Tares Reveal Themselves by what they DON’T Say...And They Are With us Here .How to Identify Them...

[HisLife]

That's right. That's why faith without works is dead. Faith without works can not deliver you into the kingdom of God.

Cart Horse Ferris, If you are born again God works through you and you will have works, You don't work to get into the kingdom of heaven big difference, without God you can do nothing, if God is working through your life and you do have good works it is Gods work and God gets the glory, So why Judge works, its all about Grace by Faith in Jesus, If someone says They have believe and have faith and trust in Jesus to get them home why push they gotta work for it when they cant that themselves anyway

 

[Wynona]

Quite a list you have there, Seriously do you think you can achieve that? There would be no truly saved believers in this world and in this life according to you because you have to endure to the end, The answer is you must be born again, If they are born again they are Gods Children and your list instead of a requirement becomes a way of life and good things but all Glory and honor Goes to Jesus without him you cant do anything

It's not a matter of if its possible. Its the Bible's standard and is accomplished by faith. Christianity has a cost Luke 14:28. And not many people find the right way to be on Matthew 7:13-14.

I notice you haven't said that Im wrong but that Im presenting a standard that is impossible to achieve. Its not easy but it's the standard God has called us to and if it were impossible, we wouldn't be called to do it.

You said well that we must abide in Christ to accomplish anything. On that, we agree.

 

[HisLife]

It's not a matter of if its possible. Its the Bible's standard and is accomplished by faith. Christianity has a cost Luke 14:28. And not many people find the right way to be on Matthew 7:13-14.

I notice you haven't said that Im wrong but that Im presenting a standard that is impossible to achieve. Its not easy but it's the standard God has called us to and if it were impossible, we wouldn't be called to do it.

You said well that we must abide in Christ to accomplish anything. On that, we agree.

The Standard Is perfection And only Jesus Could achieve it, parts of what you say is true It sure does have a cost look at Jesus Dying bleeding beaten body, the cost was huge, Your right not many find the right way, The path is narrow Jesus is the door not many people actually do believe in him, a lot pretend and say they do, Then try and add there own filthy rags, Salvation is not of works good or bad, that's a foundational principle you need to establish

The concepts are fine but if you apply them to earn your salvation you are worse than wrong you would be on your way to hell

Jesus accomplished everything for Salvation, You are Given the gift by Grace through faith in the Gospel, Any abiding you do after that you have the chance to bear fruit, you shouldn't mix salvation and fruit-bearing, when it comes to salvation all you can do is believe it

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Don't put the cart before the horse, You must be born again, that rules out mans devices

But how do you know that person was never born again? How do people like @Blood Bought 1953, for example, know that all legalists were never born again and, therefore, the blood of Christ does not cover their unbelieving legalism? Isn't that being the same unfair, scowly faced judgmental person he says the legalist is?

 

[justbyfaith]

We could start an eternal security debate if you want,

I suppose that we could; but the issue is pretty much settled in my mind; for I have included in my understanding every scripture that pertains to the discussion, as far as I can tell from my participation in past debates.

Do what you want you by your words sicc the mods on me, you done it plenty so do it again I don't mind, its what you do

I have only done it once and it was warranted the way that you were acting.

I don't think its a debate, because Scripture is quite clear,

Yes, quite clear.

No need to. That got settled in the last thread about that.

It did. See what I say about it below.

What I am saying is Scripture cant be but peoples interpretation can be, its not for private interpretation, Scripture interprets scripture

Yes, and private interpretation is eisegesis. I believe in that scripture as it is exegeted properly.

I know and the eternal security position came out rock solid right?

I believe that we discovered that a man can be saved from sin (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:14) but that he is not necessarily saved from an eternal hell if he has a nominal, shallow, or lukewarm faith. And that those who have such a faith, while in essence saved to a certain extent, are capable of falling away (Luke 8:12-13) or being "cut off" (Romans 11:20-22). In the latter scripture, these are people who "stand by faith" (v.20).

But eternal security is for the one who has a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14).

Endure till the end. Matthew 10:12,

It's Matthew 10:22.

There would be no truly saved believers in this world and in this life according to you because you have to endure to the end,

So, you don't think that anyone keeps their faith in Christ to the end of their lives? I know that there are many who have done so.

Cart Horse Ferris, If you are born again God works through you and you will have works, You don't work to get into the kingdom of heaven big difference,

I don't think that he is arguing for the doctrine of salvation by works.

So why Judge works,

Because works are the thing that show forth that someone has a genuine faith. Without them, you ought to question whether you have the faith that saves apart from works (see Philippians 2:12, 2 Peter 1:10, 2 Corinthians 13:5).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

if God is working through your life and you do have good works it is Gods work and God gets the glory, So why Judge works, its all about Grace by Faith in Jesus

Then why is the OP condemning legalists according to their works? They have good works, but the OP has decided those are legalistic and, therefore, don't count. That's judging. How does he know that? And even if they didn't have good works how can he judge they've never been born again, and so the blood doesn't cover their legalism?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I don't think that he is arguing for the doctrine of salvation by works.

You're right I'm not. But people like him instantly think 'works salvation' when you bring up James' faith without works doctrine.

 

[HisLife]

But how do you know that person was never born again? How do people like @Blood Bought 1953, for example, know that all legalists were never born again and, therefore, the blood of Christ does not cover their unbelieving legalism? Isn't that being the same unfair, scowly faced judgmental person he says the legalist is?

It's not my responsibility but it's easy to tell you just go on their words, If they say not all sins well then they are still in their sins and they can't pay the dept themselves and if they are judged they are guilty the bible makes that clear, I look at Blood bought and he gives thanks and glory to Jesus for salvation for what Jesus did for him, You take someone like justbywaterandluckyrepentanceandandtimetraveletc They are backing there ability to endure to the end and put there own repentance alongside the Blood(his words) its as clear as you get, Your words show what's in your heart, If someone believes in Jesus there faith is in Jesus, If someone says he didn't die for all my sins they are dead in there sins, it comes from the heart they confess it

 

[justbyfaith]

The Standard Is perfection And only Jesus Could achieve it,

1) Jesus didn't achieve it, it was His from the beginning; and,

2) He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

I look at Blood bought and he gives thanks and glory to Jesus for salvation for what Jesus did for him, You take someone like justbywaterandluckyrepentanceandandtimetraveletc They are backing there ability to endure to the end and put there own repentance alongside the Blood(his words) its as clear as you get, Your words show what's in your heart,

What does the Bible say about all of these things? is the question you should be asking.

Jesus had teachings; to believe in Him is to believe in what He said also.

You can say that you believe in Jesus and can make up your own version of who Jesus is (see 2 Corinthians 11:3-4). But if you believe in the Jesus of the Bible, you study His teachings, adhere to them, and obey them.

@HisLife, you still have some work to do as concerning this.

 

[HisLife]

So, you don't think that anyone keeps their faith in Christ to the end of their lives? I know that there are many who have done so.

What? Every Christian Does endure to the end how did you turn that around, If you have to endure to the end to be saved you don't have salvation yet...or do you teach double salvation? To me The verse is saying Christians will endure to the end because God is working in them and he who begun a good work will complete it

Yes, and private interpretation is eisegesis. I believe in that scripture as it is exegeted properly.

2 peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation

Like I said scripture interprets scripture

Because works are the thing that show forth that someone had a genuine faith. Without them, you ought to question whether you have the faith that saves apart from works (see Philippians 2:12, 2 Peter 1:10, 2 Corinthians 13:5).

No Works are what fruit inspectors judge on, The ones in the parable didn't know their good works but God saw them, The majority of the work God does in a persons life you wouldn't see, your judging on the outward appearance, The words someone speaks comes from the heart that's a more obvious way to tell if your looking for what the person believes

 

[HisLife]

You're right I'm not. But people like him instantly think 'works salvation' when you bring up James' faith without works doctrine.

So between you two, you know what I think and what I say without even asking me, or hearing me say it, Might as well leave you to it to scheme up whatever you want then...Ill go on your words you go on what you presume, good luck with that

 

[Wynona]

The Standard Is perfection And only Jesus Could achieve it, parts of what you say is true It sure does have a cost look at Jesus Dying bleeding beaten body, the cost was huge, Your right not many find the right way, The path is narrow Jesus is the door not many people actually do believe in him, a lot pretend and say they do, Then try and add there own filthy rags, Salvation is not of works good or bad, that's a foundational principle you need to establish

The concepts are fine but if you apply them to earn your salvation you are worse than wrong you would be on your way to hell

Jesus accomplished everything for Salvation, You are Given the gift by Grace through faith in the Gospel, Any abiding you do after that you have the chance to bear fruit, you shouldn't mix salvation and fruit-bearing, when it comes to salvation all you can do is believe it

I understand what you're saying and no, I wouldn't want to say or even imply that we are saved of works.

Id rather say that obedience is the evidence or the fruit of saving faith. Its not the works that save you, just like fruit on a tree are not the source of the tree's life. Jesus and abiding in Him is the source. Obedience and a lifestyle of increasing Holiness are the evidence that we are saved. James 2:18.

A good tree does not work super hard to produce good fruit. It does so by abiding in the true vine, Jesus Christ.

However, Holiness is not this impossible standard. Without holiness no one will see the Lord Hebrews 12:14.

So if our lives aren't Holy, we must then question whether we're truly abiding in Christ.

I don't think practicing Holiness is the same as earning your salvation. I think the apostles really wanted us to be really sure how to tell if were on the right path or not.

 

[justbyfaith]

If you have to endure to the end to be saved you don't have salvation yet...or do you teach double salvation?

See Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14.

We have (already) become partakers of Christ if we hold fast our faith to the end.

We are partakers of Christ (now) but if we don't endure to the end then we are not partakers of Christ (now).

To me The verse is saying Christians will endure to the end because God is working in them and he who begun a good work will complete it

That is correct, providing that they are a genuine believer.

No Works are what fruit inspectors judge on,

Yes, and we are supposed to inspect the fruits of people (Matthew 7:15-20)

 

[Wynona]

It's Matthew 10:22.

I fixed it

 

[justbyfaith]

Its not the works that save you, just like fruit on a tree are not the source of the tree's life.

I like the way that you set forth that truth, right there.

 

[HisLife]

What does the Bible say about all of these things? is the question you should be asking.

Jesus had teachings; to believe in Him is to believe in what He said also.

You can say that you believe in Jesus and can make up your own version of who Jesus is (see 2 Corinthians 11:3-4). But if you believe in the Jesus of the Bible, you study His teachings, adhere to them, and obey them.

@HisLife, you still have some work to do as concerning this.

Like you do, your Jesus Couldn't even pay for your sins, I want nothing to do with your version of Jesus, The one you think sneaks and when your half-asleep in bed and whispers in your ear, telling you he doesn't need to rehash Jesus Died for sins he just loves you because you choose to be obedient, Lol that's a creepy version

 

[HisLife]

I understand what you're saying and no, I wouldn't want to say or even imply that we are saved of works.

Id rather say that obedience is the evidence or the fruit of saving faith. Its not the works that save you, just like fruit on a tree are not the source of the tree's life. Jesus and abiding in Him is the source. Obedience and a lifestyle of increasing Holiness are the evidence that we are saved. James 2:18.

A good tree does not work super hard to produce good fruit. It does so by abiding in the true vine, Jesus Christ.

However, Holiness is not this impossible standard. Without holiness no one will see the Lord Hebrews 12:14.

So if our lives aren't Holy, we must then question whether we're truly abiding in Christ.

I don't think practicing Holiness is the same as earning your salvation. I think the apostles really wanted us to be really sure how to tell if were on the right path or not.

All the best with your learning and searching, Holiness needs to be imputed not achieved, If you want to live Holy or Try do Good works go for it by why associate them with Salvation, Do it out of Love not to try to earn something, Charity and Wages are opposite, Work as hard as you want but leave Salvation on Jesus, But if your judged by what you did with the Gospel don't go against that, God Purchased the Church with His own Blood, The Blood Of Jesus is the only thing that can take away sins, The only thing, No one should ever deny the Blood or Go against the Gospel, its the worst thing you could ever do and many on this site do it

 

[justbyfaith]

Like you do, your Jesus Couldn't even pay for your sins, I want nothing to do with your version of Jesus, The one you think sneaks and when your half-asleep in bed and whispers in your ear, telling you he doesn't need to rehash Jesus Died for sins he just loves you because you choose to be obedient, Lol that's a creepy version

The foundation of my faith is that Jesus died for me; I don't need to lay that foundation again.

And yes, there is a sense in which Jesus loves me because of my obedience (John 14:21-23).

But of course I am not denying that He loves the whole world in a different sense (John 3:16).

Holiness needs to be imputed not achieved,

Holiness / righteousness is in fact imparted and not only imputed (1 john 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6)

f you want to live Holy or Try do Good works go for it by why associate them with Salvation,

Because we do them as the result of the fact that he has saved us.

Do it out of Love not to try to earn something,

Most definitely, that is faithful.

God Purchased the Church with His own Blood, The Blood Of Jesus is the only thing that can take away sins,

Amen.

 

[Wynona]

All the best with your learning and searching, Holiness needs to be imputed not achieved, If you want to live Holy or Try do Good works go for it by why associate them with Salvation, Do it out of Love not to try to earn something, Charity and Wages are opposite, Work as hard as you want but leave Salvation on Jesus, But if your judged by what you did with the Gospel don't go against that, God Purchased the Church with His own Blood, The Blood Of Jesus is the only thing that can take away sins, The only thing, No one should ever deny the Blood or Go against the Gospel, its the worst thing you could ever do and many on this site do it

Thanks for the kindness of your post. Even if we disagree on how to express certain things, I hope we don't have to be at odds because of it. I feel that too many Christians are divided by doctrine unnecessarily when we can all be hungry for God, unite, and cause revival to happen.

Ill be honest and say that I fall into the camp that thinks OSAS is unbiblical but if we both love Jesus, I hope that's something we can fall back on at the end of the day.

Maybe Im being naive. But Ive literally seen forums ane believers torn apart by doctrinal arguments on salvation and I wish that both sides could somehow come to respect one another even in their disagreement.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

He also will appeal to what popular Christianity teaches as if that were authoritative,[/QUOTE]


Everyone here knows what I preach....”NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD”...NOTHING! That ain't what’s “Popular”......
I preach , “ Jesus Saves, PERIOD!
“Popular Christianity” preaches the following—-“ Why, most ‘ Certainly’, Jesus Saves! ( But once ya know “ that” you gotta do “ Your” Part by repenting of all of your sins —- The Blood just “ might” be Essential—- it just ain’t Adequate by itself...)
I also preach as Paul did....If one ADDS to his Gospel Of Pure Grace with ANYTHING....they are “ Fallen from Grace”....Lets hope that does not mean Damnation.....
One has a choice—— REST in the Gospel Of Grace or God declares you “ Disobedient” and guilty of “ Unbelief”..... He compares such types to the Jews that never entered the “ Promised Land”..... they were forced to suffer in the Wilderness due to their Unbelief.....
That ain’t popular Christianity .Being “ Co-Savior” is popular Christianity——- The Lie Of what YOU do for God ( which is making Christianity just another Religion) as opposed to what God has done for you and Worshiping HIM for what He accomplished at the Cross......