Speaking in tongues is NOT a gift

[Bible Highlighter]

have you considered yet the fact that your bodies are dying?

you haven't addressed that, tho i asked you in particular to meditate on it.

why are your bodies dying?
because they are sinlessly perfect and God is unjust? therefore evil?
or because it is the holy recompense absolutely deserved that our Great God of Truth requires of you?

if you are perfect in your flesh you will not die. death is the wages of sin.

deal with it, o great wise venerable teachers to whom post is as a worm.

i'm a fool, to be sure, but i'm not so stupid as you presume.

Proverbs 30:20 says:
“Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.”

Isaiah 5:20
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”

Malachi 2:17 AMP
“You have wearied the LORD with your words. But you say, “In what way have we wearied Him?” In that you say, “Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them,” or [by asking], “Where is the God of justice?”

Job 17:12 NASB
“They make night into day, saying, ‘The light is near,’ in the presence of darkness.”

Matthew 6:22-23 EXB
The eye is a light [the lamp] for the body. If your eyes are good [healthy; clear], your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are evil [unhealthy; bad], your whole body will be full of darkness. And if the only light you have [or light you think you have; light in you] is really darkness, then you have the worst darkness [how great that darkness is!].

2 Timothy 3:1-9
“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.”

Jeremiah 23:1
“Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.”

Jeremiah 23:21-23
“I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?”

Jude 1:4 NIV
“For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”

Titus 1:16
“They profess that they know God, but by their works they deny him, being abominable, disobedient, and unfit for any good work.”

Romans 16:18
“For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

oh good, you're replying.

so you've **kind of read** what i wrote, tho your hearts immediate reaction is simply antagonism and vanity.
((which is sin -- deal with it))

but it's good, you are paying a little attention.

let's review:

no one is good but God alone

- Jesus Christ God Enfleshed
​

may i ask, how do each of you feel about this statement of truth?
do you ignore it?
do you rebuff?
do you consider yourselves to be "good" ?
do you try to explain it away?
does it eat at you?
do you reject God's word here?
do you embrace it?

"no one"​

Who ultimately won the Israelite battles when the Israelites were outnumbered by the enemy?
Was it the Israelites who won the battle against great odds, or was it God helping them to ultimately win that battle?
Think. It’s no different today except we fight a spiritual battle and not a physical one. God is the One who gets all the credit and glory in doing good (Which is done through us). What your carnal mind sees as impossible, it is possible with God to walk the walk that the Lord requires of us (Because of the the LORD our GOD inside of us). He is the One who makes it possible to overcome, and be good. For if any man thinks himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was thinking of 1 Cor 12:7-10. Verse seven brings up the spiritual matter of manifestations and the next three verses lists the manifestations one of which is tongues.

In the end, everything we have from God is a gift. I realize that. However one of the gifts God gave us is holy spirit. The problem with much teaching that tongues is a gift, leads people to think it is a special thing, only the those who were singled out by God. That of course leads the vast majority of Christians to think they are not "special" and therefore do not have the "gift" of tongues. But that's not right. Paul, by revelation from God, said he wished every Christian spoke in tongues, so it MUST be available for all Christians to speak in tongues.

All Christians can speak in tongues because all Christians have the GIFT of holy spirit. As 1 Corinthians 12:7-10 says, there are nine different MANIFESTATIONS, one of which is tongues. In short, if you are born again, you have the GIFT of holy spirit which you, by your free will, can MANIFEST power form on high (Luke 24:49) into the material world.

Perhaps you could imagine that the devil would absolutely loose his mind if all Christians MANIFESTED that power from on high? I suspect his only answer is to keep as many Christians as possible from knowing about those MANIFESTATIONS, including tongues.

As you said, when all is said and done all of this is truly a gift . We certainly didn't earn it!

I think you are going off of your own thinking or emotionalism rather than what the Scripture says. Speaking in tongues is clearly a gift according to 1 Corinthians 12.

Anyways, based on my study of Scripture and by studying this topic: I believe the non-miraculous gifts are for today, and I believe miracles (in general) can happen today, but the miraculous gifts have most likely ceased in our present day. While I am not discounting the possibility of the existence of the miraculous gifts entirely, I am not so sure the miraculous gifts of tongues are for today because their purpose was for prophecy with the interpretation of tongues (Which is another gift). Prophecy appears to have ended with the book of Revelation. Tongues were also for the Jews (of which are a sign that they looked for). We are not looking for any new prophecy. Jesus is returning is the next thing we are looking for. But even if tongues did not cease, I don't see how it would make others feel less special if they don't speak in tongues. In the early church, they were to desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but it was the Spirit that gifted that person with a particular gift.

A Christian at that time would know the truth of this verse.

“Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?” (1 Corinthians 12:30).

Therefore, an early church believer would know that they would be designated with a gift that God intended for them. Plus, we are not in service to the Lord just so that we can show forth the power of God to others. We are not chasing God because of the miracles. Believers are to be meek and humble and trust in Him by faith (Which is what God is looking for). Do you believe the Toronto Blessing and the Brownsville Revival are legit occurences of God? Granted, I am not saying that all believers who speak in tongues today is false. I cannot judge their hearts, and or what they do ultimately. Maybe they are acting by God's power. I don't know. But many in I've seen in Charismatic movement bark, laugh, and scream, and convulse on the ground. That's not of God. Are those who speak in tongues today also speaking in tongues with an interpreter? Most I heard about do not do that. So again, if they are indeed operating by God's power, I believe many are misusing the gift and it's true intended purpose (just as the Corinthians once did).

 

[post]

Who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12).

“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:” (Philippians 1:6).

of course it is God who works in me both to will and to do His good pleasure.
but in this post you didn't address either of the two things i asked you to consider:

• is anyone good except God?
• why is your body dying?

 

[post]

Who ultimately won the Israelite battles when the Israelites were outnumbered by the enemy?
Was it the Israelites who won the battle against great odds, or was it God helping them to ultimately win that battle?
Think. It’s no different today except we fight a spiritual battle and not a physical one. God is the One who gets all the credit and glory in doing good (Which is done through us). What your carnal mind sees as impossible, it is possible with God to walk the walk that the Lord requires of us (Because of the the LORD our GOD inside of us). He is the One who makes it possible to overcome, and be good. For if any man thinks himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

of course the glory belongs to the LORD.
but again, you did not address either of the two points i asked you to consider:

• are you good? or is only God alone good?
• why is your body dying?

 

[post]

Proverbs 30:20 says:
“Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.”

Isaiah 5:20
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”

Malachi 2:17 AMP
“You have wearied the LORD with your words. But you say, “In what way have we wearied Him?” In that you say, “Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them,” or [by asking], “Where is the God of justice?”

Job 17:12 NASB
“They make night into day, saying, ‘The light is near,’ in the presence of darkness.”

Matthew 6:22-23 EXB
The eye is a light [the lamp] for the body. If your eyes are good [healthy; clear], your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are evil [unhealthy; bad], your whole body will be full of darkness. And if the only light you have [or light you think you have; light in you] is really darkness, then you have the worst darkness [how great that darkness is!].

2 Timothy 3:1-9
“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.”

Jeremiah 23:1
“Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.”

Jeremiah 23:21-23
“I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?”

Jude 1:4 NIV
“For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”

Titus 1:16
“They profess that they know God, but by their works they deny him, being abominable, disobedient, and unfit for any good work.”

Romans 16:18
“For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”

amen

and which of these do you think answers the two things i asked you to consider?

• is anyone good but God alone?
• why is your body dying?

 

[Rich R]

I think you are going off of your own thinking or emotionalism rather than what the Scripture says. Speaking in tongues is clearly a gift according to 1 Corinthians 12.

Anyways, based on my study of Scripture and by studying this topic: I believe the non-miraculous gifts are for today, and I believe miracles (in general) can happen today, but the miraculous gifts have most likely ceased in our present day. While I am not discounting the possibility of the existence of the miraculous gifts entirely, I am not so sure the miraculous gifts of tongues are for today because their purpose was for prophecy with the interpretation of tongues (Which is another gift). Prophecy appears to have ended with the book of Revelation. Tongues were also for the Jews (of which are a sign that they looked for). We are not looking for any new prophecy. Jesus is returning is the next thing we are looking for. But even if tongues did not cease, I don't see how it would make others feel less special if they don't speak in tongues. In the early church, they were to desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but it was the Spirit that gifted that person with a particular gift.

A Christian at that time would know the truth of this verse.

“Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?” (1 Corinthians 12:30).

Therefore, an early church believer would know that they would be designated with a gift that God intended for them. Plus, we are not in service to the Lord just so that we can show forth the power of God to others. We are not chasing God because of the miracles. Believers are to be meek and humble and trust in Him by faith (Which is what God is looking for). Do you believe the Toronto Blessing and the Brownsville Revival are legit occurences of God? Granted, I am not saying that all believers who speak in tongues today is false. I cannot judge their hearts, and or what they do ultimately. Maybe they are acting by God's power. I don't know. But many in I've seen in Charismatic movement bark, laugh, and scream, and convulse on the ground. That's not of God. Are those who speak in tongues today also speaking in tongues with an interpreter? Most I heard about do not do that. So again, if they are indeed operating by God's power, I believe many are misusing the gift and it's true intended purpose (just as the Corinthians once did).

I think the scriptures clearly declare tongues to be a manifestation.

1 Cor 12:7-10,

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
​

Of course everything we get from God is a gift, but there are different kinds of gifts. One of the gifts is the ability to manifest holy spirit. The gift all believers get is holy spirit. Spirit can not be seen, heard, felt, tasted or touched. However God was genius enough to enable all Christians to manifest that invisible spirit into the senses realm. Those are the nine manifestations of the gift of holy spirit.

Jesus said we would do the works he did and even more works.

​

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
​

He did 7 of the 9 manifestations. Tongues and interpretation were not available when he walked the earth.

There is only one reason for why we don't see more miracles today;

Matt 17:19-20,

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
​

Christians need to stop making excuses for a lack of miracles, healing, devil spirit discerning, etc. The only reason it's not been seen on a regular basis is because of unbelief. But the unbelief itself is due mainly to lack of teaching. In fact much teaching we hear from the pulpits on Sunday mornings tells us that miracles have ceased, ostensibly because of:

1Cor 13:10,

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
​

It is taught that the scriptures were that which are perfect. While they in themselves are of course beyond perfect, the way people handle them is far from perfect. I include myself in that group. We all see through a dark glass, so it can hardly be expected that we see God and ourselves as we really are. Our 5 senses just get in the way of our seeing the truth sometimes (Romans 7). When we get new bodies from Jesus at his return (Phil 3:21), then we will indeed know the whole truth and that is what the perfection in 1 Cor 10:13 is talking about. Until then we are in a spiritual battle and the only way to be truly effective in that battle is to utilize the gift of holy spirit God gave us and the only ways to do that are the nine manifestation

Paul laid out in great detail how we ought to operate tongues, interpretation, and prophecy in the church. That would all be in 1 Corinthians 14. There we are told to do everything decent and in order. Rolling on the ground and growling is not that! So, yes, the manifestations are being mishandled, but that's only because of wrong teaching. Nobody can go beyond what they are taught. If a Pastor says tongues are gone, then it is highly unlikely that few, if any, in his church will speak in tongues. But that doesn't negate Paul's exhortation for us to speak in tongues much.

Tongues is for one's private prayer life. I speak in tongues quietly to myself, in my mind, often. I see someone suffering and if I can't talk to them I can at least speak in tongues for them. It is perfect prayer because our spirit knows the score on things way better than our understanding. In Corinthians 14 Paul said to speak in tongues much to build ourselves up. He said he wishes we would all speak in tongues. Why would God want that if it weren't available?

But in a group of believers, tongues should be accompanied by interpretation. The same person can and should do both. The other option is prophecy. Tongues with interpretation and prophecy is for the edification of all present at the meeting. All of that is in 1 Corinthians 14.

The problem with the teaching that tongues are a gift is that it leads people to think only certain believers get the "gift" and therefore most believers do not operate tongues and miss out on the edification Paul mentions.

If you are interested, I'd love to help you learn to speak in tongues. It is actually easier than speaking a known language, given we don't even have to think about the words spoken in tongues. God gives your spirit the words to say and your spirit gives those words to your mind. All you have to do is move your lips, tongues, throat, etc and let the words come out. The believer is totally in control. He or she starts at their own will and stop at their own will. God never possesses. There is no need whatsoever to get all excited and roll around, wave hands, or whatever. Just speak out loud in a normal voice or speak quietly in your own mind. If you thank God right now for His gift of holy spirit, then I bet you could speak in tongues by the end of the day.

Once you become proficient in tongues, you can gain the confidence to bless others in a meeting by interpreting what you spoke in tongues or by prophecy. Get comfortable with that and in no time you will indeed be doing the words Jesus did. I can't see any down side to that!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

more tomorrow when i have a bit of time and it isn't sabbath.

wow i work "too many" hours, ugh.
yet not 'ugh' but AMEN!
whatever i do, as tho for God, not men

as coworkers often say, a "good problem to have" -- i am thankful to be needed, appreciated and loved

praise the LORD almighty, the Only Good One, Holy, Holy, Holy is His Name -- His lovingkindness is everlasting; i am "only an unworthy servant who has done his duty" ((Luke 17:10))

may my life be a witness of Him

Does that give us a clue that you are Messianic or SDA and keep the 4th Commandment according to the letter?

Also, may I ask that you use the reply button or quote so we know who you are addressing.

 

[post]

Does that give us a clue that you are Messianic or SDA and keep the 4th Commandment according to the letter?

Also, may I ask that you use the reply button or quote so we know who you are addressing.

you know who i am addressing.
it is enough.

Christ is the Messiah.
we are not under Moses.
it doesn't matter who i am; the Truth is The Truth: The I AM

speaking of **addressing** ---

• are you good? or is only God, alone, good?
  • is Jesus good? are you 'as good as Jesus'? are you equal to God?
    • answer carefully o great wise unreproachable "teacher"
• why is your body currently dying?
  • think.

 

[post]

it's written "rebuke the wise and they will love you"

slanderous, unsubstantiated, false accusations don't count as "rebuke" in a Biblical sense, dear Bible-persons.
they count as "lies"

think.
​

from those who boast much, i expect much.
"habit"

 

[post]

Have you never learned that we are not under the law, but under grace?

Grace is not a license to sin as you believe.

1. quite certain i have publically affirmed exactly that to you several times.
2. that is a blatant scandalous, unprovoked, false personal attack directly on my character -- therefore you are in sin, therefore you are not perfect or sinless, therefore you have been either openly, unrepentantly preaching false, lying doctrine, or at the very least you have boasted of 'maturity' when you ought to have held your tongue because you are a mere child in the faith, unlearned, unable to teach and shaming both yourself & the whole church with your own untamed speech. in either case you have led countless astray.
   you have not spoken by the Spirit; you have spoken by your own licentious, dying flesh.

i repeat again the obvious ((yet unanswered)) questions:

• is anyone good, but God alone?
• why is your body dying?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

you know who i am addressing.
it is enough.

That is rude. Do as you wish then and act two years old, and we'll just guess. But when you DO use the correct avenue to respond, we get an alert that someone has responded.

 

[post]

That is rude. Do as you wish then and act two years old, and we'll just guess. But when you DO use the correct avenue to respond, we get an alert that someone has responded.

I rather think a 2yr old isn't savvy enough to be posting in a theological discussion board at all.
You comprehended enough to respond, didn't you?
That is why I said, it was enough: I was communicating with you, and you understood that, and wrote back in kind.
See now how I have quoted you? Hope it brings you joy!

But this pettiness about using the quote feature and calling me names is a diversion from the topic I have been discussing: you claim to be sinless and perfect here on earth in your body. In reply, I asked you to consider 2 things that you have not yet addressed. I will repeat them again:

• Is anyone but God alone, "good"?
• Why is your body currently in a state of decay and dying?

 

[post]

I'm sorry, are these hard questions?

@1stCenturyLady?
@Bible Highlighter?

They seem very straightforward and obvious to me.
They seem like they have clear, undeniable answers in scripture.

They seem to me to utterly destroy the 19th century "church of the Nazarene" sinless perfection error.

Is that perhaps why neither of you will answer them?

I will be busy again for the rest of the week. A pity we couldn't have a mature, honest conversation this weekend. I hope, sometime soon.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm sorry, are these hard questions?

@1stCenturyLady?
@Bible Highlighter?

They seem very straightforward and obvious to me.
They seem like they have clear, undeniable answers in scripture.

They seem to me to utterly destroy the 19th century "church of the Nazarene" sinless perfection error.

Is that perhaps why neither of you will answer them?

I will be busy again for the rest of the week. A pity we couldn't have a mature, honest conversation this weekend. I hope, sometime soon.

Out of love for a fellow believer, I don’t want to derail their thread. So I moved the thread discussion here and here (to answer both of your questions) out of courtesy to the poster of the OP. For his thread topic is not about these particular discussions.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think the scriptures clearly declare tongues to be a manifestation.

1 Cor 12:7-10,

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
​

Of course everything we get from God is a gift, but there are different kinds of gifts. One of the gifts is the ability to manifest holy spirit. The gift all believers get is holy spirit. Spirit can not be seen, heard, felt, tasted or touched. However God was genius enough to enable all Christians to manifest that invisible spirit into the senses realm. Those are the nine manifestations of the gift of holy spirit.

Jesus said we would do the works he did and even more works.

​

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
​

He did 7 of the 9 manifestations. Tongues and interpretation were not available when he walked the earth.

There is only one reason for why we don't see more miracles today;

Matt 17:19-20,

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
​

Christians need to stop making excuses for a lack of miracles, healing, devil spirit discerning, etc. The only reason it's not been seen on a regular basis is because of unbelief. But the unbelief itself is due mainly to lack of teaching. In fact much teaching we hear from the pulpits on Sunday mornings tells us that miracles have ceased, ostensibly because of:

1Cor 13:10,

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
​

It is taught that the scriptures were that which are perfect. While they in themselves are of course beyond perfect, the way people handle them is far from perfect. I include myself in that group. We all see through a dark glass, so it can hardly be expected that we see God and ourselves as we really are. Our 5 senses just get in the way of our seeing the truth sometimes (Romans 7). When we get new bodies from Jesus at his return (Phil 3:21), then we will indeed know the whole truth and that is what the perfection in 1 Cor 10:13 is talking about. Until then we are in a spiritual battle and the only way to be truly effective in that battle is to utilize the gift of holy spirit God gave us and the only ways to do that are the nine manifestation

Paul laid out in great detail how we ought to operate tongues, interpretation, and prophecy in the church. That would all be in 1 Corinthians 14. There we are told to do everything decent and in order. Rolling on the ground and growling is not that! So, yes, the manifestations are being mishandled, but that's only because of wrong teaching. Nobody can go beyond what they are taught. If a Pastor says tongues are gone, then it is highly unlikely that few, if any, in his church will speak in tongues. But that doesn't negate Paul's exhortation for us to speak in tongues much.

Tongues is for one's private prayer life. I speak in tongues quietly to myself, in my mind, often. I see someone suffering and if I can't talk to them I can at least speak in tongues for them. It is perfect prayer because our spirit knows the score on things way better than our understanding. In Corinthians 14 Paul said to speak in tongues much to build ourselves up. He said he wishes we would all speak in tongues. Why would God want that if it weren't available?

But in a group of believers, tongues should be accompanied by interpretation. The same person can and should do both. The other option is prophecy. Tongues with interpretation and prophecy is for the edification of all present at the meeting. All of that is in 1 Corinthians 14.

The problem with the teaching that tongues are a gift is that it leads people to think only certain believers get the "gift" and therefore most believers do not operate tongues and miss out on the edification Paul mentions.

If you are interested, I'd love to help you learn to speak in tongues. It is actually easier than speaking a known language, given we don't even have to think about the words spoken in tongues. God gives your spirit the words to say and your spirit gives those words to your mind. All you have to do is move your lips, tongues, throat, etc and let the words come out. The believer is totally in control. He or she starts at their own will and stop at their own will. God never possesses. There is no need whatsoever to get all excited and roll around, wave hands, or whatever. Just speak out loud in a normal voice or speak quietly in your own mind. If you thank God right now for His gift of holy spirit, then I bet you could speak in tongues by the end of the day.

Once you become proficient in tongues, you can gain the confidence to bless others in a meeting by interpreting what you spoke in tongues or by prophecy. Get comfortable with that and in no time you will indeed be doing the words Jesus did. I can't see any down side to that!

I think others explained it better than I (already in this thread). A manifestation of the Spirit (tongues) is also a gift. Things in the Bible can be described as having multiple characteristics. Tongues is both a gift, and a manifestation of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:4-10
“Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:”

Tongues is a gift and a manifestation. It’s a gift because you cannot speak in tongues without the Spirit. But 1 Corinthians 12 is saying that there are diversities of gifts. Tongues is in context to these diversities of gifts. If you disagree, it just sounds like you are disagreeing with the context here, my friend.

 

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@Rich R

Here is my case for…

Cessationism:
Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.
(Note: This does not mean miracles have ceased, but it means that the gift of healing or the gift of miraculous gifts and prophecy as seen in the early church has ceased).

Important Note:
Please keep in mind that I am not claiming that all brothers and sisters are automatically liars if they believe they have done genuine miracles or they have seen what they believe to be genuine miracles. I am always open to the possibility that God may operate miraculously today on rare occasions. I am also aware that I am human and fallible and I would not want to speak against the true working of the power of God today. So unless I see or witness a group's miracles and beliefs, I am not claiming all who claim to be working by God's power today are not genuine. In fact, there is a brother I feel close with who believes that he operates by God's power and miracles. I cannot honestly say how God is operating in his life. But yet I know the Bible tells me that miraculous gifts have ceased, though. Perhaps for us, it is a matter of perspective. In either case, here is my Biblical case for Cessationism (The ceasing of miraculous gifts given to the apostles).​

1. Tongues and prophecy have ceased ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?
   
   
2. Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” (neuter in the Greek) fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) (Which would also be neuter). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). James 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in. Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance. Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance. Therefore, Glass / Mirror = Perfect = The Word of God. 1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does. 2 Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us. It says: "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (Also see verse 15 in the same chapter). As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.
   
   
3. Tongues were for a sign that the Jews looked for. 1 Corinthians 1:22 says, “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:” But Jesus says, “ An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;” (Matthew 12:39). Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:22). "In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), saith the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21. Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore. 1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand."
   
   
4. The three greatest prophets and miracle workers in the Bible are Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. We see that the miracles that they performed were a way to authenticate them as a messenger from GOD and the Word of God that they provided (that would be immortalized into Scripture). We notice that after each of these prophets, there was a time of silence where no miracles were done. Just like with the prophets Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, miracles authenticated the apostles' message as from God. "And they (apostles) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs (tongues, prophecies, healing, etc.) following. Amen." Mark 16:20. Today the need for tongues and miracles has ceased. God has authenticated the apostles and the New Testament that they penned. This proves the temporary nature of tongues and miracles.
   
   
5. We can see that after the book of Acts, the gifts no longer operated in Paul’s life like they once had. The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren’t mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul’s life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn’t heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts (See this article here for the full explanation).

(To be continued in my next post to you):

 

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#6. Notice that both 1 Corinthians 13:11 and Ephesians 4:13 equate attaining fullness of knowledge with becoming a perfect or mature man. What have childish things got to do with temporary gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge? Answer: Paul is comparing a human advancing from childhood to adulthood, with the church passing from infancy in the first century marked by prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts to maturity marked by believers depending on the Bible, faith, hope and charity from 96 AD to the rapture. By 96 AD the childish gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge had ceased, and church manhood had been reached. A man comes to fulness of the knowledge of Christ by Scripture; For all Scripture is profitable for doctrine that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). (Note: Back in the early church, the gift of knowledge was the giving of special revelation of either history, and or doctrine that the apostles did not have on their own; In the OT, Moses received the gift of knowledge to pen the details of history in the Torah; In the NT, Certain men of God (in the early church) had received new knowledge from God to teach new doctrine, like Peter, James, John, and Paul etc. so as to write inspired Scripture).​

#7. While God can heal people directly Himself today, the gift of miracles is not given to any one believer that we know today. No Charismatic can always heal. Yet, the Bible says that they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts 5:12-16. "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people.....they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets.....and they were healed every one". (Acts 5:16).​

#8. New revelation (prophecy) or new words from God are not to be added (Revelation 22:18-19). If a person were to add to God’s Word, the plagues that are within the book known as the Bible (not the plagues in Revelation) would be added to them. We have occurrences of this actually happening. See these two links here: Bible Correctors lose Voice Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show​

#9. The Apostles and Prophets were merely the foundation built upon the foundation of Jesus. “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;” (Ephesians 2:18-20). We are said to have access by one Spirit unto the Father that is build upon the “foundation” of the apostles and prophets. Being an apostle is a gift (See 1 Corinthians 12:28-31). The qualifications of being an apostle was to have seen the risen Lord Jesus Christ (See Acts of the Apostles 1:22-26). Paul said he met the qualifications as being an apostle because he had seen the risen Lord. 1 Corinthians 9:1 “…Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” Paul called himself the “last prophet.” (1 Corinthians 15:8-9). Paul says that God has set forth the apostles last (1 Corinthians 14:9).​

#10. The context of I Corinthians is rebuking 13 errors, such as tongues, and it is not recommending tongues. The Corinthian church was filled with problems that Paul corrects in this book, such as:​

(a) They were following their favourite human leaders causing divisions. 1:11-14
(b) " " favouring human wisdom. 1:18-2:13
(c) " " carnal, living for self, not controlled by the Spirit. 2:14-3:7
(d) " " forgetting the future Judgment Seat of Christ. 3:8-23
(e) " " proud, thinking of themselves more highly than they ought. 4:1-21
(f) " " failing to discipline, by tolerating a fornicator. 5:1-13
(g) " " taking fellow believers to court. 6:1-20
(h) " " confused about marriage. 7:1-40
(i) " " confused about liberty thinking it meant licence to do as they please, even stumbling others. 8 ,9 ,10.
(j) " " confused about clothing, long hair on men and Lord's Supper. 11
(k). " " confused about spiritual gifts, especially tongues. 12-14
(l) " " confused about the resurrection. 15
(m) " " confused about the collection. 16​

As we can see the Corinthian church was deep in error and false doctrine. It was the only church that emphasized tongues as today's Charismatics do. Charismatics therefore place themselves in very bad company. Charismatics fail to understand that Paul is not endorsing tongues, but is rebuking the wrong use of tongues and is strongly regulating tongues contrary to today's Charismatics. Today's emphasis on assemblies with more than on person speaking at the same time is plainly wrong (1 Corinthians 14:27). Paul feared that even one person speaking in tongues without proper interpretation would give the appearance of barbarians or insanity (1 Corinthians 14:11) (1 Corinthians 14:23). What would he think of today's mass hysteria? Today's spontaneous, wild use outside of Scriptural limits is wrong. The gift of prophecy, far superior in every way to tongues, was under the control of the prophets For it is written: “Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit and can take turns.” (1 Corinthians 14:32) (NLT). So Paul's repeated instructions about the right use of the gift of tongues required it to be a very controllable gift, not a force or power controlling the user. Paul valued 5 words with the understanding rather than 10,000 words without the understanding (i.e. tongues)! So Preaching is far superior in God's purpose and for the churches' profit (1 Corinthians 14:19) (1 Corinthians 14:39). The gifts had a purpose and a place in time. They were to authenticate the church and the New Covenant. But seeing that which is "perfect" has come (the Bible), we do not need any more revelation. The Bible has all the revelation or instruction that we need today.​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Rich R

You appear to take the view that one can pray in tongues behind closed doors.

Here is my case for...

The unlikelihood of private prayer done in tongues:

#1. Only Two Verses Loosely Imply Praying in Tongues in Private (But they do not explicitly teach or say such a thing):

1 Corinthians 14:2, and 1 Corinthians 14:28 are the two biggest verses used to defend a private prayer language in tongues.

However, what is 1 Corinthians 14:2 saying?

In context, this is talking about the misuse of tongues or publically speaking a real foreign language (i.e. tongues) towards God (without an interpreter), and it is not a private prayer in tongues behind closed doors. How so? Well, the passage says that no man understands him.

"Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; "
(1 Corinthians 14:1-2).​

How can a man not understand them if they are praying in tongues behind closed doors? The idea here that "no man understands him" means they are wrongfully talking to God publicly around other believers without an interpreter.

As for 1 Corinthians 14:28:

Some try to defend this practice by pointing to 1 Corinthians 14:28. It says,

“But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church;
and let him speak to himself, and to God.”
(1 Corinthians 14:28).​

But it does not clearly say that they are praying in tongues to God in private, though. How can we be sure? Well, Paul's admonition about how we need to pray with the understanding (1 Corinthians 14:15), and how tongues are for unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22) leads me to believe that this is not talking about praying in tongues behind closed doors (or in the privacy of one's closet). God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).


#2. The Purpose of Tongues (Alone) is for the Unbeliever (Especially the Unbelieving Jew):

The purpose of tongues is given to us in 1 Corinthians 14:22.

It says,

"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:
but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."
(1 Corinthians 14:22).​

So if your goal or purpose for tongues is not for the use for the unbeliever to hear, then it defeats its true and ultimate purpose as defined in Scripture.

"In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), saith the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21. Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore. 1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand."

Tongues were for a sign that the Jews looked for. 1 Corinthians 1:22 says, “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:” But Jesus says, “ An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;” (Matthew 12:39).

The tower of Babel was a sign of judgment from GOD. When the language was confused, it was a sign of God's judgment. When the Israelites were conquered by Babylon, they heard foreign tongues. They went into the Babylonian captivity. So the Jews would know that the hearing of foreign tongues (not some other worldly tongue) was a sign of judgment against them.


#3. What is one of the purposes of the gifts?

“To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.”
(1 Corinthians 12:7) (ESV).

“As each one has received a special gift,
employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.” (1 Peter 4:10) (NASB).

Paul’s whole point of the proper use of tongues was for the mutual edification of the body of the church (1 Corinthians 14:5) (1 Corinthians 14:12), and the edification of oneself (1 Corinthians 14:4) appears to be negative because Paul says that one is like a barbarian (1 Corinthians 14:11), and mad to others (1 Corinthians 14:23), and Paul would prefer to speak 5 words with the understanding vs. 10,000 words without the understanding (1 Corinthians 14:19).


#4. What was Jesus’s view of praying?

Jesus says,

“But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:
for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”
(Matthew 6:7).​

Praying in tongues in private seems awfully close to how not to pray. How does the private prayer tongue speaker know they are not speaking in vain repetitions? Do they think they are heard for their much speaking by such practice?


#5. No Clear Verses Mentioned About Private Prayer Language:

While I am not saying that Pentecostals or Charismatics are not operating by the power of God when they pray in tongues, I am saying that Scripture does not clearly support this practice that they are partaking of, and there are verses that appear to speak against such a thing.

There is no verses that say,

“And Paul prayed in tongues to God behind closed doors.”​

“God desires us to pray to the Lord in tongues when nobody is around.”​

Inferences are made off of two verses in 1 Corinthians 14 (When Paul was actually criticizing the wrong use of tongues).

 

[Rich R]

I think others explained it better than I (already in this thread). A manifestation of the Spirit (tongues) is also a gift. Things in the Bible can be described as having multiple characteristics. Tongues is both a gift, and a manifestation of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:4-10
“Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:”

Tongues is a gift and a manifestation. It’s a gift because you cannot speak in tongues without the Spirit. But 1 Corinthians 12 is saying that there are diversities of gifts. Tongues is in context to these diversities of gifts. If you disagree, it just sounds like you are disagreeing with the context here, my friend.

I agree with you 100% that everything we get from God is a gift, but not all gifts are the same. Last Christmas I got many gifts but they were all quite different.

Let's look at the context. I'm not ignoring it at all. In fact, context is what I believe builds my case. First of all, it must be understood that 1 Corinthians 12 is talking about spiritual matters. I know many translations use the word "gift" in 1 Cor 12:1 but that word is not in any Greek text and it causes misunderstanding about the rest of the chapter. The Greek word used in verse 1 is "pneumaticos" and it simple means spiritual matters.

What are these spiritual matters?

1. Gifts (v 4)
   
2. Administrations (v 5)
3. Operations (v6)
4. Manifestations (v 7)

Now do verses 8-10 (which mention tongues) talk about gifts, administrations, operations, or manifestations? I'll just let it go at that.

There are many benefits of speaking in tongues in the scriptures. All Christians have holy spirit and therefore are capable of not only tongues but of the other 8 as well (more on that in a minute). But when we say that tongues is a gift, it leads us to think that only a select few have that gift but most don't. That means most don't speak in tongues and therefore miss out on the many benefits tongues has for the believer.

Are we not in a spiritual battle? Of course we are. We don't wrestle with flesh and blood but with evil spirits in a world that itself is groaning for redemption (Rom 8:22). Speaking in tongues is the foundation upon which we build the rest of our offensive and defensive weapons. As Paul said, speaking tongues builds us up, edifies us. It builds us up to the point where we can be comfortable operating the other 8 manifestations. While tongues edifies the individual believer, interpretation of tongues and prophecy ediy the entire body of those present in the meeting. Would it not be a blessed thing to build up ourselves and others? Of course it would and God gave us all the ability to do just that.

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
​

Compare the manifestations in 1 Cor 12:8-10 with the works Jesus did and it becomes apparent that Jesus did 7 of the 9 manifestations. We can either operate the same 7 manifestations or we can say the Bible is mistaken or, worse yet, outright lies to us. I am highly in favor of the former!

Jesus did not speak in tongues or interpret simply because those manifestations were not available until the day of Pentecost.

Paul said he was glad he spoke in tongues more than anybody else. He also said that he wishes all would speak in tongues. He correctly observed that not everybody spoke in tongues, but that in no way has to mean those who didn't couldn't. All Christians, having holy spirit, can and should become proficient in all 9 manifestations. The reason is simple; we need them in order to most effectually minister to others in need. I can see someone who is obviously suffering from who knows what. I just see they are suffering. But since I've built up myself by much speaking in tongues, I can ask God what is their problem and He'll give me a "word of knowledge" to let me know what is wrong. He will also give me "word of wisdom" so I know what to do. Maybe I'll then operate the manifestation of gifts of healing or maybe cast out a devil spirit. Or maybe I'll just speak in tongues quietly to myself, lifting that person to God. I don't know what's wrong with them, but my spirit knows spot on exactly what the problem is and it will intercede accordingly.

You correctly mentioned the importance of context. But there is a near context and there is a remote context. The remote context, i.e., the basic message of scripture, tells us God is love and wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. If you look honestly at the nine manifestations it becomes apparent that those are precisely the tools God gave us in order to show the world His great love and care for all people. Operating outside of the nine manifestations is guess work at best and has limited value. Work through your spirit via the nine manifestations and perfect results are guaranteed every time.