Speaking in tongues is NOT a gift

[Rich R]

The Jews received the gospels first. Jesus preached the New Covenant to them. That was different from the Old Covenant and why the Pharisees hated Him. When they finally rejected Jesus, then Peter saw a vision of the unclean meat (Leviticus 20:25-26) being cleansed so the gospel could now go to them and they are grafted into Israel's tree whose roots are Jesus.

Jesus never said one word about the New Testament. Despite the big red letters that say "New Testament of our Lord" on an otherwise blank page in front of Matthew, the New Testament didn't begin until Pentecost. Nobody in the gospels was born again. The new birth was not available until Pentecost. If the NT and new birth were available when Jesus was here, why did he have to die?

Peter's vision occurred after Pentecost. prior to that, the Gentiles were flat out of luck.

Eph 2:11-12,

11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:​

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Galatians goes to great lengths to tell born again Christians they are walking after the flesh.

Somehow you missed what was going on in Galatia. Just as Romans 7 is about the problems in walking after the law because of their unregenerated flesh/carnal nature, the Galatians were first free from the law and therefore the flesh and walking in the Spirit. But THEN they were visited by Christian Jews who told them, NO, you must also keep the old law TOO and be circumcised. That was false. Going back to the law is going back to having a carnal flesh. That is all a misunderstanding of what is written.

Rich, the way I teach people to study the Bible is to not read out of context. That is what you've been doing. Sit down and read a whole book. Not even just one chapter. The context is the whole book. Then these questions will all be answered and the confusion stops. But first, lay down ALL denominational teachings, because today most of them have been tainted. Like the teaching we will always sin. That is a slap in the face to Jesus, and therefore a doctrine of demons. If you still feel drawn to sin, like I was for the first 30 years of going to church and just receiving their denominational doctrines, and as God to cleanse you of all falsehoods and to reteach you HIS INTERPRETATION of every verse, every chapter, and every book.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Jesus never said one word about the New Testament. Despite the big red letters that say "New Testament of our Lord" on an otherwise blank page in front of Matthew, the New Testament didn't begin until Pentecost. Nobody in the gospels was born again. The new birth was not available until Pentecost. If the NT and new birth were available when Jesus was here, why did he have to die?

Peter's vision occurred after Pentecost. prior to that, the Gentiles were flat out of luck.

Eph 2:11-12,

11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:​

Testament means Covenant. The New Covenant was prophesied in the Old Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Ezekiel 36:22-29
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.

 

[Rich R]

Somehow you missed what was going on in Galatia. Just as Romans 7 is about the problems in walking after the law because of their unregenerated flesh/carnal nature, the Galatians were first free from the law and therefore the flesh and walking in the Spirit. But THEN they were visited by Christian Jews who told them, NO, you must also keep the old law TOO. That was false. Going back to the law is going back to having a carnal flesh. That is all a misunderstanding of what is written.

Rich, the way I teach people to study the Bible is to not read out of context. That is what you've been doing. Sit down and read a whole book. Not even just one chapter. The context is the whole book. Then these questions will all be answered and the confusion stops. But first, lay down ALL denominational teachings, because today most of them have been tainted. Like the teaching we will always sin. That is a slap in the face to Jesus, and therefore a doctrine of demons. If you still feel drawn to sin, like I was for the first 30 years of going to church and just receiving their denominational doctrines, and as God to cleanse you of all falsehoods and to reteach you HIS INTERPRETATION of every verse, every chapter, and every book.

So now I'm afraid I do understand you claim you never sin. That is at variance with many verses, including 1 John 1:18.

1 John 1:8,

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
​

As you read that aloud, keep in mind that "we have" is present tense. It's not talking about the past. If you say that right now you have no sin...well, read the last 2 parts of 1 John 1:8 and draw your own conclusion. I can tell your right now, I will never confess that I'm without sin, so you can put to rest any thought you have of changing my mind on that score. I understand I'm not likely to change yours either, so we may as well move on to the next discussion. We'll undoubtedly talk again; just about something else.

I do appreciate it that you stick with the scriptures as you understand them and refrain from hurling insults in place of substance. You are somewhat of a rare bird on the account!

 

[Jim B]

Somehow you missed what was going on in Galatia. Just as Romans 7 is about the problems in walking after the law because of their unregenerated flesh/carnal nature, the Galatians were first free from the law and therefore the flesh and walking in the Spirit. But THEN they were visited by Christian Jews who told them, NO, you must also keep the old law TOO. That was false. Going back to the law is going back to having a carnal flesh. That is all a misunderstanding of what is written.

Rich, the way I teach people to study the Bible is to not read out of context. That is what you've been doing. Sit down and read a whole book. Not even just one chapter. The context is the whole book. Then these questions will all be answered and the confusion stops. But first, lay down ALL denominational teachings, because today most of them have been tainted. Like the teaching we will always sin. That is a slap in the face to Jesus, and therefore a doctrine of demons. If you still feel drawn to sin, like I was for the first 30 years of going to church and just receiving their denominational doctrines, and as God to cleanse you of all falsehoods and to reteach you HIS INTERPRETATION of every verse, every chapter, and every book.

I agreed with you up to a point, but then you wrote "But first, lay down ALL denominational teachings, because today most of them have been tainted. Like the teaching we will always sin. That is a slap in the face to Jesus, and therefore a doctrine of demons."

a) So the entire established body of Christ is wrong, but you alone are right? Really? What flaw in your personality has you convinced that the denominations are all misled, but you alone know the truth?

b) We will always sin. 1 John 1:8-10, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

You are sinning by claiming that you don't sin!!! That is a slap in the face to Jesus, and therefore a doctrine of demons.

 

[Rich R]

Testament means Covenant. The New Covenant was prophesied in the Old Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Ezekiel 36:22-29
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.

All these verses are talking about Revelation, when Jesus establishes the physical kingdom that God promised Israel. We are living in an age that nobody knew anything about until God revealed it to Paul.

Col 1:25-26,

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
​

"Now" is when Paul wrote this epistle, not when Jesus was here.

Eph 3:1-6,

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

There is a clear distinction between "then" and "now" here. There is much more in Paul's epistles about this secret (a much better translation of "musterion" than mystery; easy to verify). It's all over the place there.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So now I'm afraid I do understand you claim you never sin. That is at variance with many verses, including 1 John 1:18.

1 John 1:8,

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
​

As you read that aloud, keep in mind that "we have" is present tense. It's not talking about the past/ If you say that right now you have no sin...well, read the last 2 parts of 1 John 1:8 and draw your own conclusion. I can tell your right now, I will never confess that I'm without sin, so you can put to rest any thought you have of changing my mind on that score. I understand I'm not likely to change yours either, so we may as well move on to the next discussion. We'll undoubtedly talk again; just about something else.

I do appreciate it that you stick with the scriptures as you understand them and refrain from hurling insults in place of substance. You are somewhat of a rare bird on the account!

Rich, again you are taking 1 John 1:8 out of context, as are the majority of man's interpretations. But remember the context of the whole book. You will see similar verses in the second chapter.

1 John 2:
The Test of Knowing Him
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who SAYS, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who SAYS he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.

9 He who SAYS he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.


NOW go back and read 1 John 1 again and a light bulb will shine above your head and you will see something extraordinary. Clarification of the truth, not the lies from denominations. It doesn't matter that it is present tense, a Jew who keeps the law presently without Jesus, and has retained his sin nature can SAY they have no sin because they keep the Ten Commandments, but only the blood of Jesus in 1 John 1:9 actually makes them without sin.

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we SAY that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we SAY that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we SAY that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The point of both chapters is there is a huge difference in saying a thing, and walking the truth as we abide in Him and most importantly HE IN US, completely cleansed.

cc: @Jim B
Jim I see this post to Rich answers your question. Also read the rest of my teaching to Rich.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Look at the word I highlighted for you in red. If we are not born again NOW, we will die IN our sins. See how the devil loves what you believe. He doesn't care if you believe in Jesus, as long as you believe you are a sinner and keep sinning.

Romans 6: 1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

cc: @Jim B

 

[Carl Emerson]

The new birth was not available until Pentecost.

John 20
19 Now when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were together due to fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and *said to them, “Peace be to you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be to you; just as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

 

[1stCenturyLady]

John 20
19 Now when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were together due to fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and *said to them, “Peace be to you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be to you; just as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

For everyone but the apostles. Remember there are two fillings resulting in ministry. The apostles received the new birth in John 20. Then they received the power of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost for ministry. The 120 received the new birth and the manifestations of Mark 16:16-18 on the Day of Pentecost, and the second filling for ministry in Acts 4:29-31

29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

The new birth is always first for freedom from sin and thus, salvation. Not everyone is called into ministry.

cc: @Rich R; @Jim B

 

[JunChosen]

This summary of Romans 7 shows Paul, very much born again, nonetheless struggled with the old nature.
It is an absolute truth that being born again does not mean we no longer sin. John had much to say about that in his first epistle.

I know you have me on the "ignore list' but you can't stop me from making comments on anyone's posts. But the forums are for everyone whether ignored or not.

Finally, there is something I can agree with you on. I concur that Paul was already a child of God when he penned Romans 7, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
However, we are saved ONLY in our spirit essence [1 John 3:9], but the body still lusts after sin until it is raised on the last day, and we will forever be with the Lord. And, this I believe is the context of Romans 7 as Paul cried out: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death."

I just can't get past 1 Cor 12:7-10 where tongues is called a manifestation. I still don't see it called a manifested gift.

Just think this: if no gifts then there be no manifestations.

See why all this accusation slinging is pointless? Let's drop it and stick with the scriptures. We'll all find out where we were right and where we were wrong when Jesus comes back. Let him be the judge of who's misunderstanding what.

We know who are right, because He will only come back for His people.
John 14:3.

As far as God giving it to whom He wishes, why would He say He would have all speak in tongues in 1 Cor 14:5 if He only meant for some to speak in tongues? I see that as God wanting all Christians to speak in tongues.

Yes, all believers have the ability to speak the "tongues phenomenon" as you see it, but then you must read it in light of 1 Corinthians 14:23.

To God Be The Glory

 

[1stCenturyLady]

All these verses are talking about Revelation, when Jesus establishes the physical kingdom that God promised Israel. We are living in an age that nobody knew anything about until God revealed it to Paul.

Col 1:25-26,

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
​

"Now" is when Paul wrote this epistle, not when Jesus was here.

Eph 3:1-6,

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

There is a clear distinction between "then" and "now" here. There is much more in Paul's epistles about this secret (a much better translation of "musterion" than mystery; easy to verify). It's all over the place there.

The mystery is the Messiah of God is for all who receive the Spirit of God now including the Gentiles.

Paul talks about this already and it is for the New Covenant of the Spirit, not Revelation times. We don't have to wait for the second coming to receive God's Spirit. The New Covenant is called the ministry of the SPIRIT. 2 Cor. 3:6-11.

1 Corinthians 2:9-16
But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I agreed with you up to a point, but then you wrote "But first, lay down ALL denominational teachings, because today most of them have been tainted. Like the teaching we will always sin. That is a slap in the face to Jesus, and therefore a doctrine of demons."

a) So the entire established body of Christ is wrong, but you alone are right? Really? What flaw in your personality has you convinced that the denominations are all misled, but you alone know the truth?

b) We will always sin. 1 John 1:8-10, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

You are sinning by claiming that you don't sin!!! That is a slap in the face to Jesus, and therefore a doctrine of demons.

Read my posts to Rich and open your mind. How can 1 John 3:5 be true according to what you believe? Look for the key words such as "say" or "says" in 1 John 2 and 1 John chapter 1 in that order, and then go back and look at 1 John 1:8 and you will see there is a difference between talking the talk, and walking the walk. God bless you Jim.

5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

When your church tells you the opposite of God's word, it is time to leave and just study God's word and ask for clarity. James 1:5-6. That is the verse I stood on, and was miraculously blessed over a period of 10 years. It is amazing. I finally found a church that clones what I've found, and they too heard from God to not teach anything He hasn't taught them first. They and I teach the same thing from the same Teacher.

 

[Carl Emerson]

@Rich R

Regarding your OP...

δωρεὰν would seem to translate as "distributions" rather than "manifestations" and we know that this is as the Spirit wills.

However I hesitate to engage in a theological debate based on the various translations of one word.

Whatever God gives is a gift. This would seem to be the underpinning Truth.

1 Cor 12
10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

 

[Rich R]

John 20
19 Now when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were together due to fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and *said to them, “Peace be to you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be to you; just as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

If you're right, Jesus died for no reason. If we could get eternal life before he died, his death was pointless. It's never good to build an entire doctrine on one verse.

 

[Rich R]

Rich, again you are taking 1 John 1:8 out of context, as are the majority of man's interpretations. But remember the context of the whole book. You will see similar verses in the second chapter.

1 John 2:
The Test of Knowing Him
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who SAYS, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who SAYS he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.

9 He who SAYS he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.


NOW go back and read 1 John 1 again and a light bulb will shine above your head and you will see something extraordinary. Clarification of the truth, not the lies from denominations. It doesn't matter that it is present tense, a Jew who keeps the law presently without Jesus, and has retained his sin nature can SAY they have no sin because they keep the Ten Commandments, but only the blood of Jesus in 1 John 1:9 actually makes them without sin.

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we SAY that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we SAY that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we SAY that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The point of both chapters is there is a huge difference in saying a thing, and walking the truth as we abide in Him and most importantly HE IN US, completely cleansed.

cc: @Jim B
Jim I see this post to Rich answers your question. Also read the rest of my teaching to Rich.

We must keep in mind to whom God is talking. If what you say is true, given that every book in the NT tells the reader in some way or another to not sin, it must be understood that God only talked to sinners. Never said anything to born again folks. That's not right.

 

[Rich R]

The mystery is the Messiah of God is for all who receive the Spirit of God now including the Gentiles.

Paul talks about this already and it is for the New Covenant of the Spirit, not Revelation times. We don't have to wait for the second coming to receive God's Spirit. The New Covenant is called the ministry of the SPIRIT. 2 Cor. 3:6-11.

1 Corinthians 2:9-16
But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Rich R]

The mystery is the Messiah of God is for all who receive the Spirit of God now including the Gentiles.

Paul talks about this already and it is for the New Covenant of the Spirit, not Revelation times. We don't have to wait for the second coming to receive God's Spirit. The New Covenant is called the ministry of the SPIRIT. 2 Cor. 3:6-11.

1 Corinthians 2:9-16
But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

You probably wont' like to hear this, but all I can say is you are mixing up times and peoples.

Revelation is highly Jewish in character. Over and over again it refers to the OT. It is the fulfillment of the very physical kingdom God promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It has nothing to do with the church. You can investigate further or discard at your desire. I'm just telling you.

 

[Jim B]

You probably wont' like to hear this, but all I can say is you are mixing up times and peoples.

Revelation is highly Jewish in character. Over and over again it refers to the OT. It is the fulfillment of the very physical kingdom God promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It has nothing to do with the church. You can investigate further or discard at your desire. I'm just telling you.

Revelation has nothing to do with the church? How wrong can you be?

Revelation 1:3-6, "From John, to the seven churches that are in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from “he who is,” and who was, and who is still to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ—the faithful witness, the firstborn from among the dead, the ruler over the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and has set us free from our sins at the cost of his own blood and has appointed us as a kingdom, as priests serving his God and Father—to him be the glory and the power for ever and ever! Amen."

Revelation 1:10-11, " I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day when I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, saying: “Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches—to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”

Revelation 2 and 3 -- both chapters -- are addressed to the seven churches.

What you're telling us is completely wrong!

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Finally this has nothing to do with the OP: "speaking in tongues is not a gift"

 

[1stCenturyLady]

We must keep in mind to whom God is talking. If what you say is true, given that every book in the NT tells the reader in some way or another to not sin, it must be understood that God only talked to sinners. Never said anything to born again folks. That's not right.

The apostles were born again and God spoke to them. Otherwise the whole NT would just be their own opinions. The gospels were to the Jews, both unsaved and saved. Gentiles are grafted into Israel.