Spotting Heretics

[Ferris Bueller]

You have it backwards. Any Christian who does a good work does so in response to the grace God gave them in the first place.

Yes, the grace of JUSTIFICATION. Works of faith are the result of ALREADY being justified, not in order to become justified as you are insisting James is saying.

In turn, this glorifies God, not the person doing the good work. They don't SHOW to anybody, that would be vanity.

Then you're saying James is guilty of vain glory when he says, "I will show you my faith by my deeds." (James 2:18).

Have you even checked out my claim that the word 'justified' means, both, to be MADE righteous, and to be SHOWN to be righteous? If you want to have an honest, intelligent, level-headed discussion, please do that. Show me I'm wrong about that. Then you'll have a basis for the legitimacy of your argument. But as it stands now, I've got the legitimate, defensible argument. You do not. You won't until you successfully challenge my assertion that there are two definitions of the word 'justified' and that it demonstrably evident by context which one James is using and which one Paul is using.

 

[Marymog]

Oh, my, Mary.
You're so pathetic.
Why do you refuse to at the very least read my posts? You wouldn't be asking this if you gave me the courtesy of reading my posts and taking the time to at least understand my argument.

I have read your posts....and they are an opinion, not an affirmative "argument" that makes sense. Once again you failed.

 

[Marymog]

I know that the Catholic church corrupted the church. Almost from the beginning.

Hmmmm.....so the Protestant revolution that you support DIDN'T corrupt the church? Even though it has multiple truths from the same reading of Scripture? Can you really not see how your theory is bankrupt?

 

[Marymog]

The Bible, perhaps, lol?
Not so tough of a choice.
But it is for you because you have been taught to bypass the Bible and rely on the Catholic hierarchy. That's why this is difficult for you.

Let's try this again kiddo. It takes man to interpret Scripture. Your men have taught you their interpretation of what they read. Your men disagree with the Apostolic Fathers. The Apostolic Fathers were taught by the Apostles the PROPER interpretation of what Jesus meant. You reject them and accept your men who lived 2,000 years later. What more is their to say?

 

[Wrangler]

No @Wranger, we are not discussing salvation, we are talking about justification. James 2:24; we are not justified by faith alone.

We Protestants ARE talking about salvation!

You are stuck on the word justification AS IF it is the basis of salvation. Let me put it this way, do Catholics believe one can obtain salvation without works? Yes or No will suffice.

 

[Marymog]

I know who you're talking about and I definitely do not accept them as trusted bearers of truth. I only listen to the prophets, Jesus, and the original Apostles in scripture. Not your Catholic hierarchy. Because they do not agree with scripture.

Let's be VERY CLEAR here Ferris. You INTERPRET the Apostles and what they wrote. There is no way you can listen to them because you are not talking to them. The Apostolic Fathers LISTENED to the Aposteles AND questioned them for clarification. You reject their writings and accept the writings of men who lived thousands of years later. So the hierarchy you listen to has failed you!.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Let's be VERY CLEAR here Ferris. You INTERPRET the Apostles and what they wrote.

What's to be clear about? That's what I've been saying, lol! The Holy Spirit is the discerner of truth. And each truly born again person has that discerner of truth in them. So when you say something not true the Holy Spirit shows me your error. And when someone says something that is true the Holy Spirit shows me it's true. You do not believe this because you reject the Apostle John's teaching about this. You have been brainwashed into thinking the Catholic hierarchy discerns what is true and what is not for you. As long as you believe that, and are afraid they'll keep you from being saved if you don't, you will remain in bondage to error. My counsel to you is to get born again and establish your own relationship with God and the Holy Spirit and learn the truth for yourself.

 

[Marymog]

Hang around, Mary. You might learn the difference between being MADE righteous by faith in Gods forgiveness, and being SHOWN to have that righteousness by your works. Your Catholic leaders do not know the difference and so they teach that a person is MADE righteous by doing works of faith. And you have to believe them because they told you that you have to believe them because they are the only ones that can discern truth for you. They say you can't do that. You're not allowed to do that. Only they can do that.

Yup, only The Church can fulfill 1 Timothy 3:15. I know your men have taught you that you can discern the truth from Scripture.....that is until you disagree with them....then they tell you that you have not discerned the truth. You crack me up ferris.....

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Hmmmm.....so the Protestant revolution that you support DIDN'T corrupt the church? Even though it has multiple truths from the same reading of Scripture?

That honor goes to the Catholic church. It is the original corrupter of the church.

Peter tells us there will invariably be false prophets among us true believers. The Catholic church was the first instance of that corruption starting in the early church. That corruption all started with you.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yup, only The Church can fulfill 1 Timothy 3:15.

Of course the members of the body of Christ, the church, fulfill 1 Timothy 3:15, lol. Who else would it be?????

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I know your men have taught you that you can discern the truth from Scripture...

Actually, that comes right out of 1 John 2:20-27. The part of the Apostle John's teaching you Catholics reject. And you reject it because the Catholic hierarchy suppressed that truth. And you can't say anything about it or challenge it because they also told you if you do they'll shut you off from salvation.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I have read your posts....and they are an opinion, not an affirmative "argument" that makes sense. Once again you failed.

No, Mary, it's not about what I say being an opinion or not. You show that you don't read and comprehend my posts. Because if you did you would not have asked the question you did.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You believe that we are so depraved that God only covers our sins up by declaring us righteous (imputing Christ’s righteousness to us). The Catholic (and Scriptural view), however, is that God is powerful enough to blot out our sins and remove them. The view that God just declares us righteous by “covering us up,” denigrates the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives, who continues the work of Christ through His work of justification and sanctification (infusing His grace into souls and changing the inner person).

No, I do not believe that the imputation of God's righteousness to the believer is purely a legal declaration of righteousness. The righteousness of God comes to the believer in the form of the Holy Spirit that changes the core of his being. And he begins to live righteously, more and more, from that point forward. There is this obnoxious new OSAS movement making the rounds that subscribes to what you are describing above. I have no part of that. Most seasoned Christians don't.

 

[Behold]

There is this obnoxious new OSAS movement making the rounds that subscribes to what you are describing above. I have no part of that. Most seasoned Christians don't.

"seasoned Christians" understand that their Salvation ONLY is based on Christ.

"seasoned Christians" would not be caught dead trying to teach that Christ's Salvation is related to you trying to live holy.

"seasoned Christians" understand that Discipleship that you rant about, is not Salvation..

You are not a seasoned Christian, or you would not only understand all this, but you would praise God for it, instead of trying to deny it on a public forum., Ferris.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yes, agreed, but you cannot stop insisting on a falsehood that Catholicism doesn't teach.

Yes, or no...do works of faith MAKE a person righteous in Catholicism? Why is being MADE righteous not by faith in the forgiveness of God all by itself in Catholicism? Remember, we're talking about justification here, so tell us what works in addition to faith MAKE you righteous...literally make you righteous like faith does.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

"seasoned Christians" understand that their Salvation ONLY is based on Christ.

"seasoned Christians" would not be caught dead trying to teach that Christ's Salvation is related to you trying to live holy.

"seasoned Christians" understand that Discipleship that you rant about, is not Salvation..

You are not a seasoned Christian, or you would not only understand all this, but you would praise God for it, instead of trying to deny it on a public forum., Ferris.

I honestly believe you are mentally ill. I have said none of these things. I will report you if you keep saying I do.

 

[Behold]

No, I do not believe that the imputation of God's righteousness to the believer is purely a legal declaration of righteousness. .

Look again Ferris.

Think now..

Remember when you were first saved?
Lets say you died 28 seconds later..
So, where are your works?
Where are your works that prove your "righteousness",?

A.) Nowhere, yet you went to Heaven.

Why?
Because God who saved you, keeps you saved through Christ.
Why?
Because God who starts Salvation, in all the born again, is HIMSELF FAITHFUL to complete it.
Philippians 1:6

Look again, Ferris.

The dying Thief on the Cross.
Where Is he, Ferris?
He's in HEAVEN.
So, where are his "righteous works", ? Where are they Ferris?

A.) NOWHERE...

So, why is He in Heaven?
Its ONLY Because God who saved you, keeps you saved through Christ.
Why?
Because God who starts Salvation, in all the born again, is HIMSELF FAITHFUL to complete it.

Philippians 1:6

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Look again Ferris.

Think now..

Remember when you were first saved?
Lets say you died 28 seconds later..
So, where are your works?
Where are your works that prove your "righteousness", that you obsess about?

A.) Nowhere, yet you went to Heaven.

Why?
Because God who saved you, keeps you saved through Christ.
Why?
Because God who starts Salvation, in all the born again, is HIMSELF FAITHFUL to complete it.
Philippians 1:6

Look again, Ferris.

The dying Thief on the Cross.
Where Is he, Ferris?
He's in HEAVEN.
So, where are his "righteous works", ? Where are they Ferris?

A.) NOWHERE...

So, why is He in Heaven?
Its ONLY Because God who saved you, keeps you saved through Christ.
Why?
Because God who starts Salvation, in all the born again, is HIMSELF FAITHFUL to complete it.

Philippians 1:6


Think Ferris.
You have to THINK.

If you actually gave me the Christian courtesy of taking the time to understand what I've been saying you would not have wasted your time and mine typing that post.

 

[Behold]

If you actually gave me the Christian courtesy of taking the time to understand what I've been saying you would not have wasted your time and mine typing that post.

Ive listened to your reasons you teach that a believer, born again, can go to hell, for over 16 months.
For me to have continued to try to help you out of that Cross denying, is proof of more then Courtesy that ive been doing here for you.

You teach, ... normally using one verse, that a Born again Christian, can lose their Salvation.
That is a Cross denying LIE.
You are not innocent of this deception., and if you get 45 mods to try to protect you, this will not justify the years you have spent on this Forum, and i would wager, other forums, trying to convince REAL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS, that Christ does not keep them saved, unless they are careful not to do something that >you teach< can cause a born again Son/Daughter of God to end up In Hell, with Christ in them.

So, that is, i believe, mental and spiritual illness, fella......to teach that LIE for years., and years, and years..
Thats on YOU.
So, we'll see who has the head issue, soon enough.
Believe it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Ive listened to your reasons you teach that a believer, born again, can go to hell, for over 16 months.
For me to have continued to try to help you out of that Cross denying, is proof of more then Courtesy that ive been doing here for you.

You teach, ... normally using one verse, that a Born again Christian, can lose their Salvation.
That is a Cross denying LIE.
You are not innocent of this deception., and if you get 45 mods to try to protect you, this will not justify the years you have spent on this Forum, and i would wager, other forums, trying to convince REAL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS, that Christ does not keep them saved, unless they are careful not to do something that >you teach< can cause a born again Son/Daughter of God to end up In Hell, with Christ in them.

So, that is, i believe, mental and spiritual illness, fella......to teach that LIE for years., and years, and years..
Thats on YOU.
So, we'll see who has the head issue, soon enough.
Believe it.

Why are you continually riding this one-trick pony?
We're not even talking about that and yet you pull it back to the only theological point you possess.

And just for the record you do NOT know what I believe about OSAS. Except that it surely does not resemble ANYTHING as heretical as your one-trick pony.