does man contribute to his salvation?" Some of those who believe that man contributes something to his salvation, affirm the doctrine of "Prevenient Grace."

• Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept that refers to the grace of God in a person's life that precedes and prepares for conversion. It is the idea that God's grace enables people to respond to him despite being dead in their trespasses and sins.
• Prevenient grace was developed by Jacob Arminius and John Wesley as a way to reconcile the tension between God's sovereignty and human free will. It allows believers to exercise the free will God has given them.
• Prevenient grace is different from sanctifying grace, which is the grace that God gives to a person after they are saved. Sanctifying grace helps the believer to become more and more like Jesus.
• Prevenient grace is also called preceding grace or enabling grace.

The Doctrine of Prevenient Grace attempts to uphold human free will, but it disregards God's free will. According to Paul, those whom God is saving are referred to as "the elect". Therefore, if God chooses to save a person, that person will be saved and nothing can prevent it. This means that human freedom is not the deciding factor in salvation; rather, it is solely determined by God's choice.

Thus, salvation is by grace through faith. That is, faith is evidence of being saved, not a condition of being saved. Faith is a fruit of the spirit as Paul says. (Galatians 5:22)

Yes, faith indeed involves trust in the object of that faith. However, faith involves mental assent of something that is not known absolutely or cannot be proven existentially.

I disagree. That definition is an atheistic spin on faith, not consistent with the Biblical view. The Biblical defintion of faith is NOT belief without proof or certainty.

John 1:1 tells us that "In the beginning was the Christ, and the Christ was with God, and the Christ was God." Jesus being God in the flesh knew absolutely and existentially the fact of God and God's Word. There was nothing of the sort described and defined by Hebrews 11:1 in Jesus' knowledge of God. He neither had nor needed faith in God. He was God, the Son.

Jesus was also a man.

Hebrews 11:1 most definitely defines faith. In the rest of the chapter, the author demonstrated, through the the results of the faith of each person spoken of, what he meant by the definition he gave in that first verse.

I disagree with that interpretation. Paul isn't focused on the results of acting in faith. Even the verse you quoted concludes that faith was the proof of God's approval.

 

[CadyandZoe]

In that passage, Paul is speaking about the literal death of the spirit. He is describing the separation of his spirit from God. Paul, in that passage, has just denied the doctrine of Original Sin. At a very young age, he had no knowledge of the law nor the consequences of disobedience. Before he sinned he was alive spiritually. When the law came, i.e., when he learned of the law and its consequences and he disobeyed, he died spiritually.

No. The spirit is not dead. If the spirit dies, the person dies.

People often think of the tripartite being as three separate parts, but they are not separate. To illustrate this, let's consider a mousetrap. A mousetrap has several parts, and if one part is missing, it ceases to catch mice and therefore it ceases to be a mousetrap. Similarly, a human being has three parts - body, spirit, and soul - and if one part is missing, it ceases to be a human being. If the body dies, the person is dead. If the spirit dies, the person is dead. If the soul dies, the person is dead. And dead is dead.

 

[Ritajanice]

No. The spirit is not dead. If the spirit dies, the person dies.

No one said “ our spirit “ is dead...but ,it is alienated from God, is it not..it is void of Gods Spirit....therefore we are dead in our trespasses and sin?..until we are Born of God?.....Born Again by the Spirit of God..

Spirit gives birth to spirit ?


His Spirit brings our spirit Alive...that is what his word says...he doesn’t recognise us as non believers, we are children of wrath.....we must be Born Again for God to recognise us as his children
..as without the Spirit we are none of his.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paul saidin Eph 2:1, And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

What do you think he meant?

Is Paul suggesting that those who are living in sin are missing vital mental or spiritual capacity? I am cognizant of the argument that some Christians make with regard to the "corrupted nature", which is incapable of doing anything good, including believing in God or believing the gospel. And Ephesians 2:1 is a proof text of that argument.

I disagree with that line of argument because in that chapter, Paul is not referring to a lack of spiritual or mental capacity. Instead, being dead in sins refers to the state of being condemned to eternal damnation.

Subsequent verses bear this out.

Ephesians 2:4-6

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus . . .​

Made us alive, raised us up, seated us with him, are different ways to describe the same thing, which is a change in our status with respect to the eternal. The phrase "heavenly places" is an adjective, which is literally translated "heavenlies". The word "heavenly" refer to something that is indestructible and can never perish. Jesus pointed this out when he said,

Matthew 6:19-21

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

In other words, heaven is a place where things never break, rust, degrade, dissolve, get ruined, get stolen, or get lost. Everything there has an eternal quality. In this context, "dead" indicates "destined to pass away out of existence" and "alive" means destined to be given an eternal quality.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No one said “ our spirit “ is dead...but ,it is alienated from God, is it not..it is void of Gods Spirit....therefore we are dead in our trespasses and sin?..until we are Born of God?.....Born Again by the Spirit of God..

Spirit gives birth to spirit ?


His Spirit brings our spirit Alive...that is what his word says...he doesn’t recognise us as non believers, we are children of wrath.....we must be Born Again for God to recognise us as his children
..as without the Spirit we are none of his.

Okay, let's think about this a moment. We can find a precident for something similar in Jesus' parable of the prodigal son. Luke 15:11-32. You might recall that the Elder son complained when the Father killed the fatted calf. The Father explained . . .

And he said to him, ‘Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours. But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.’”​

Here, the term "dead" is used figuratively to indicate separation. Could it be possible that Paul was referring to being separated from God in a similar way as the young son was separated from his father? During the period of separation, the father referred to his son as "dead," but upon his return, he declared that his son had "begun to live." This use of the term "dead" seems to align with the idea of being separated from God.

Why did the father consider the prodigal son to be "dead"? That's a good question. I think I understand the answer based on the suicide death of one of my friends. When my friend committed suicide I felt all kinds of emotions all at the same time. I felt sad, and depressed and heartbroken. But the most lingering emotion after all these years is my feeling of anger. I was angry because after he was dead, he was out of my reach. I could no longer help him, console him, advise him, encourage him, or support him. He took all that away from me.

If the prodigal son died, he would be out of his father's reach. His father would no longer be able to counsel him, help him, pass on his wisdom or discipline him. The same was true when his son moved away. With regard to his ability to have a direct influence on his son's life, his son might as well have been dead. But when his son returned, he was given a second chance to influence the boy and help guide him forward in life. The son was "alive" in that sense.

When Paul talks about being dead in our trespasses, is he talking about being separated from God? Certainly, we are alienated from God, so the Bible talks about making peace with God. But unlike the prodigal son, who was apart from his father's influence during his absence, no one is truly apart from God's influence. We can never be absent from God; he is always able and willing to influence us. Being dead in our sins doesn't mean that we are separated from God like the prodigal son was separated from his father.

 

[Ritajanice]

Okay, let's think about this a moment. We can find a precident for something similar in Jesus' parable of the prodigal son. Luke 15:11-32. You might recall that the Elder son complained when the Father killed the fatted calf. The Father explained . . .

And he said to him, ‘Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours. But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.’”​

Here, the term "dead" is used figuratively to indicate separation. Could it be possible that Paul was referring to being separated from God in a similar way as the young son was separated from his father? During the period of separation, the father referred to his son as "dead," but upon his return, he declared that his son had "begun to live." This use of the term "dead" seems to align with the idea of being separated from God.

Why did the father consider the prodigal son to be "dead"? That's a good question. I think I understand the answer based on the suicide death of one of my friends. When my friend committed suicide I felt all kinds of emotions all at the same time. I felt sad, and depressed and heartbroken. But the most lingering emotion after all these years is my feeling of anger. I was angry because after he was dead, he was out of my reach. I could no longer help him, console him, advise him, encourage him, or support him. He took all that away from me.

If the prodigal son died, he would be out of his father's reach. His father would no longer be able to counsel him, help him, pass on his wisdom or discipline him. The same was true when his son moved away. With regard to his ability to have a direct influence on his son's life, his son might as well have been dead. But when his son returned, he was given a second chance to influence the boy and help guide him forward in life. The son was "alive" in that sense.

When Paul talks about being dead in our trespasses, is he talking about being separated from God? Certainly, we are alienated from God, so the Bible talks about making peace with God. But unlike the prodigal son, who was apart from his father's influence during his absence, no one is truly apart from God's influence. We can never be absent from God; he is always able and willing to influence us. Being dead in our sins doesn't mean that we are separated from God like the prodigal son was separated from his father.

I will have to give this some time and thought and ask God to lead me through it..via his Spirit...I’m busy tonight, hope to get back to you tomorrow...that’s if it’s Gods will.

 

[JBO]

I disagree. That definition is an atheistic spin on faith, not consistent with the Biblical view. The Biblical defintion of faith is NOT belief without proof or certainty.

You can disagree all you want. But the truth is that the definition of faith is ABSOLUTELY belief without proof or certainty. You don't even have proof or certainty that God exists. And that is precisely the essence of God's word. Had God wanted to provide proof and certainty of His existence He could have done that easily, but He didn't. His objective was to assemble a people who would love Him and believe in Him.

Paul, in speaking of believing in God, began with Abraham. He said, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom 4:3). Counted unto him for righteousness means that God declared Abraham to be righteous. That is what justification means. Justification means that God forgave his sins. That in part constitutes salvation. It was Abraham's faith that God counted to Abraham for salvation.

I disagree with that interpretation. Paul isn't focused on the results of acting in faith. Even the verse you quoted concludes that faith was the proof of God's approval.

Nonsense. Faith is the basis of God's approval. Paul said in Romans 4:20-24:

"No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, "

So just as Abraham's faith was counted to him for salvation, our faith is also counted to us for salvation. That is what it means that salvation is through faith.

And with that I will leave this discussion. The problem with discussing soteriology with Calvinists is exactly as you have demonstrated. You don't even speak the same language. Calvinists have a soteriological jargon quite apart from scripture. That of course is necessary for alignment with the erroneous and heretical doctrine of Total Depravity.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You can disagree all you want. But the truth is that the definition of faith is ABSOLUTELY belief without proof or certainty.

Again, that might be the modern dictionary definition of the word. But that is not the Biblical meaning of the word.

You don't even have proof or certainty that God exists.

Yes we do have proof of God's existence. Paul wrote,

Romans 1:18-23

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.​

​

I know about the four philosophical proofs for God's existence. But in this passage, Paul asks the reader to walk outside and look up at the night sky. That's all the proof we need.

Biblical faith is not another way of knowing.

And that is precisely the essence of God's word. Had God wanted to provide proof and certainty of His existence He could have done that easily, but He didn't. His objective was to assemble a people who would love Him and believe in Him.

Many people today have the mistaken belief that 100% certainty is necessary to believe something. Critics often demand mathematical or scientific proof in order to accept an argument. Unfortunately, some modern theologians have responded to this by proposing that spiritual truth can only be known through a special type of knowledge called "faith". However, this is not a biblical response to skepticism and it can sound ridiculous to others. Christians should not dismiss scientific knowledge in favor of faith, but instead recognize that both can coexist and complement each other. Faith is not the enemy of reason. Rather, fantasy is.

Bible students often refer to Thomas, known by Theologians as "doubting Thomas" as an example of "belief" apart from knowing. But such theologians need to understand what Jesus actually meant.

John 20:28-29

Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”​

Thomas asked for an eyewitness demonstration that the Lord was still alive. But Thomas didn't ask for anything different than what the other apostles got. Peter and John both ran to the tomb. Jesus isn't saying that one needs access to a special kind of knowing in order to accept the fact that God raised him from the dead. Nothing of the sort. Thomas relied on empirical knowledge in order to accept the resurrection. Jesus is blessing those who won't have empirical knowledge. Christians living today can't put their fingers into Jesus' side or feel his hands. But they accept the resurrection on the basis of eyewitness testimony. Atheist skeptics have no rational basis on which to reject apostolic witness. Otherwise they would be compelled to reject the eyewitness testimony in a murder trial. Eye witness testimony isn't a supernatural means of knowing and it is just as rational as empirical knowledge.

Paul, in speaking of believing in God, began with Abraham. He said, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom 4:3). Counted unto him for righteousness means that God declared Abraham to be righteous. That is what justification means. Justification means that God forgave his sins. That in part constitutes salvation. It was Abraham's faith that God counted to Abraham for salvation.

Yes, in the case of Abraham, what was unseen, i.e. justification, was made evident when God declared it to be so. The point is, Paul is not defining faith as believing truth claims apart from proof. Paul is NOT defining faith at all, and he is definitely not suggesting that faith is a strong belief in something or someone, especially without logical proof or evidence. On the contrary, Paul takes us to the OT in order to prove his assertion that whenever God voiced his approval, he was approving men and women who acted on their conviction that God was able and willing to keep his promises. There is no Biblical evidence to suggest that their convictions were unfounded.

Dogmatism is a virtue in a religious context, but not a virtue in the Bible. The Bible commends faith, not dogmatism. A little faith or a lack of faith is synonymous with a little knowledge about God or a lack of knowledge about God.

Nonsense. Faith is the basis of God's approval.

Paul doesn't say that faith is the basis of God's approval. He says that faith is the evidence of God's approval. There is a difference.

Paul said in Romans 4:20-24:

"No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, "

So just as Abraham's faith was counted to him for salvation, our faith is also counted to us for salvation. That is what it means that salvation is through faith.

I disagree. You have a really bad translation. Ask yourself this. Was God giving Abraham what he deserved? Did Abraham merit God's justification by placing confidence in God's promises? Paul would say no, because otherwise it wouldn't be on the basis of Grace. This is why Paul says that we are saved "by" grace "through" faith. The reason why we are being saved is God's grace. Faith is the process where by God makes his salvation manifest. If we must supply faith in order to be saved then God would be unjust not to give us salvation and faith would become a wage.

And with that I will leave this discussion. The problem with discussing soteriology with Calvinists is exactly as you have demonstrated. You don't even speak the same language. Calvinists have a soteriological jargon quite apart from scripture. That of course is necessary for alignment with the erroneous and heretical doctrine of Total Depravity.

Too bad. In case you want to know, my name is not Rumpelstiltskin.

 

[JBO]

Too bad. In case you want to know, my name is not Rumpelstiltskin.

Did someone call you Rumpelstiltskin?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Did someone call you Rumpelstiltskin?

Have you never heard the children's folk tale? I think of it every time someone calls me a Calvinist, thinking that naming something or someone will control it or make it go away.

 

[rwb]

Yes, I would agree with most of that. The truth that they knew was a truth that is available by observation of creation.

Paul says, they did not honor God or given thanks to Him.


No, that is no quite right. It is not the will that is restored; it is spiritual life that is restored.

You would have one believe, i.e., have faith, after they have been regenerated. But God says that it is they who believe, i.e., have faith, that are regenerated. Paul says in Ephesians 2:1,5 that "you were dead in the trespasses and sins "; but God, "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- " That is the description of the condition of the spirit; once dead in trespasses and sins but now alive.

He then in verse 8 says that this was done by grace through faith. Similar descriptions as this are given in several passages in the NT. One I particularly like is the description given in Colossians 2: 11-13. Paul says there, "In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, "

Notice specifically what is said there. That is a description of regeneration. The spirit, once dead in trespasses and sins, is now made alive by forgiving all the trespasses. It is called there a circumcision made without hands. Paul says this was all accomplished through faith. That is important, because it shows without question that it is first faith then regeneration, not vice-versa as you proclaim.

I agree with much of what you've said here, but a question comes to mind. From where can faith to believe Christ for eternal life come from for those who are "dead in trespasses and sins"?

 

[rwb]

No. The spirit is not dead. If the spirit dies, the person dies.

People often think of the tripartite being as three separate parts, but they are not separate. To illustrate this, let's consider a mousetrap. A mousetrap has several parts, and if one part is missing, it ceases to catch mice and therefore it ceases to be a mousetrap. Similarly, a human being has three parts - body, spirit, and soul - and if one part is missing, it ceases to be a human being. If the body dies, the person is dead. If the spirit dies, the person is dead. If the soul dies, the person is dead. And dead is dead.

It's not simply a question of being dead, it's a question of what it means to be dead in trespasses and sins. That is vastly different than simply being ordained to physical death. How is "you" (all of us) "who were dead in trespasses and sins" dead, yet made alive (quickened) through Christ's Holy Spirit? Through new birth from above when our spirit is made alive through the Spirit of Christ.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

I would argue that being dead in trespasses and sins is to be unable to hear His Word without first possessing life through His Spirit. As Ritajanice has repeatedly said, we must be born again of His Spirit, which is to be made spiritually alive for those who before were dead (spiritually) in trespasses and sins.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It's not simply a question of being dead, it's a question of what it means to be dead in trespasses and sins. That is vastly different than simply being ordained to physical death. How is "you" (all of us) "who were dead in trespasses and sins" dead, yet made alive (quickened) through Christ's Holy Spirit? Through new birth from above when our spirit is made alive through the Spirit of Christ.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

I would argue that being dead in trespasses and sins is to be unable to hear His Word without first possessing life through His Spirit. As Ritajanice has repeatedly said, we must be born again of His Spirit, which is to be made spiritually alive for those who before were dead (spiritually) in trespasses and sins.

In my view, "dead" means "condemned to die" in that context.

 

[JBO]

It's not simply a question of being dead, it's a question of what it means to be dead in trespasses and sins. That is vastly different than simply being ordained to physical death. How is "you" (all of us) "who were dead in trespasses and sins" dead, yet made alive (quickened) through Christ's Holy Spirit? Through new birth from above when our spirit is made alive through the Spirit of Christ.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

I would argue that being dead in trespasses and sins is to be unable to hear His Word without first possessing life through His Spirit. As Ritajanice has repeatedly said, we must be born again of His Spirit, which is to be made spiritually alive for those who before were dead (spiritually) in trespasses and sins.

Colossians 2:11-13 says "In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,"

Notice a couple of things there. It says "you were dead in through trespasses,,," it then says, "God made you alive together with him..." that is the description of regeneration, of being born again. I would hope no one would deny that. It also says that it occurred by "having been buried with him in baptism". I would also hope no one would deny that. I would argue that is water baptism, but I do expect some to deny that, even though foolish to do so. But the point I really want to make here is that all of this is described as happening through faith in God. That says, to me at least, that regeneration happens through faith in God. That is proof positive that faith comes before regeneration. I would thus argue that regeneration, which happens in God's act of salvation, is by grace through faith in (water) baptism.

 

[JBO]

I agree with much of what you've said here, but a question comes to mind. From where can faith to believe Christ for eternal life come from for those who are "dead in trespasses and sins"?

Again with that nonsensical expression "faith to believe". To have faith in God is to believe in God.

 

[rwb]

Again with that nonsensical expression "faith to believe". To have faith in God is to believe in God.

Not exactly! Faith comes as the gift of salvation which is by grace through faith! Faith to believe Christ is not something mankind in unbelief possesses, which is why we must be born again.