Speaking in tongues is NOT a gift

[1stCenturyLady]

Sorry. I disagree with your interpretation on the first half of Romans 7:25. Nobody who is a slave to sin is going to give thanks to Jesus Christ their Lord for delivering them from their body of death (Which is an answer from the question in verse 24). Only the second half of verse 25 is a final side note that on Paul’s own strength and power (without Jesus) is a slave to sin.

So again the first half of Romans 7:25 that gives thanks Jesus (for delivering them from this body of death) is a New Covenant way of thinking.
The second half of Romans 7:25 is Pharisee thinking (twisting the Old Law beyond what it was intended with one trying to obey God on their own power without the Lord).

It makes the chapter cohesive. First you have Romans 7:5-6 which is New Covenant, and NOT a slave to sin, so verse 24 is not out of place in this chapter, and the 25th verse is the conclusion of 14-23, 25, with a new start in Roman 8:1, or could continue right after verse 6. The "Therefore" of 8:1 points to verses 7:5-6.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter....Romans 8:1-9 THEREFORE...

Verse 24 shows the hope at the end of the Old Covenant - Jesus. But the final verse, 25, is the end of the LAW. Both covenants have a mind, but not the same mind. The first covenant had the mind of memorized Laws. The New Covenant has the mind of Christ. The mind in verse 25 is the same one in 14-23 and is not the mind of Christ, thus it is still about the Law, and fits with the second half. Two halves of a verse not relating to one another is just not correct exegesis.

 

[post]

@Bible Highlighter I really couldn't care less what humans you find and quote that agree with your eisegesis.

 

[post]

@both-of-you as previously stated I don't have the luxury of time presently to quote the entire Bible to you. For now I'd like to comment that you seem to me to take a very low view of holiness.

Which is to say, y'all think you are 'good' because you have either very little understanding of what true goodness is or you are intentionally dishonest in your own self evaluations. That's JMO.

So you both eisegete, and are prolifigating heresies that historically date to the 1890s centering around the nazarene movement & modern pelagian NAR junk.

It will be around the weekend hopefully before I will have any kind of opportunity to respond with any depth ((don't y'all have jobs or families?)) but I would like you to consider 2 things please meanwhile: pride is sin, and the body dies.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Bible Highlighter I really couldn't care less what humans you find and quote that agree with your eisegesis.

Most of the writing I provide on Romans 7 is my own writing. I only included a source quote for a small portion of the writing. The point here is that you are not really dealing with the text in what it says in context. Paul is clearly not referring to his experience as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24. This is obvious if you were to read Romans 6 through Romans 8. Romans 7:1 says Paul is referring to those who know the Law (i.e. the Old Law). Paul says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6). This sets the stage of his conversation to come in Romans 7:14-24. Then again, you take the sin and still be saved interpretation on Romans 7:14-24 not because of the context but because you simply like the idea that you can sin and still be saved. That’s easier. But that is the wide gate path that many are on. There are many warnings in Scripture to even believers that those who sin will not make it into God’s Kingdom.

The other source quotes of your claim that you are a sinner present tense is from your own statements from another forum. In fact, your sin and still be saved interpretation on Romans 7:14-24 shows that you think that it is normative for a Christian to struggle with sin (as if they are a slave to it) because you believe Paul did so as a Christian (Which is false). This simply gives you an excuse to not fight so as to put away sin for good (Which is not what the passage is teaching).

We are supposed to be slaves to God.

Romans 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Jesus says that he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34).
And a slave (slave to sin) will not abide in the house forever (John 8:35).

Meaning, the Christian or believer who justifies sin (and who is a slave to sin) will be cast out at the Judgment.

Just read Matthew 13:41-42.

Jesus will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who do iniquity and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

It’s why Paul says he keeps his body under subjection so he may not be a cast away (1 Corinthians 9:27).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It makes the chapter cohesive. First you have Romans 7:5-6 which is New Covenant, and NOT a slave to sin, so verse 24 is not out of place in this chapter, and the 25th verse is the conclusion of 14-23, 25, with a new start in Roman 8:1, or could continue right after verse 6. The "Therefore" of 8:1 points to verses 7:5-6.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter....Romans 8:1-9 THEREFORE...

Verse 24 shows the hope at the end of the Old Covenant - Jesus. But the final verse, 25, is the end of the LAW. Both covenants have a mind, but not the same mind. The first covenant had the mind of memorized Laws. The New Covenant has the mind of Christ. The mind in verse 25 is the same one in 14-23 and is not the mind of Christ, thus it is still about the Law, and fits with the second half. Two halves of a verse not relating to one another is just not correct exegesis.

Again, I disagree. The first half of Romans 7:25 does not exist for the Pharisee religionist who struggled with sin while trying to keep the Old Law. No Pharisee would thank Jesus Christ for delivering them from this body of death. Only the second half of Romans 7:25 is a side note point on how Saul (Paul) could not overcome sin because he did not have the Lord Jesus yet in his life. On his own he had no power to overcome.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Again, I disagree. The first half of Romans 7:25 does not exist for the Pharisee religionist who struggled with sin while trying to keep the Old Law. No Pharisee would thank Jesus Christ for delivering them from this body of death. Only the second half of Romans 7:25 is a side note point on how Saul (Paul) could not overcome sin because he did not have the Lord Jesus yet in his life. On his own he had no power to overcome.

Of course it does. You just said it. "while trying to keep the Old Law." Where is that Law? In his MIND. It is NOT in his HEART.

That is the difference between keeping the letter of the law that you know in your mind, and the Spirit of the law in your heart/conscience/nature.

What is giving you a problem is the placement of the name of Jesus. But there still had to be a conclusion to 14-23 and it was 25. And again, it is not proper exegesis to divide a verse in half and say one is after, and the second half is before. That isn't even logical eisegesis! And 24 reverts back to 5-6 which begins again in Romans 8:1 because we are freed from the law and SIN.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course it does. You just said it. "while trying to keep the Old Law." Where is that Law? In his MIND. It is NOT in his HEART.

The Old Law (like the Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, holy days, animal sacrifices, etc) was not applicable anymore after Christ died upon the cross. This is why Paul said sin that it might appear as sin. In addition, Paul was engaged in the false Pharisee religion that stressed a wrong way or an approach to God. They had traditions that made void the Word of God, and they placed an emphasis on the Law (appearing that they were for it), but they ignore the weightier matters of the Law like love, justice, and mercy, etcetera. It was all Law and very little to no grace in the Pharisee false religion. So while he may have tried to keep the Old Law while as a Pharisee he could not do so because he needed Jesus to be able to overcome his sin. Even OT saints could abide in Jesus when the Old Covenant was in still valid before the cross. But Paul is saying we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6). This means that things have changed. His struggle in trying to keep the Old Law was faulty not only because it was no long applicable but because he did not have Jesus in his life yet.

That is the difference between keeping the letter of the law that you know in your mind, and the Spirit of the law in your heart/conscience/nature.

This is yet another popular Protestant saying that makes me roll my eyes every time I hear it. This is a distortion of 2 Corinthians 3:6 that says, “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.”

Paul is not talking about how reading a literal interpretation of written forms of Scripture will end up killing us whereby we must read the Scriptures in some sort overly spiritualized way. Paul is referring to the letter as the Torah or the 613 Laws of Moses. The Spirit was helping the apostles to form the New Testament Scriptures. At the time of the writing of the 2nd letter to the Corinthians, not all NT Scripture was finished yet. The letter killed because if you broke the Law of Moses involving certain laws, you could be stoned or killed.

What is giving you a problem is the placement of the name of Jesus. But there still had to be a conclusion to 14-23 and it was 25. And again, it is not proper exegesis to divide a verse in half and say one is after, and the second half is before. That isn't even logical eisegesis! And 24 reverts back to 5-6 which begins again in Romans 8:1 because we are freed from the law and SIN.

As I said before. Verse numbers are a later addition to the Bible. So they technically did not exist when Paul wrote what he did originally.
Paul tended to go and back forth in his conversation. Again, no Pharisee in the Pharisee religion would ever thank Jesus Christ for delivering him from his body of death like in the first half of verse 25. It is only in the 2nd half of verse 25 Paul makes a quick point about how on his own (as a Pharisee he could not obey the Lord).

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The Old Law (like the Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, holy days, animal sacrifices, etc) was not applicable anymore after Christ died upon the cross. This is why Paul said sin that it might appear as sin. In addition, Paul was engaged in the false Pharisee religion that stressed a wrong way or an approach to God. They had traditions that made void the Word of God, and they placed an emphasis on the Law (appearing that they were for it), but they ignore the weightier matters of the Law like love, justice, and mercy, etcetera. It was all Law and very little to no grace in the Pharisee false religion. So while he may have tried to keep the Old Law while as a Pharisee he could not do so because he needed Jesus to be able to overcome his sin. Even OT saints could abide in Jesus when the Old Covenant was in still valid before the cross. But Paul is saying we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6). This means that things have changed. His struggle in trying to keep the Old Law was faulty not only because it was no long applicable but because he did not have Jesus in his life yet.

I know and agree.

This is yet another popular Protestant saying that makes me roll my eyes every time I hear it. This is a distortion of 2 Corinthians 3:6 that says, “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.”

Paul is not talking about how reading a literal interpretation of written forms of Scripture will end up killing us whereby we must read the Scriptures in some sort overly spiritualized way. Paul is referring to the letter as the Torah or the 613 Laws of Moses. The Spirit was helping the apostles to form the New Testament Scriptures. At the time of the writing of the 2nd letter to the Corinthians, not all NT Scripture was finished yet. The letter killed because if you broke the Law of Moses involving certain laws, you could be stoned or killed.

Don't know what would make your eyes roll. LOL Unless you don't understand how the letter kills. Those same laws written on our heart changes our very nature. It isn't imputed righteousness, it IS righteousness.

Take for instance the Sabbath commandment. There is no way to keep the Spirit of that commandment the way it is understood. The only way is by the letter. Its not part of our nature to naturally and instinctually know when sundown on Friday is, unless you are committed by the letter to look for the first star, and make a lot of preparations beforehand so no work is done for those 24 hours. But how is the Sabbath to be kept by the Spirit? Do you know? Hint: It is part of the gospel. Think about it. How do we honor the Sabbath. What did it actually refer to?

The Old Covenant (Ten Commandments) was a ministry of death. Seeing as punishment of death seemed to have died away, except to test Jesus like the woman caught in adultery. God had to overlook the sins they previously committed. The Law could make no man righteous, because no matter how well they kept the letter of the Law, their hearts were still evil.

Romans 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to alland on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

As I said before. Verse numbers are a later addition to the Bible. So they technically did not exist when Paul wrote what he did originally.
Paul tended to go and back forth in his conversation. Again, no Pharisee in the Pharisee religion would ever thank Jesus Christ for delivering him from his body of death like in the first half of verse 25. It is only in the 2nd half of verse 25 Paul makes a quick point about how on his own (as a Pharisee he could not obey the Lord).

Verse 25 has no part logically with the next verse, so what does it matter. The verse number placement is mute. You are right no Pharisee would, so 24 is not inserted there as anything but to revert back to verse 5-6. Romans 8:1 starts with "Therefore" meaning it is relating to something prior - 7:5-6

Read without the insert: cc: @post you too.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[post]

No one is good, but God alone

 

[post]

Most of the writing I provide on Romans 7 is my own writing. I only included a source quote for a small portion of the writing. The point here is that you are not really dealing with the text in what it says in context. Paul is clearly not referring to his experience as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24. This is obvious if you were to read Romans 6 through Romans 8. Romans 7:1 says Paul is referring to those who know the Law (i.e. the Old Law). Paul says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6). This sets the stage of his conversation to come in Romans 7:14-24. Then again, you take the sin and still be saved interpretation on Romans 7:14-24 not because of the context but because you simply like the idea that you can sin and still be saved. That’s easier. But that is the wide gate path that many are on. There are many warnings in Scripture to even believers that those who sin will not make it into God’s Kingdom.

The other source quotes of your claim that you are a sinner present tense is from your own statements from another forum. In fact, your sin and still be saved interpretation on Romans 7:14-24 shows that you think that it is normative for a Christian to struggle with sin (as if they are a slave to it) because you believe Paul did so as a Christian (Which is false). This simply gives you an excuse to not fight so as to put away sin for good (Which is not what the passage is teaching).

We are supposed to be slaves to God.

Romans 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Jesus says that he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34).
And a slave (slave to sin) will not abide in the house forever (John 8:35).

Meaning, the Christian or believer who justifies sin (and who is a slave to sin) will be cast out at the Judgment.

Just read Matthew 13:41-42.

Jesus will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who do iniquity and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

It’s why Paul says he keeps his body under subjection so he may not be a cast away (1 Corinthians 9:27).

• Romans 7:12-25 is present tense - any interpretation claiming it is past tense is patently false and contrary to scripture.
  • end of story
• 1 John 1:8-10 exists - any doctrine or theology that deines it is heresy
  • end of story
• Matthew 6:5-18 exists and is a model for daily prayer
  • v.12 undeniably indicates an ongoing need for forgiveness
  • end of story

you would like to deny scripture for the sake of having a doctrine that contradicts God and glorifies yourself?
OK do as you will

but no one is good but God alone

((sic)) - Jesus​

 

[post]

Of course it does. You just said it. "while trying to keep the Old Law." Where is that Law? In his MIND. It is NOT in his HEART.

That is the difference between keeping the letter of the law that you know in your mind, and the Spirit of the law in your heart/conscience/nature.

What is giving you a problem is the placement of the name of Jesus. But there still had to be a conclusion to 14-23 and it was 25. And again, it is not proper exegesis to divide a verse in half and say one is after, and the second half is before. That isn't even logical eisegesis! And 24 reverts back to 5-6 which begins again in Romans 8:1 because we are freed from the law and SIN.

it's all present tense

denying that is denying scripture, making yourself an heretic and quite transparently eisegesis. i don't care how many eisegetes you can quote; they are all heretics and liars.

claiming Paul is talking about anything other than his present experience is a patent lie: he absolutely knows how to speak Greek and he writes in present tense.

deal with it.

when is that last time you sinned, oh holy "Bible teacher" ??
at least last week. don't lie. you slanderously accused me in your heart, and puffed yourself up with sinful vanity, openly, without remorse, even after i confronted you over it -- and that is sin.
so you, like Paul, have not attained, but you, unlike Paul, have boasted, and set yourself up as equal to the Most High God.

 

[post]

more tomorrow when i have a bit of time and it isn't sabbath.

wow i work "too many" hours, ugh.
yet not 'ugh' but AMEN!
whatever i do, as tho for God, not men

as coworkers often say, a "good problem to have" -- i am thankful to be needed, appreciated and loved

praise the LORD almighty, the Only Good One, Holy, Holy, Holy is His Name -- His lovingkindness is everlasting; i am "only an unworthy servant who has done his duty" ((Luke 17:10))

may my life be a witness of Him

 

[1stCenturyLady]

it's all present tense

denying that is denying scripture, making yourself an heretic and quite transparently eisegesis. i don't care how many eisegetes you can quote; they are all heretics and liars.

claiming Paul is talking about anything other than his present experience is a patent lie: he absolutely knows how to speak Greek and he writes in present tense.

deal with it.

when is that last time you sinned, oh holy "Bible teacher" ??
at least last week. don't lie. you slanderously accused me in your heart, and puffed yourself up with sinful vanity, openly, without remorse, even after i confronted you over it -- and that is sin.
so you, like Paul, have not attained, but you, unlike Paul, have boasted, and set yourself up as equal to the Most High God.

Deal with Paul saying He is FREE. Romans 8:2. He is not in the bondage of Romans 7:14-23. Have you never learned that we are not under the law, but under grace? Grace is not a license to sin as you believe. It is the gospel of grace and the power of God to recreate your nature to make it divine. Romans 1:16; 2 Peter 1:2-4

But it doesn't even stop there, post. We must grow in the Lord.

2 Peter 1:5-11

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

post, I'm really worried how carnal your thinking is. Paul calls someone like you a babe. Are you new to the Lord? Well, you probably are, and have learned some doctrines of demons. Those are false doctrines and why you want so much to prove you can sin and be saved. Find another teacher. What denomination are you presently listening to? RUN!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

• Romans 7:12-25 is present tense - any interpretation claiming it is past tense is patently false and contrary to scripture.
  • end of story

Sorry. No. It’s not the end of the story. I already gave an eight point treatise with Scripture (much of it involving the context) showing that Paul is indeed speaking in the present tense relating his past experience as a Pharisee. But you did not address at least one of my points.

But just skip back a chapter and Paul says, “Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? God forbid.” (Romans 6:1-2).

• 1 John 1:8-10 exists - any doctrine or theology that deines it is heresy
  • end of story

I believe 1 John 1:8-10 just fine. I just do not agree with your interpretation that 1 John 1:8 is saying that you are a slave to your sin this side of Heaven. Jesus said that he that sins is a slave to sin and the slave (i.e. slave to sin) will not abide in the house forever; Meaning if you sin you are are a slave to your sin and you will not abide in the house of Christ forever (See: John 8:34-35). For all who do iniquity in Christ’s Kingdom will be gathered out by Christ’s angels and cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (See: Matthew 13:41-42). The apostle John also basically says that the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (See: 1 John 2:4). So 1 John 1:8 cannot be interpreted in a way that would contradict 1 John 2:4. 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren to not deny sin if we do happen to sin. Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion. So 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them to not deny sin if they do sin. The proper way to deal with sin instead of denying it’s existence is to confess of one’s sins to Jesus. But John does not expect us to keep sinning because he says for the brethren to “sin not.” (1 John 2:1) (Which is something you don’t actually believe).

• Matthew 6:5-18 exists and is a model for daily prayer
  • v.12 undeniably indicates an ongoing need for forgiveness
  • end of story

Jesus also told two people to sin no more (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
If you were to go back to 1 John 1:9, it says if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. So the goal of confessing sin is to be cleansed of ALL unrighteousness (Which you don’t believe).
Besides, the Lord’s Prayer in regards to forgiveness was never said to be a daily prayer that we are to partake of the rest of our lives.
That is only assumption on your part. In fact, we know that cannot be the case because we are told to be holy as God is holy (1 Peter 1:16).

you would like to deny scripture for the sake of having a doctrine that contradicts God and glorifies yourself?
OK do as you will

No. God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).
Christ gave himself for us so that He sanctify us with the washing of the water of the Word so that He might present to Himself a church that is without spot, and blemish (See: Ephesians 5:25-27). Grace gives us the ability to do the work God calls us to do (See: 1 Corinthians 15:10, Ephesians 2:10).

but no one is good but God alone

((sic)) - Jesus​

Right. I agree. We surrender to God and He does the good work through us. Any or all good we do is the Lord working through us (Philippians 2:13). For without Jesus we can do nothing (John 15:5). For if any man thinks himself to be something, he deceives himself. Christ saves us not only eliminating our past life of sins, but Christ can help us to overcome sin and to do the work He requires of us (and to live holy lives). We cannot do this on our own. Only God can do this through us. Just like the Israelites winning the battle against incredible odds. It was God ultimately that helped them to win the battle and not the might of the Israelites.

Romans 13:14 says,
“But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.”

Do you believe this above verse?
I don’t see how.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Sorry. No. It’s not the end of the story. I already gave an eight point treatise with Scripture (much of it involving the context) showing that Paul is indeed speaking in the present tense relating his past experience as a Pharisee. But you did not address at least one of my points.

But just skip back a chapter and Paul says, “Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? God forbid.” (Romans 6:1-2).


I believe 1 John 1:8-10 just fine. I just do not agree with your interpretation that 1 John 1:8 is saying that you are a slave to your sin this side of Heaven. Jesus said that he that sins is a slave to sin and the slave (i.e. slave to sin) will not abide in the house forever; Meaning if you sin you are are a slave to your sin and you will not abide in the house of Christ forever (See: John 8:34-35). For all who do iniquity in Christ’s Kingdom will be gathered out by Christ’s angels and cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (See: Matthew 13:41-42). The apostle John also basically says that the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (See: 1 John 2:4). So 1 John 1:8 cannot be interpreted in a way that would contradict 1 John 2:4. 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren to not deny sin if we do happen to sin. Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion. So 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them to not deny sin if they do sin. The proper way to deal with sin instead of denying it’s existence is to confess of one’s sins to Jesus. But John does not expect us to keep sinning because he says for the brethren to “sin not.” (1 John 2:1) (Which is something you don’t actually believe).



Jesus also told two people to sin no more (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
If you were to go back to 1 John 1:9, it says if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. So the goal of confessing sin is to be cleansed of ALL unrighteousness (Which you don’t believe).
Besides, the Lord’s Prayer in regards to forgiveness was never said to be a daily prayer that we are to partake of the rest of our lives.
That is only assumption on your part. In fact, we know that cannot be the case because we are told to be holy as God is holy (1 Peter 1:16).



No. God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).
Christ gave himself for us so that He sanctify us with the washing of the water of the Word so that He might present to Himself a church that is without spot, and blemish (See: Ephesians 5:25-27). Grace gives us the ability to do the work God calls us to do (See: 1 Corinthians 15:10, Ephesians 2:10).



Right. I agree. We surrender to God and He does the good work through us. Any or all good we do is the Lord working through us (Philippians 2:13). For without Jesus we can do nothing (John 15:5). For if any man thinks himself to be something, he deceives himself. Christ saves us not only eliminating our past life of sins, but Christ can help us to overcome sin and to do the work He requires of us (and to live holy lives). We cannot do this on our own. Only God can do this through us. Just like the Israelites winning the battle against incredible odds. It was God ultimately that helped them to win the battle and not the might of the Israelites.

Romans 13:14 says,
“But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.”

Do you believe this above verse?
I don’t see how.

Well said. I agree.

Notice also the word "says" in 1 John 2 about what a person says is not always the truth. Then the word "say" in 1 John 1:6, 8, 10 becomes abundantly clear that this is a sinner talking the talk, but not walking the walk as in verse 7.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@both-of-you as previously stated I don't have the luxury of time presently to quote the entire Bible to you.

I think you actually first need to deal with the verses I put forth to you initially that demolishes your belief before quoting the entire Bible.

For now I'd like to comment that you seem to me to take a very low view of holiness.

This is a false accusation. You are the one who believes you will be a slave to sin in this life and yet be saved. I actually believe the Bible when it says in Hebrews 12:14 that we are to follow after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. You actually don’t believe that verse because you don’t believe in making peace with all men, and following after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord.

Which is to say, y'all think you are 'good' because you have either very little understanding of what true goodness is or you are intentionally dishonest in your own self evaluations. That's JMO.

The reality of God’s Word is not determined by how any one Christian lives or how a group of Christians live. The reality of the faith is that God’s Word says for us to also obey Him as a part of salvation. Hebrews 5:9 basically says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. If things are as you say, then Hebrews 5:9 would say that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who believe alone, confess sin, and disobey Him.

Granted, we do need to confess of our sins (if any new sin arises). But we need to confess and forsake our sins in order to have mercy (See: Proverbs 28:13) (Compare 1 John 1:9 with 1 John 1:7). Believers need to in time overcome sin in this life. Yes, we are saved by God’s grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but this is in our INITIAL Salvation (Ephesians 2:1). After we are saved by God’s grace in our Initial Salvation, we have to continue in God’s plan of salvation in obeying God and living holy. For God has chosen us to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

So you both eisegete, and are prolifigating heresies that historically date to the 1890s centering around the nazarene movement & modern pelagian NAR junk.

No. It has nothing to do with them. The Bible teaches that after we are saved by God’s grace, we have to live holy as a part of God’s plan of salvation. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. In other words, it’s called believing all of the Bible as it is plainly written.

As for the Nazarene Church:

Well, the Nazarene church I visited a couple of years ago is excessively worldly. One lady professed she fellowships with Catholics, and Mormons.

As for NAR:

Yeah, I am not into the Charismatic Movement and lean more towards Cessationism. See my biblical write up here at CF (if you are interested). In fact, I know that the things that happened at the Toronto Blessing and the Brownsville Revival are not of God. While I believe Cessationism is the most likely truth biblically, I will not speak against anyone claiming to be operating by the gifts (unless they are barking, screaming, etc or they are misapplying Scripture). I also like to make it clear that I could be wrong about Cessationism, and there is a chance God may be operating in the use of all the gifts in some remote part of the world (Just in case I am wrong and so as not to condemn myself). I just tend to play it safe and prefer not to get mixed up in any miraculous gifts because of the excessive misuse of them today. While I do discuss other Biblical topics, my main focus of my ministry is getting other believers to know about God’s true grace, and Sanctification (to live a holy life) as a part of God’s plan of salvation.

It will be around the weekend hopefully before I will have any kind of opportunity to respond with any depth

I will wait for your response to address the verses I put forth to you that demolishes your belief. But I am not going to hold my breath (thinking you will actually do that).

((don't y'all have jobs or families?))

Imagine if you told the apostle Paul this. He wrote the New Testament and lived his life for the Lord in entire sacrifice for him. Yes, he was a tent maker, but we don’t read in Scripture about how his life was revolved primarily around tent making. In fact, Paul says to follow his example (as Christ is his example).

but I would like you to consider 2 things please meanwhile: pride is sin,

Right, pride is sin. But in popular Protestant Belief Alone Salvationism, we can just sin and still be saved by having a belief alone in Jesus, and or confessing sin (with no real change in our life), and so pride really does not matter.
But if you believe your Bible over Belief Alone Salvationist’s lies, then pride can condemn your soul.

Consider: 1 Timothy 6:3-4 basically says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. So if one do not agree with the words of Jesus like say in Matthew 5:28-30 (like most Christians I talk with), then one is proud (1 Timothy 6:3-4), and God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6). Meaning, one will not have grace and be saved if they speak contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness. You really don’t believe in the doctrine of godliness because you believe you can sin and still be saved by just confessing sin (with no intention of actually reforming or changing to live for the Lord).

and the body dies.

Right, the body does die. For the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). For if you live after the flesh (sin), you will die, but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live (live eternally) (See: Romans 8:13).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well said. I agree.

It’s good when we can agree.

Blessings be unto you the Lord this fine day.

 

[post]

oh good, you're replying.

so you've **kind of read** what i wrote, tho your hearts immediate reaction is simply antagonism and vanity.
((which is sin -- deal with it))

but it's good, you are paying a little attention.

let's review:

no one is good but God alone

- Jesus Christ God Enfleshed
​

may i ask, how do each of you feel about this statement of truth?
do you ignore it?
do you rebuff?
do you consider yourselves to be "good" ?
do you try to explain it away?
does it eat at you?
do you reject God's word here?
do you embrace it?

"no one"​

 

[post]

have you considered yet the fact that your bodies are dying?

you haven't addressed that, tho i asked you in particular to meditate on it.

why are your bodies dying?
because they are sinlessly perfect and God is unjust? therefore evil?
or because it is the holy recompense absolutely deserved that our Great God of Truth requires of you?

if you are perfect in your flesh you will not die. death is the wages of sin.

deal with it, o great wise venerable teachers to whom post is as a worm.

i'm a fool, to be sure, but i'm not so stupid as you presume.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

oh good, you're replying.

so you've **kind of read** what i wrote, tho your hearts immediate reaction is simply antagonism and vanity.
((which is sin -- deal with it))

but it's good, you are paying a little attention.

let's review:

no one is good but God alone

- Jesus Christ God Enfleshed
​

may i ask, how do each of you feel about this statement of truth?
do you ignore it?
do you rebuff?
do you consider yourselves to be "good" ?
do you try to explain it away?
does it eat at you?
do you reject God's word here?
do you embrace it?

"no one"​

Who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12).

“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:” (Philippians 1:6).