Speaking in tongues is NOT a gift
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Exactly. What Paul means in 1 Corinthians 14 is when to use the Mark 16:17 individual tongues that has no law to be interpreted; and the 1 Cor. 12 one that is for ministry and must be interpreted always. In other words it 1 Cor. 14 shows the difference and when one should be used over the other one. In church, only the 1 Cor. 12 diverse kinds of tongues should be used. This gift is only given to those with that office from Jesus, whereas all believers have the prayer and praise language of Mark 16.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Very sorry, got your post and Rich's mixed up.
He said "120 people in the upper room is a bit dubious..." I was pointing out that the houses over there would have been big enough to have 120 meeting together with no need to be in the temple.
I think it fair to say Paul was very much a Christian. Verses 22 & 23 sure seem to say Paul had two natures, one spiritual and another flesh, warring within.
And why would God tell us to put off the old and put on the new if all we had was the new?
Eph 4:22-24,
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
We are also told that when Jesus returns he will change our vile bodies to be fashioned like his new body.23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Phil 3:21,
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
I trust you don't think Christians never sin. Assuming I'm right about that, would you think it is the Christ in us that sins or the old flesh nature which we still very much possess? I would say the old flesh nature sins, given the new nature is God's workmanship (Eph 2:10), not our own.
The Gospels are still OT and deal with the Jews. Jesus told the women who wanted healing that he only came for Israel (Matt 15;24). At that time the Gentiles were still without God and without hope (Eph 2:12). Given that the Gospels took place before Pentecost, there was as yet no Church of the body.
It is important to keep in mind when and to whom God spoke. He spoke much differently to different people in different times and we must be careful not to mix them up.
Where do you see that only those receive tongues from Jesus?
Jim B
Well-Known Member
You need to read Romans 8! In Romans 7, Paul describes the struggle he had (and we all had) before he became a believer.
Rom 7:25,
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
This summary of Romans 7 shows Paul, very much born again, nonetheless struggled with the old nature.
I think it unfathomable that born again folks need not worry about sinning. Indeed, unfathomable is an understatement. It is an absolute truth that being born again does not mean we no longer sin. John had much to say about that in his first epistle.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
The verse you cited is the definition of an unsaved person: in their mind they (hopefully) want to obey God's law, but their sinful nature wants to do the opposite.
Your writing that this summary of Romans 7 shows Paul, very much born again, nonetheless struggled with the old nature, is absolutely wrong. Paul is describing how he felt before he was born again. It is ridiculous to think that Paul, after being born again, would struggle with his old sin nature. Romans 6:11, "So you too, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."
Romans 7:21-25, "I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully agree with the law of God in the inner person, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, the law which is in my body’s parts. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Then comes Romans 8!!! Romans 8:1-8, "Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I never have had anyone call me thin skinned! LOL Walrus hide? Sure but thin skinned never. I use sarcasm as a foil of humor, but also to help people look at what they are doing as well or writing.
Well as I did not start with a jibe at you that is irrelavent. I started by posting the verses that show Paul called tongues a manifested gift
. You keep refusing to acknowledge that ( and no saying everything is a gift is a non-answer, answer and you know that). everything Paul listed here in corinth. and in Eph.4 are all designed to be manifestations of the spirit working in the church. YOu are overreading into the text.
well if you kept my statement in its proper context you wouldn't answer so silly. we were not talking about anyof these ! But you need to get over the fact that Paul called tongues a gift and simply accept the facxt.
Well, if you don't struggle with sin, if you automatically walk in accord with the spirit, I wish I were you!
But, as my mom used to say, "If wishes were horses, beggars would be writing." I think you actually struggle with the old sin nature as much as Paul struggled with it. Better to say, I know you struggle with sin, and it doesn't come when you walk by the spirit, but when you walk by the flesh. Why in the world would God tell us over and over to walk by the spirit if that's all we could do?
Those not born again have no choice. They walk by the flesh because that's all they have. Christians on the other hand, have been baptized in holy spirit and therefore have two natures, one flesh and the other spirit. Unlike the non-Christian, we have a choice to walk by the flesh or by the spirit. It is free will. God doesn't force us to do the right thing anymore than He did before we got born again. It's just that now we have the ability to walk, not by the flesh, but by the spirit. But it is absolutely our choice. Unfortunately, sometimes we choose the flesh over the spirit. Paul was not immune from that and hence the encouragement of Romans 7. He wanted to let us all know that we are not the only ones who struggle, that it is now available to walk by the spirit if we so choose. In his first Epistle, John also tells us that we will sin. We don't sin because of the spirit but because of flesh which we now have and will have until Jesus returns and gives us a body fashioned like unto his glorious body (Phil 3:21).
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I usually get called on the carpet for using sarcasm in these forums, so I thought that was the custom. Now I know we can use it. Good. I think it can be an effective tool of grammar when used correctly. I'm not sure saying someone is thin skinned is simply sarcasm, but I'll take your word for it.
Where did Paul call tongues a "manifested gift?" I don't see it precisely because I don't over read into the text,
I think I more of less just quoted scripture. I never took scripture to be "silly."
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Really? are you going to strain at that gnat? Tongues is a manifestation! Meaning it is visible! tongues is a gift- given by the Spirit as He wishes to whom He wishes. that makes it a manifested gift! Do you really not understand that or are you being obtuse?
I just can't get past 1 Cor 12:7-10 where tongues is called a manifestation. I still don't see it called a manifested gift.
Are you being obtuse because you don't see it the way I do? Why am I obtuse but you're not? Could it not be we just see it in different ways? And why am I the one lacking understanding? Is it also because I don't see it your way? Why aren't you the one lacking understanding because you don't see it the way I do?
See why all this accusation slinging is pointless? Let's drop it and stick with the scriptures. We'll all find out where we were right and where we were wrong when Jesus comes back. Let him be the judge of who's misunderstanding what.
As far as God giving it to whom He wishes, why would He say He would have all speak in tongues in 1 Cor 14:5 if He only meant for some to speak in tongues? I see that as God wanting all Christians to speak in tongues. Now I know Corinthians says not all speak in tongues, but that is only speaking to the obvious and in no way negates God's will that we all would speak in tongues. It's simply saying that not all Christians follow God's will on that score.
If you want, check out a new post, "Pentecost - the upper room or temple?" in the Bible Study Forum.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Rich, look at Romans 7 again. verses 5-6 are key verses to the rest of the chapter.
5 For when we were in the flesh (past tense), the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But NOW we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that now we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
With this in mind, Paul is quick to defend the law of God mentioning "coveting" from the Ten Commandments, that the law is holy. But there was a problem. they were hard to keep because of sin in our nature producing a death sentence.
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
The solution to the problem of being "in the flesh" which means having a carnal nature that loves to sin:
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
The solution to the law concludes in the next chapter 8:1-10
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rich, do you see the change? Romans 7:14-25 is before Christ when we were in the flesh and under the law of sin and death! Jesus made us free from sin, Romans 6:6-7)
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. (This is talking about our NATURE on the inside being reborn, not our outside body. Paul doesn't want any confusion between the two and think our body is now immortal. No! It still has to die. And so he continues
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. What is reborn is our spirit and soul - IOW our mind and heart- our nature. NOT OUR BODY.
The spirit and soul dies and gets reborn Romans 6:6-7 belowe. Our body still must die, and then it can also put on immortality.
Romans 6:6-7 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
1 John 3:5-9 (Jesus takes away the sin nature completely, but we still have the pure human nature of free will that Adam was created with before he sinned.)
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (This sin John is talking about is from verse 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. The major sins of the Ten Commandments. Some call those 'mortal' sins.)
Do I understand you to say that you no longer have flesh and therefore never sin?Rich, look at Romans 7 again. verses 5-6 are key verses to the rest of the chapter.
5 For when we were in the flesh (past tense), the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But NOW we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that now we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
With this in mind, Paul is quick to defend the law of God mentioning "coveting" from the Ten Commandments, that the law is holy. But there was a problem. they were hard to keep because of sin in our nature producing a death sentence.
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
The solution to the problem of being "in the flesh" which means having a carnal nature that loves to sin:
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
The solution to the law concludes in the next chapter 8:1-10
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rich, do you see the change? Romans 7:14-25 is before Christ when we were in the flesh and under the law of sin and death! Jesus made us free from sin, Romans 6:6-7)
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. (This is talking about our NATURE on the inside being reborn, not our outside body. Paul doesn't want any confusion between the two and think our body is now immortal. No! It still has to die. And so he continues
What is reborn is our spirit and soul - IOW our mind and heart- our nature. NOT OUR BODY.
The spirit and soul dies and gets reborn Romans 6:6-7 belowe. Our body still must die, and then it can also put on immortality.
Romans 6:6-7 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
1 John 3:5-9 (Jesus takes away the sin nature completely, but we still have the pure human nature of free will that Adam was created with before he sinned.)
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (This sin John is talking about is from verse 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. The major sins of the Ten Commandments. Some call those 'mortal' sins.)
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Rich, there are still fake Christians out there that don't know how to receive the prerequisite to being saved. It is more than believing in Jesus, we must repent from our sin nature and acknowledge that we cannot be without sin on our own in order to receive the Spirit of Christ, otherwise we do not belong to Him just like Matthew 7:21-23 says. So Paul is speaking to all of us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, Philippians 2:12.
Yes, our body must still die like I said in my last post. Romans 8:10 The post became too long and I was afraid you wouldn't read it all. Please don't pass over anything in that post because it is important to see what is actually being written by the apostles.
A true Christian does not have two natures of sin and divine. We only have two natures of pure human that Adam was created with before he sinned to make free will choices, and the divine. 2 Peter 1:2-4. The heavy burden of the desire to sin is gone, so also reckon yourself dead to sin and it is much easier to maintain your freedom from sin. 1 John 5:18. Keep yourself pure. You have an unburdened human nature now and can choose righteousness. Do not go back to resurrecting the old sinful flesh, because there are warnings.
2 Peter 2:
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
I assume you are talking about the office of diverse kinds of tongues and interpretation of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:30. Not everyone receives the higher gifts of tongues or interpretation or both, but all believers receive the lesser sign of speaking in tongues without interpretation needed.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Tell me what you think it says. Do you believe it? First read the whole post. It answers this question.
You are confusing our body with "flesh." It is our body and our nature (when our nature is carnal Paul calls that "flesh." Our nature changes. Our body hasn't.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
The Jews received the gospels first. Jesus preached the New Covenant to them. That was different from the Old Covenant and why the Pharisees hated Him. When they finally rejected Jesus, then Peter saw a vision of the unclean meat (Leviticus 20:25-26) being cleansed so the gospel could now go to them and they are grafted into Israel's tree whose roots are Jesus.
Well, as far as I can tell, your are claiming to be free from sin. I have to think I misunderstand you on that score, but I'm not 100% sure you are in fact claiming to be free from sin in the flesh.
Galatians goes to great lengths to tell born again Christians they are walking after the flesh. God tells them to walk after the spirit. If I understand you correctly, God is wasting His breath here. Why would He have to exhort us to walk by the spirit it that's all we could do anyway?
It'd be a stretch to say 1 John was not written to Christians. And yet John tells us we are liars if we say we don't sin.
I did read your post carefully about Romans 7. I think you are assuming that the whole chapter is about the unsaved. But that is not the case. Part of it is, but much of it is Paul talking about his current state of being saved.
Rom 7:25,
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
I don't see how this could be taken as meaning Paul used to walk by his flesh and the law of sin, but no longer does. The word "serves" is present tense. Paul is saying that his flesh sins. So does yours. So does mine. So does all Christian's.
Why would God tell us over and over to renew our mind, to put off the old and put on the new if all we had was the new? Like Jesus, we have to make moment by moment decisions to follow God or not. Having spirit, as did both Jesus and us, does not mean we have to walk by that spirit. Both Jesus and ourselves have the choice of walking by the spirit or walking by the flesh. With Jesus being the one exception, we all walk by the flesh from time to time by our own free will decisions. I must admit to being a bit surprised that apparently many Christians are under the impression that they can't sin. It just seems so basic to me.
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