Speaking in tongues is NOT a gift

[Rich R]

Yes, Rich deserves a spanking for that. You do know I included him, not just you.

Someone told me to stop preaching. I pointed out where God says just the opposite. So telling me to stop preaching is a lie. It doesn't make the one who spoke those words the devil any any way shape of form. However, it does mean that what they said is something that the devil would say because he is the father of lies.

John 8:44,

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he (the devil - not Jim B or any other believer) speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
​

Is telling a Christian to stop preaching a lie or not? Does it agree with God or the devil?

 

[Rich R]

The critical phrase in your quote is "is come upon you"

You recall how John the Baptist was told how to recognise the coming Messiah?

He was told to watch for the One upon whom the Spirit would come upon and remain upon. All others were touched by the Spirit but not permanently.

So the Apostles were indwelled in John 20 and empowered when the Spirit came upon them at Pentecost.

Forgive me for belaboring the point, but Acts sure seems to say that power comes with holy spirit, not two different things, which I think is what you are saying.

Acts 1:5-8,

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.​

Again, why would Jesus tell them they will be baptized in holy spirit in the future ("you shall be baptized...") if they already were? And verse 8 sure seems to imply that once they get holy spirit, they will get the power. It also confirms the future, not the past baptism as does verse 5.

I don't know for sure, but I heard someone say that in John 20 Jesus was giving them instructions and a hint so they would know when the spirit came upon them. Both John and Acts talk about breathing. Like I said, I'm not sure of that but it sounds reasonable. I'm not so sure it's as reasonable to think they would get holy spirit but have to wait for the power at some future time. I think holy spirit is the very essence of power.

 

[Rich R]

Not everyone is taking the forums as a perfect opportunity to grow in the Spirit, and the fruit of the Spirit. Like self-control, brotherly kindness, and love. I'm nothing like the person I was when I first started posting on Christians sites. This is just one of many.

Well, there is the anonymity of the internet. It makes people say things they'd never say in person. Still, I'd think Christians (myself included) ought to be above all of that. Maybe it's expecting too much. In any case...I go a preaching! Thanks.

 

[Jim B]

I'm not fighting anyone. Read my post #434 to Jim B. That's my sincere feeling about him and everybody else here, yourself very much included. I'm just trying to talk scriptures. Multiple times now I've begged people to stop the pointless personal attacks and stick with the scriptures, unfortunately with limited, if any, success.

Again, you wrote in response to my post, "That sounds exactly like something the devil would say." That was comparing me to the devil. I would hardly compare that to your claim that you're "just trying to talk scriptures". Perhaps you didn't see that as a personal attack, but it clearly was. It was not sticking with Scriptures. You're trying to justify your behavior, but not successfully.

However, I forgave you earlier and think we should move on.

 

[JunChosen]

If you're right, Jesus died for no reason. If we could get eternal life before he died, his death was pointless. It's never good to build an entire doctrine on one verse.

Read and learn! "Jesus is the LAMB slain BEFORE the foundation of the world." Rev.13:8] i.e. that Christ died in eternity past. How did you think the OT believers were saved???

You're right it's never good to build an entire doctrine on a single verse or on opinions as you do!

QUOTE="Rich R, post: 1383296, member: 17876"]There were no born again Jews in the Gospels. If there were, why did Jesus bother to die? Apparently his death and resurrection was not necessary to get saved if folks could get saved before he died.[/QUOTE]

Since you do not study the Bible, your conclusions above is flawed. Again I say, the efficacy of the cross goes back all the way before the creation of the world.

I never asked anyone to believe anything.

Then what is your purpose in these forums teaching heresies? Do you honestly think people here will believe your lies? Aren't you the author of this OP and trying to mislead people from the truth and now have admitted that tongues is a gift?

There is nothing in the OP about me hoping anything, let alone that people would believe me. God gave us all the responsibility to preach the word. He gives the increase, not me. I speak; I've done my job. End of story.

You are correct, no one will believe anyone who teach heresies. Jesus said,
Why do you not understand my speech? even because you cannot hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him..." John 8:43-44.

So you think you have the word of truth, preach it, and you've done your job? However, He gave this great commission to His children only and not just to anyone.

My words may seem harsh but they are meant to turn you around and believe that Jesus is the Incarnate God, who died for the sins of His people and resurrected to prepare a place, and if He prepared a place for His people He will come again to bring them home.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Carl Emerson]

Forgive me for belaboring the point, but Acts sure seems to say that power comes with holy spirit, not two different things, which I think is what you are saying.

That is exactly what happened in the Life of Jesus.

Born with Spirit within.

Empowered upon later at Baptism.

The disciples were ministering in His Power when they were sent out but it was temporary.

The Baptism in the Spirit that empowers for ministry is permanent.

Before Pentecost, they were not already baptised in the Spirit, they were indwelled only.

You recall in Jer 32:40 that the promise of the New Covenant was about being indwelled by His presence.

This is the new birth that was only possible after the Cross and the first occurrence is John 20.

The reality is that after the Cross the power and authority to take a soul out of darkness and permanently transfer the person into the Kingdom of Light was established - this is what happens when we are born again when we are permanently indwelled by Him.

So clearly in the life of Jesus He was indwelled by the Holy Spirit at birth and later empowered at baptism.

Same for us...

 

[Rich R]

Again, you wrote in response to my post, "That sounds exactly like something the devil would say." That was comparing me to the devil.

No. I was not comparing you to the devil. I was comparing what you said to the devil. Huge difference.

Unless you think people never say the wrong thing, it must be conceded that sometimes we do. When would that be? When we say anything that is not what God said. That does not make any of us to actually be the devil. It just means sometimes we say things that the devil would say. We all do that sometimes. We are not perfect.

God told me to preach. My saying what God says, does not make me God. I'm just repeating what God said. You told me to stop preaching. Your saying what the devil says does not make you the devil. You just repeated something the devil would say. That's the truth and you ought to admit it, not to me, but to God. As 1 John 1:9 says, He is faithful and just to forgive you.

I don't see where I even need forgiveness for calling a spade a spade.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Someone told me to stop preaching. I pointed out where God says just the opposite. So telling me to stop preaching is a lie. It doesn't make the one who spoke those words the devil any any way shape of form. However, it does mean that what they said is something that the devil would say because he is the father of lies.

John 8:44,

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he (the devil - not Jim B or any other believer) speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
​

Is telling a Christian to stop preaching a lie or not? Does it agree with God or the devil?

Whatever it was about the devil and Jim B, you hurt his feelings, even if unintentionally. Matthew 6:14-15. But forgive each other.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Well, there is the anonymity of the internet. It makes people say things they'd never say in person. Still, I'd think Christians (myself included) ought to be above all of that. Maybe it's expecting too much. In any case...I go a preaching! Thanks.

And I go on teaching.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I don't see where I even need forgiveness for calling a spade a spade.

When feelings get hurt, there needs to be reconciliation and that comes through forgiveness. Read John 17 and see how Jesus want his Church to be one, totally united. We're not. So rethink your comment.

Good night Rich.

 

[Rich R]

When feelings get hurt, there needs to be reconciliation and that comes through forgiveness. Read John 17 and see how Jesus want his Church to be one, totally united. We're not. So rethink your comment.

Good night Rich.

While I appreciate your efforts in unification, I think they may be misplaced.

Here is a small sample of things Jim B said to me.

1. Then clearly you don't understand Scripture!
2. What compels you to be a "wise guy"?
3. Good, then stop preaching!!!
4. What flaw in your personality has you convinced that the denominations are all misled, but you alone know the truth?
5. How wrong can you be?

None of those might be hurtful? Well, I'm actually not hurt. I fully understand that I'm judged by God and not man (1 Cor 4:3), but other's may not be as secure in that truth.

But here's the real kicker:

6. That is a slap in the face to Jesus, and therefore a doctrine of demons.

Now you tell me how that last one is any different from me telling him that the devil would tell a Christian not to preach.

But there's actually a kicker to the kicker:

Here's what I said that provoked Jim B's response that I teach doctrine of demons:

"Galatians goes to great lengths to tell born again Christians they are walking after the flesh."
​

That is a doctrine of demons whereas telling someone to stop preaching is not? Perhaps consider directing your efforts towards Jim B.

Finally, I consider my post #434 as much of an apology as anything I can say.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

While I appreciate your efforts in unification, I think they may be misplaced.

Here is a small sample of things Jim B said to me.

1. Then clearly you don't understand Scripture!
2. What compels you to be a "wise guy"?
3. Good, then stop preaching!!!
4. What flaw in your personality has you convinced that the denominations are all misled, but you alone know the truth?
5. How wrong can you be?

None of those might be hurtful? Well, I'm actually not hurt. I fully understand that I'm judged by God and not man (1 Cor 4:3), but other's may not be as secure in that truth.

But here's the real kicker:

6. That is a slap in the face to Jesus, and therefore a doctrine of demons.

Now you tell me how that last one is any different from me telling him that the devil would tell a Christian not to preach.

But there's actually a kicker to the kicker:

Here's what I said that provoked Jim B's response that I teach doctrine of demons:

"Galatians goes to great lengths to tell born again Christians they are walking after the flesh."
​

That is a doctrine of demons whereas telling someone to stop preaching is not? Perhaps consider directing your efforts towards Jim B.

Finally, I consider my post #434 as much of an apology as anything I can say.

Now I see I've hurt YOUR feelings. I'm sorry. All I wanted was for you two to stop fighting and reconcile.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

6. That is a slap in the face to Jesus, and therefore a doctrine of demons.

That was is a statement of MINE about those who believe 1 John 1:8 is to Christians, just because it uses "we." The key word in the verse is SAYS, not WALKS. Verse 7 IS a true Christian because they WALK IN THE LIGHT. It is the same as verse 6. They are still walking in darkness, not the light of God, so are fake Christians. Matthew 7:21-23.

He responded to me and copied that portion. Maybe you thought he was responding to you. But those are MY words. I use them all the time to those who believe in 1 John 1:8 as a justification for Christians sinning.

 

[Rich R]

Now I see I've hurt YOUR feelings. I'm sorry. All I wanted was for you two to stop fighting and reconcile.

No, you did not hurt my feelings. Not a bit. As I said, I'll be judged by Jesus when the time comes.

Being a non-trinitarian and a monotheist (in the truest sense of the word as per 1 C0r 8:6, which leaves no room for anybody being God but the Father) for some 40 years now, I've been called plenty of lovely things by my brothers and sisters. I'm OK with that though. I love 'em all! Check out the big smile on my avatar.

But thank for you rsentiment. You are a very kind person and I thank God for your life and stand on Jesus, and that despite our doctrinal differences.

Speaking of those differences, I understand you to say that we do not sin. If that is right, why would any Christians have to forgive another for anything? I mean none of us can sin, right? And if we can't sin God wasted His breath in encouraging us to be one in John 17.

Thanks again for your life! You're wonderful! And that's not just my opinion, it's the truth!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Speaking of those differences, I understand you to say that we do not sin. If that is right, why would any Christians have to forgive another for anything? I mean none of us can sin, right? And if we can't sin God wasted His breath in encouraging us to be one in John 17.

There are two types of sins. A Christian is freed from the sins in the Ten Commandments. We cannot steal, we cannot murder or commit adultery. If those drives are still in us, then Jesus is not inside of us.

The other type of sins have to do with immature fruit of the Spirit. 1 John 5:16-17 shows the two types. Sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death. Now look at 2 Peter 1:5-9. This is how to grow in the fruit of the Spirit, and Peter is harsh with those who don't.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

 

[Rich R]

That was is a statement of MINE about those who believe 1 John 1:8 is to Christians, just because it uses "we." The key word in the verse is SAYS, not WALKS. Verse 7 IS a true Christian because they WALK IN THE LIGHT. It is the same as verse 6. They are still walking in darkness, not the light of God, so are fake Christians. Matthew 7:21-23.

He responded to me and copied that portion. Maybe you thought he was responding to you. But those are MY words. I use them all the time to those who believe in 1 John 1:8 as a justification for Christians sinning.

Got it. Still, it must be his sentiment also, else he would not have quoted it.

BTW, what's the difference between the "we" in verses 6, 7, & 8 in 1 John 1? Grammatically, I don't see the difference. I don't see where the subject of the pronoun changed between those verses. To whom does the "we" in verse 9 refer? In fact there is "we" in almost all of the verses in that chapter. Do they just flip back and forth in standing for believers and non-believers? If so, how can we tell which is which? Do we just go by the ones that fit our preconceived doctrine? I think these are important questions that need answers. You don't necessarily have to answer to me, but at least to yourself.

Love you sister!

 

[Rich R]

There are two types of sins. A Christian is freed from the sins in the Ten Commandments. We cannot steal, we cannot murder or commit adultery. If those drives are still in us, then Jesus is not inside of us.

The other type of sins have to do with immature fruit of the Spirit. 1 John 5:16-17 shows the two types. Sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death. Now look at 2 Peter 1:5-9. This is how to grow in the fruit of the Spirit, and Peter is harsh with those who don't.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Honestly, I don't know where you get those ideas in the scriptures. I mean, where does it talk about immature fruit?

Sin unto death, the proverbial "unforgivable" sin? Jesus said the Pharisees were of their father, the devil (John 8:44). In other words, he told them they were of the devil's seed. Seed is seed. Nobody can change who their father is (biological father to be precise). Those Pharisees were born of the devil's seed which makes them his child, hence any prayer for such an individual is fruitless. Read Gen 1 about seed.

Peter said we are born again, not of corruptible seed (like your earth father's seed, hence you will die), but of incorruptible seed. In other words we can't stop being God's children. We can certainly misbehave and disappoint Him, but we can't stop being His child.

Likewise, the Pharisees to whom Jesus spoke those words are children of the devil and have no chance of eternal life. I believe that is the "unforgivable" sin if we let the scriptures speak for themselves.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You should be able to see at least a half dozen times where I said everything we have from God is a gift, including the nine manifestations, of which tongues is one. Are you that prejudiced against me that you insist otherwise? Why not read what I say as it is written? Do you read the scriptures as written in the same prejudiced way? I hope not.

It was you who wrote that tongues was not a gift! I have no prejudice against you. that is you making presumptions that are wrong.

From your OP:

It may come as somewhat of a surprise to most Christians to learn that the scriptures never call tongues a gift. In every English and Greek version of the scriptures that I know of, tongues is unambiguously called a manifestation. A manifestation is not the same thing as a gift.

So stop the game playing!

I am done with you on this thread. YOu have acted less than honorably- Have your last word this is my last response.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Got it. Still, it must be his sentiment also, else he would not have quoted it.

BTW, what's the difference between the "we" in verses 6, 7, & 8 in 1 John 1? Grammatically, I don't see the difference. I don't see where the subject of the pronoun changed between those verses. To whom does the "we" in verse 9 refer? In fact there is "we" in almost all of the verses in that chapter. Do they just flip back and forth in standing for believers and non-believers? If so, how can we tell which is which? Do we just go by the ones that fit our preconceived doctrine? I think these are important questions that need answers. You don't necessarily have to answer to me, but at least to yourself.

Love you sister!

"We" all are human beings. John is preaching. Not to just Christians but to mankind. Don't forget how we come to faith, Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." He is writing to those with ears. But baby Christians, 1 John 2:1, who have come to Christ through being taught false doctrines still need to test themselves to see if they are true Christians and BELONG to Christ, and non Christians who are seeking Christ who died them also and Christ is their Advocate. John is teaching the difference in just talking and being indwelt by the Light and walking. Without the Spirit of Christ indwelling us, we do not belong to Christ. There are a lot of denominations this applies to with their easy false doctrines of just believe that Jesus is your ticket to heaven and when you willfully sin you will not be condemned.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Honestly, I don't know where you get those ideas in the scriptures. I mean, where does it talk about immature fruit?

I just showed you Rich. Did you not recognize the fruit of the Spirit in 2 Peter 1:5-7? Compare the steps in 5-7 with the list of the fruit of the Spirit in Galatian 5:22-23. The steps require maturing in those individual fruit of the Spirit. Verses 8 and 9 is Peter scolding anyone who does not grow in the Spirit to perfection. The previous chapter Peter quotes the words of Jesus to be holy as I am holy.

Sin unto death, the proverbial "unforgivable" sin?

John is not asking us to not pray for someone who does not believe in Jesus yet. That has been taught as the unforgivable sin - to reject Christ. No, John is saying the same thing as Paul said about born again Christians in Hebrews 10:26-31. It continues to the end of the chapter that a Christian can go all the way back to perdition, but those who keep abiding in Jesus never can. John is saying to help those who are immature in the fruit of the Spirit to grow so that they never stumble. 2 Peter 1:10-11.

Likewise, the Pharisees to whom Jesus spoke those words are children of the devil and have no chance of eternal life. I believe that is the "unforgivable" sin if we let the scriptures speak for themselves.

I don't think that none of those Pharisees present ever became a Christian. I don't think that is what it meant. There have been atheists that have come to Christ. Even Warlocks in witchcraft.