Suicide: A guaranteed direct ticket to hell?

[GodsGrace]

Well, here is one reason:



So, if you are to use the term "believer" as loosely as you and others on here do, then Devils should also be saved just by merit of them being "believers", should they not?

When did I use the term "believer" loosely?
I've been here 3 days and you know all about me already?
Show me a post...

 

[GodsGrace]

No.

Look closely.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Jesus is clearly stating that even though they believe in Him, unless they're doing the will of the Father, their belief is in vain.

Here's proof of their belief in Jesus.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

Why would anyone do anything in the name of Jesus if they didn't believe? The people in that verse are standing before Christ fully expecting to be let into the Kingdom of heaven. When they are denied entrance they remind Jesus of all the wonderful works they accomplished in His name.

Jesus simply replies, "I never knew you".

His failure to notice them is because they were not doing the will of the Father.

Anybody can believe in God, it doesn't mean they automatically get into heaven because of that belief. As was stated here already, "Even the demons believe, and tremble".


o

I agree.

 

[aspen]

Three days is a long time - Look what Jesus did - j/k

 

[GodsGrace]

See post #75.

If you need more, just let me know.

o

P.S.

Re the being sealed.
Jesus never said we are sealed forever.

We are sealed for as long as we have the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit seals us.
No Holy Spirit..........no sealing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, that is the point of being 'sealed'...isn't it?

Jesus may not have taught the 'sealing' of the Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean it is not a true event and doctrine. The revelation the risen Jesus Christ gave to the apostle Paul was that which had not been known before. (Eph. 3:1-5) "...If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;...Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men...."

In other words, Paul did not speak the same things that Jesus Christ spoke during His earthly ministry. The majority of what Jesus Christ said was to Israel concerning the Kingdom. (Rom. 15:8) "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:" Jesus did not speak of the Church until (Matt. 16:18), and even there it was yet a future building.

To Paul was given the doctrine of grace, by which the Church would be formed and orgainized.

Stranger

Ah. I see. So you believe what Paul said but you don't believe what Jesus said.
IOW, Jesus made mistakes when speaking.
He didn't really mean what He said.
He figured to wait till after He died and was resurrected and THEN give Paul the message...

rather than to just tell the people Himself while He was alive and living in Israel.

Considering Jesus was GOD, what you claim makes NO SENSE at all.

Think about it for a minute.
Was Jesus a smart person or not?
Why wait to give His message?

Did He not know what He was talking about?

 

[Job]

I agree.

Thank you.

 

[Dcopymope]

When did I use the term "believer" loosely?
I've been here 3 days and you know all about me already?
Show me a post...

Well, no actually, I don't know you that well. I haven't really been paying attention to every single post you've made, nor will I bother going through three days worth of posts. I would probably just clarify what I mean by "believe" and be done with it instead of just saying "show me a post", but that's just me being convenient.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, no actually, I don't know you that well. I haven't really been paying attention to every single post you've made, nor will I bother going through three days worth of posts. I would probably just clarify what I mean by "believe" and be done with it instead of just saying "show me a post", but that's just me being convenient.

Why explain something to someone who seems to already know something???
You know what they say about "assume".

Anyway, BELIEVE happens to be a very important word for me, as you will find out.
So, I'm actually the opposite of what you thought I was.

Peace.

 

[Dcopymope]

Why explain something to someone who seems to already know something???
You know what they say about "assume".

Anyway, BELIEVE happens to be a very important word for me, as you will find out.
So, I'm actually the opposite of what you thought I was.

Peace.

M'kay sport, I BELIEVE you.

 

[Armadillo]

You need to stop being offended and listen to what the Word is saying.

No offense taken, I had fun.

 

[Stranger]

Ah. I see. So you believe what Paul said but you don't believe what Jesus said.
IOW, Jesus made mistakes when speaking.
He didn't really mean what He said.
He figured to wait till after He died and was resurrected and THEN give Paul the message...

rather than to just tell the people Himself while He was alive and living in Israel.

Considering Jesus was GOD, what you claim makes NO SENSE at all.

Think about it for a minute.
Was Jesus a smart person or not?
Why wait to give His message?

Did He not know what He was talking about?

I believe what Paul said. And I believe what Jesus said.

The 'other words' are yours....not mine.

Yes Jesus is God The Son. What I said makes perfect sense. And what I said is supported by the Scripture I gave. The said Scripture which you do not address. Why? (Eph. 3:1-5) (Rom. 15:8) (Matt. 16:18)

Yes, Jesus knew what He was talking about. It remains for us to learn what He was talking about.

Stranger

 

[Armadillo]

Ah. I see. So you believe what Paul said but you don't believe what Jesus said.
IOW, Jesus made mistakes when speaking.
He didn't really mean what He said.
He figured to wait till after He died and was resurrected and THEN give Paul the message...

rather than to just tell the people Himself while He was alive and living in Israel.

Considering Jesus was GOD, what you claim makes NO SENSE at all.

Think about it for a minute.
Was Jesus a smart person or not?
Why wait to give His message?

Did He not know what He was talking about?

The Jews already knew God and were in Covenant with Him, they ate the flesh of the lamb, God protected them and along comes Jesus and He wants them to "eat my flesh, drink my blood" and to enter into Covenant with Him and they left Him in droves. Yes, Jesus had the words of life, Jesus was life but He had a job to do and His ministry was short.

In a nutshell, God became man. The physical Jesus had a purpose, an intention and it was always God's plan from the beginning, Jesus was God's plan and Jesus dies as Adam to recreate Adam at the resurrection. When Jesus was raised from the dead it was God in Christ and Christ in you, the hope of glory.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe what Paul said. And I believe what Jesus said.

The 'other words' are yours....not mine.

Yes Jesus is God The Son. What I said makes perfect sense. And what I said is supported by the Scripture I gave. The said Scripture which you do not address. Why? (Eph. 3:1-5) (Rom. 15:8) (Matt. 16:18)

Yes, Jesus knew what He was talking about. It remains for us to learn what He was talking about.

Stranger

You said that Jesus came to the Jews.

And Paul came after to explain Jesus' mission and to take the gospel to the gentiles.
You could have corrected me if I misunderstood you instead telling me the rest of the words are mine. What I wrote is what I understood you to say.

IF this is what you mean, then, yes, it makes NO SENSE and for the reasons that I stated in my previous post, to which YOU also did not reply.

There's not too much to learn. Jesus was very clear in what HE said. Paul is a bit more difficult to grasp and that's because HE is NOT God. When there is any doubt whatsoever one goes to JESUS not to Paul.

However they do not conflict since the bible is one continuous message from Genesis to Revelation.

So Ephesians 3:1-5

Paul is writing to the gentiles (most probably to different churches and not only the one at Ephesus, if at all) and he's telling them that he is to preach the gospel of Jesus to all the gentiles. Why? Because God's plan of redemption includes everyone, not just the Jews.

He's teling the "Ephesians" that God's mystery has been made clear. And what is the mystery? It's all throught this epistle. EVERYONE is on the same plane with God. Everyone is offered salvation through Christ, everyone gets to share in the promises that God made from the beginning of time. HIS grace, offered to ALL including the right to enter heaven, through Jesus, the Christ.


Romans 15:8

Jesus completed His task for the Jews, the circumcised, and also for the non-Jew.
In verse 6 Paul is telling the Romans to glorify God in one voice. We are to be ONE BODY. We are to accept one another. In verse 8 Paul is saying that Jesus CONFIRMS the promises made to the fathers. Perhaps the promise that salvavtion would be available through all the nations from Abraham who was made this promise?

Mathew 16:18

?? I don't understand why you included this.

Jesus will build His Church. Nothing can stop HIS Church.

So what have I done the above for?
I thought you were trying to show that Jesus was for the Jew and Paul was for the gentile.

If this was your intent, the above verses do not prove it.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Jews already knew God and were in Covenant with Him, they ate the flesh of the lamb, God protected them and along comes Jesus and He wants them to "eat my flesh, drink my blood" and to enter into Covenant with Him and they left Him in droves. Yes, Jesus had the words of life, Jesus was life but He had a job to do and His ministry was short.

In a nutshell, God became man. The physical Jesus had a purpose, an intention and it was always God's plan from the beginning, Jesus was God's plan and Jesus dies as Adam to recreate Adam at the resurrection. When Jesus was raised from the dead it was God in Christ and Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Good post.
All very beautiful.
What do you think Jesus' purpose was?
Did He have an intention other than the atonement?

 

[Armadillo]

What do you think Jesus' purpose was?
Did He have an intention other than the atonement?

To live His life through us. Relationship.

 

[GodsGrace]

To live His life through us. Relationship.

This is very true Armadillo.
We could also say that we live our life through Him.

But if I asked you to look for some verses stating the above, you wouldn't find any.
Want to give it a try?
Also, you won't find more than 4 or 5 times Jesus even mentions the word "salvation".
You could check that out too.

Jesus' main theme in all of His teachings was the Kingdom of God.
He wants us to live a better life here on earth by creating a Kingdom that starts right here.

He prayed:
Your Kingdom come
On earth
As it is in heaven
Mathew 6:10

The beatitudes were to teach us how we are to behave in order to belong to that Kingdom.
Mathew 5:3-10

He instructed us on how to help one another.
Mathew 25:35-46

This is to take NOTHING AWAY from the atonement.
Just something that most never think about but is true.

 

[Armadillo]

Want to give it a try?

Eternal life!

Have a nice day!

 

[Stranger]

You said that Jesus came to the Jews.

And Paul came after to explain Jesus' mission and to take the gospel to the gentiles.
You could have corrected me if I misunderstood you instead telling me the rest of the words are mine. What I wrote is what I understood you to say.

IF this is what you mean, then, yes, it makes NO SENSE and for the reasons that I stated in my previous post, to which YOU also did not reply.

There's not to much to learn. Jesus was very clear in what HE said. Paul is a bit more difficult to grasp and that's because HE is NOT God. When there is any doubt whatsoever one goes to JESUS not to Paul.

However they do not conflict since the bible is one continuous message from Genesis to Revelation.

So Ephesians 3:1-5

Paul is writing to the gentiles (most probably to different churches and not only the one at Ephesus, if at all) and he's telling them that he is to preach the gospel of Jesus to all the gentiles. Why? Because God's plan of redemption includes everyone, not just the Jews.

He's teling the "Ephesians" that God's mystery has been made clear. And what is the mystery? It's all throught this epistle. EVERYONE is on the same plane with God. Everyone is offered salvation through Christ, everyone gets to share in the promises that God made from the beginning of time. HIS grace, offered to ALL including the right to enter heaven, through Jesus, the Christ.


Romans 15:8

Jesus completed His task for the Jews, the circumcised, and also for the non-Jew.
In verse 6 Paul is telling the Romans to glorify God in one voice. We are to be ONE BODY. We are to accept one another. In verse 8 Paul is saying that Jesus CONFIRMS the promises made to the fathers. Perhaps the promise that salvavtion would be available through all the nations from Abraham who was made this promise?

Mathew 16:18

?? I don't understand why you included this.

Jesus will build His Church. Nothing can stop HIS Church.

So what have I done the above for?
I thought you were trying to show that Jesus was for the Jew and Paul was for the gentile.

If this was your intent, the above verses do not prove it.

Well, I thought I did try and correct your 'in other words' . They were based on your statement in post #85 that I believed Paul but not Jesus. Thus when I said I believed Paul and Jesus, that should have been enough to correct all other statements.

To go back and clarify. Concerning the sealing of the Holy Spirit, I had said that Paul proved it and I gave the verse for it. And I said, Jesus did not have to say anything about it for it to be true as Pauls revelation came from the risen Jesus Christ.

In other words, Paul's gospel of grace came from Jesus Christ. And it had never been known or taught before. (Eph. 3:5) "Which in other ages was not made know unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;" This means what Paul preached was not what Jesus was preaching....because it was not made known before. Jesus came preaching the gospel of the Kingdom. As did John the Baptist and the disciples. (Matt. 3:1-2) (Matt. 4:17) (Matt. 10:5) And this is what Paul was speaking to in (Rom. 15:8) Jesus came to confirm the promises made unto the fathers. This concerned the kingdom promises. That is not the gospel of grace.

Paul had a new revelation given him from the risen Jesus Christ. This is why I said, just because Jesus didn't say anything of the sealing of the Holy Spirit doesn't matter, because Paul's words are a new revelation and from Jesus Christ also. And if Paul said it, it is from God.

I gave you (Matt. 16:18) to show that Christ's Church did not exist yet. Christ said "upon this rock I will build my church". That is future. The coming of the Holy Spirit, the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the believers, the work of the Holy Spirit in making one out of Jew and Gentile, the sealing of the Holy Spirit, was all future at this point. Jesus Christ didn't elaborate on the doctrines that would concern the Church. He left that to the apostles after the Holy Spirit came, but most especially was Paul given the doctrines that govern and help the Church.

So, do you see how there is much confusion if one doesn't know who and what is the subject being addressed in Scripture. To take something Christ said concerning the Kingdom and place it as a law or rule over the Church doesn't work.

Much more can be said, but I feel like I am muddying the water.

Stranger

 

[Armadillo]

Paul's gospel of grace came from Jesus Christ. And it had never been known or taught before. (Eph. 3:5)

The Apostle Paul is crucial to Christianity, the Messiah has come and Jesus is not still in the tomb, He is alive in you. Jesus, raised from the dead, resurrected, raised so you are justified, being savior conscious not sin conscious, Christ in you the hope of glory. It's Good News and over and over in the Epistles Paul promoted a new faith and people thought he was nuts, some still do.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, I thought I did try and correct your 'in other words' . They were based on your statement in post #85 that I believed Paul but not Jesus. Thus when I said I believed Paul and Jesus, that should have been enough to correct all other statements.

To go back and clarify. Concerning the sealing of the Holy Spirit, I had said that Paul proved it and I gave the verse for it. And I said, Jesus did not have to say anything about it for it to be true as Pauls revelation came from the risen Jesus Christ.

In other words, Paul's gospel of grace came from Jesus Christ. And it had never been known or taught before. (Eph. 3:5) "Which in other ages was not made know unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;" This means what Paul preached was not what Jesus was preaching....because it was not made known before. Jesus came preaching the gospel of the Kingdom. As did John the Baptist and the disciples. (Matt. 3:1-2) (Matt. 4:17) (Matt. 10:5) And this is what Paul was speaking to in (Rom. 15:8) Jesus came to confirm the promises made unto the fathers. This concerned the kingdom promises. That is not the gospel of grace.

Paul had a new revelation given him from the risen Jesus Christ. This is why I said, just because Jesus didn't say anything of the sealing of the Holy Spirit doesn't matter, because Paul's words are a new revelation and from Jesus Christ also. And if Paul said it, it is from God.

I gave you (Matt. 16:18) to show that Christ's Church did not exist yet. Christ said "upon this rock I will build my church". That is future. The coming of the Holy Spirit, the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the believers, the work of the Holy Spirit in making one out of Jew and Gentile, the sealing of the Holy Spirit, was all future at this point. Jesus Christ didn't elaborate on the doctrines that would concern the Church. He left that to the apostles after the Holy Spirit came, but most especially was Paul given the doctrines that govern and help the Church.

So, do you see how there is much confusion if one doesn't know who and what is the subject being addressed in Scripture. To take something Christ said concerning the Kingdom and place it as a law or rule over the Church doesn't work.

Much more can be said, but I feel like I am muddying the water.

Stranger

You see Stranger,

I was right the first time.
You're saying right up above that there are TWO gospels,
one that Jesus preached and one that Paul preached.
You're separating what Jesus said and what Paul said.
Paul was referring to the salvation of souls through Jesus
NOT A GOSPEL OF GRACE.

Grace Always existed. God ALWAYS shed His grace on manking.
How could anyone come to know God if not by His grace?

So you believe Jesus built His church on Peter? So you're Catholic and believe Peter was the first Pope?

That is future you said. WHAT IS FUTURE?
Jesus came to build a church. Jesus came to change how we live.
Jesus came to be our atonement.

HE went to the cross, NOT Paul.

You're pitting them against each other.
What do you think Paul said that Jesus DID NOT say?

I have to leave for two days, but if you answer that last question, I'd be interested.
HOW ARE JESUS AND PAUL DIFFERENT?
And IF THE ARE...
WHO do we follow, Jesus or Paul?

GG