Spotting Heretics

[Marymog]

That's not what he said.

Sooooo you DO agree with EVERYTHING that @amigo de christo writes?

I already know that the answer is NO....but you and he keep playing this game of it is us against marymog so we have to stick together.....that is until you disagree with each other. You kiddo's crack me up

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You have to stop claiming the opposite of what James 2:24 clearly states..."not by faith alone..."

I agree completely with James.
A man is not justified (shown to be righteous) by faith alone.
James 2:18

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In the field of education,

• the Catholic Church runs 73,164 kindergartens with 7,376,858 pupils;
• 103,146 primary schools with just over 35 million pupils;
• 49,541 secondary schools with 19.3 million pupils.
• The Church also educates 2.25 million high school pupils, and 3.7 university students.

Charity and healthcare centers run by the Church include:

• 5,192 hospitals,
• 15,481 dispensaries,
• 577 care homes for people with leprosy,
• 15,423 homes for the elderly, or the chronically ill or people with a disability,
• 9,295 orphanages,
• 10,747 creches,
• 12,515 marriage counseling centers,
• 3,225 social rehabilitation centers
• and 31,091 other kinds of institutes.

Ferris, if you think all these great works are accomplished by mere human effort, without God's grace, then you give us far more credit than we give ourselves.

I just want to know how doing things like this MAKES you a saved, born again, new creation. I understand on an individual basis how these things might SHOW one to be a saved, born again, new creation. But I firmly disagree with the Catholic church that these works of faith MAKE a person that. Only the forgiveness of God, secured through faith in that forgiveness, all by itself, can do that. That is the truth that escapes the leadership of the Catholic church. The leadership that you blindly trust to be telling you what is truth and what is not.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works.

The question is simple: Since these "ergois agathois" justify a person, and you are sure James is using the word 'justified' in the exact same way and meaning Paul is, how do these works transform a person from an unconverted, unsaved person into a converted, saved, born again person?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”

I agree.
That's James' argument concerning what he's talking about.
Paul says "righteousness apart from works". That's because he is addressing the legal release from sin debt and the imputation of God's righteousness to a person in place of their unrighteousness. That happens entirely by having faith in the death and resurrection of Christ APART FROM WORKS.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I have learned that @Ferris Bueller ignores the passages of Scripture that teach opposite of what his men have taught him.

BUT....keep the faith illiminator and keep teaching him! He is still growing and has admitted he does not yet know all the truth. Maybe, someday, he will grow into the Truth!

Hang around, Mary. You might learn the difference between being MADE righteous by faith in Gods forgiveness, and being SHOWN to have that righteousness by your works. Your Catholic leaders do not know the difference and so they teach that a person is MADE righteous by doing works of faith. And you have to believe them because they told you that you have to believe them because they are the only ones that can discern truth for you. They say you can't do that. You're not allowed to do that. Only they can do that.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I didn't say the early church fathers. I clearly referenced the Apostolic Fathers.

I know who you're talking about and I definitely do not accept them as trusted bearers of truth. I only listen to the prophets, Jesus, and the original Apostles in scripture. Not your Catholic hierarchy. Because they do not agree with scripture.

 

[amigo de christo]

I know who you're talking about and I definitely do not accept them as trusted bearers of truth. I only listen to the prophets, Jesus, and the original Apostles in scripture. Not your Catholic hierarchy. Because they do not agree with scripture.

Yes indeed , stay well planted in that bible my friend .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Your men

Why do you keep saying this stupid thing? My men are the prophets, Jesus, and the writers of the NT.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Who should I trust? YOUR men, who were students of men 2000 years removed from the Apostles? Or the men who were students of the Apostles? Tough choice...

The Bible, perhaps, lol?
Not so tough of a choice.
But it is for you because you have been taught to bypass the Bible and rely on the Catholic hierarchy. That's why this is difficult for you.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You don't even know your own christian history.

I know that the Catholic church corrupted the church. Almost from the beginning.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Once again, I will destroy your theory/opinion: What individual believer (church, according to you) fulfils 1 Tim 3:15? If there is no "organization of leaders" in an offical organization for the church, then what men in your un-official church do you obey (Hebrews 13:17)? How are those leaders in your un-official church appointed?

Oh, my, Mary.
You're so pathetic.
Why do you refuse to at the very least read my posts? You wouldn't be asking this if you gave me the courtesy of reading my posts and taking the time to at least understand my argument.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

you are only interested further division

I absolutely do want complete and total separation and division from the false Catholic gospel of works righteousness. No apologies for that.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The CC is not your enemy

The works righteousness gospel is the enemy of every true, born again, genuine, converted child of God. I'm completely unapologetic for that stance.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You are too scared to post a web site of your church...

My brothers and sisters (the real ones) are my church. Our doctrine is the Bible. And we're spending a lifetime learning and discerning it's truth, together. I am non-denominational in every true sense of the word. I can't point you to an organization because I am not part of an organization. I am a member of Christ's body, the church.

...out of fear from other Protestants who disagree with you...

I am not afraid of doctrinal differences between bona fide born again believers, the genuine members of Christ's body. What I am afraid of is false converts/ leaders and their false doctrines.

...and you do theological flip flops because you disagree with your own so called reformers on many points.

I have no reformers. I only have the truth as I am learning it. If something agrees with what a reformer said, then so be it.

Your unproven assertion of "errors" is hollow drum pounding and you are incapable of meaningful dialogue, so you bark stupid insults.

I leveled the challenge to you to explain to us how doing righteous works of faith MAKES you a born again righteous person and erases your sin debt before God. Non-Catholics understand that being born again and transformed into a new creation and having your sin debt canceled occurs by having your sin debt erased through forgiveness, not worked off through righteous work. Of course, like the very first real church (not your Catholic church) there are false prophets and their movements among us too (2 Peter 2:1). But it remains that the whole basis of the anti-Catholic movement is our defiance of your works righteousness religion vs. our religion of "righteousness by faith apart from works" (Romans 4:6).

 

[Illuminator]

The question is why don't you and the Catholic church understand that James' is talking about being justified in regard to being shown to be righteous, not made to be righteous.

You are too proud to admit you are wrong about "faith alone" as James 2:24 clearly and unambiguously says the opposite of your claim.

Works of obedient faith do not MAKE you righteous.

Of course not, and nobody is making that claim. It's a straw man fallacy. "Works righteousness" is a heresy called Pelagianism, condemned by the Church 1000 years before the first Protestant was born, condemned by the Church again at the Council of Orange, condemned again at the Council of Trent, and in spite of all this, you guys keep accusing us of "works righteousness" which is stupid and slanderous.

They SHOW to have the righteousness of God that is imputed to a person entirely on the basis of their faith in the forgiveness of God through Christ.

You have it backwards. Any Christian who does a good work does so in response to the grace God gave them in the first place. In turn, this glorifies God, not the person doing the good work. They don't SHOW to anybody, that would be vanity.

Psalm 51:1-2 – O God, blot out my transgressions, wash me thoroughly from my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. This cleansing requires an inner change of heart. You believe that we are so depraved that God only covers our sins up by declaring us righteous (imputing Christ’s righteousness to us). The Catholic (and Scriptural view), however, is that God is powerful enough to blot out our sins and remove them. The view that God just declares us righteous by “covering us up,” denigrates the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives, who continues the work of Christ through His work of justification and sanctification (infusing His grace into souls and changing the inner person).

See, sin debt is removed by it being forgiven and wiped off your account. It is not worked off with righteous works. That's impossible.

Yes, agreed, but you cannot stop insisting on a falsehood that Catholicism doesn't teach.

You sin debt is too great to do that. It would require you to die an eternal death for your sin. That's why the ONLY way to be made righteous in God's sight is to be forgiven. Through faith in that forgiveness. No work of any kind can earn that imputation of righteousness. This very truth is why men had to separate themselves from the corrupt works salvation Catholic church.

This LIE has been drilled into your brain, just like your LIE that James taught "faith alone".

​

 

[Wrangler]

You are too proud to admit you are wrong about "faith alone" as James 2:24 clearly and unambiguously says the opposite of your claim.

Sorry but you are demonstrating how hard it is for Protestants to talk to Catholics. It’s like there are 2 conversations, talking over each other.

What you so adamantly assert is completely untrue! I’m confidant @Ferris Bueller is talking about salvation. James 2:24 is NOT in conflict with the mechanism of salvation. A modern CEV translation makes the distinction obvious.

You can now see that we please God by what we do and not only by what we believe.

Notice it does not say we are saved by works (along with faith). The NLT puts it this way

we are shown to be right with God

Again, salvation does not hinge on works. To describe James 2:24 in the modern vernacular, our Father wants us to do good works for his glory BUT he is not going to write us out of the Will if we don’t do good works. We ought to want to work as he wills out of love, not reward. Working for reward is the old covenant, denies the sufficiency of Christ as it implies Jesus death was for nothing.

Hope this helps.

 

[Illuminator]

First, though: some preliminary observations. As usual, @Ferris Bueller (along with many other Calvinist anti-Catholics) is unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace. Here is some more relevant information to consider:

The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.), accepted as dogma by the Catholic Church, dogmatically taught in its Canon 7:

If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life . . . without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit . . . [goes on to cite Jn 15:5, 2 Cor 3:5]
​

Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:

. . . Man . . . is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.
​

Canon I on Justification:

If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
​

The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as @Ferris Bueller wrongly charges. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God . . . Second Orange again:

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously.
​

Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott describes the Catholic view:

As God’s grace is the presupposition and foundation of supernatural good works, by which man merits eternal life, so salutary works are, at the same time gifts of God and meritorious acts of man.
​

St. Augustine wrote:

What merit of man is there before grace by which he can achieve grace, as only grace works every one of our good merits in us, and as God, when He crowns our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts? (Ep. 194, 5, 19; in Ott, 265)
​

Catholic Merit vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy) | Dave Armstrong

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Sadly, Ferris doesn't get it. Cognitive dissonance are like chains that bind him into constantly teaching anti-Catholic LIES about "works righteousness". Watch him do it again.

No @Wranger, we are not discussing salvation, we are talking about justification. James 2:24; we are not justified by faith alone. Justification by "Faith alone" apart from the other cardinal virtues of hope and charity is an adulterated kind of faith, a man made tradition.

​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You are too proud to admit you are wrong about "faith alone" as James 2:24 clearly and unambiguously says the opposite of your claim.

A man most certainly is justified by works. That is what James says. So there is no pride of being wrong here, lol. What I resist is the Catholic church's contention that 'justified by works' means works (of faith) MAKE you righteous. That is actually one meaning of the word 'justified'. But we know James is not, and can not be using that definition of justified because that would put him in direct contradiction with Paul who says being made righteous is entirely by being forgiven your sin, by faith. Context shows us that James is using another definition of the word 'justified' - to be SHOWN to be righteous. James 2:18 shows us that.

I suspect that maybe you are too proud to admit there are two distinct definitions of the word 'justified' at play here that you did not know about. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though, for now and just believe that you did not know about the two different definitions of the word 'justified'.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Of course not, and nobody is making that claim. It's a straw man fallacy. "Works righteousness" is a heresy called Pelagianism, condemned by the Church 1000 years before the first Protestant was born, condemned by the Church again at the Council of Orange, condemned again at the Council of Trent, and in spite of all this, you guys keep accusing us of "works righteousness" which is stupid and slanderous.

No, it's not a straw man fallacy, and I'm not being slanderous. I understand your argument that this is not about works all by themselves, but works of faith. I get that. But that does not change the fact that Paul said justification happens purely on the basis of receiving the forgiveness of your sin by having faith in that forgiveness. That excludes all works, and that is exactly what he said!