Teaching that predestination was invented by Calvin is a lie

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Arthur81

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The doctrine of predestination, as other Christian doctrine, existed in earlier centuries, but was refined and put into systematized creeds and confessions in the Protestant Reformation, but it clearly existed as belief in the early church as I give a few quotes. To claim it was invented by Calvin is a red herring claimed by the deceitful, and passed on by the ignorant. I give the links so the reader can check the source for themselves.

First Epistle of Clement has been dated 70-140 AD

"5. Who shall say to him what hast thou done, or who shall resist the might of his strength?” When he will, and as he will, he will do all things, and none of his decrees shall pass away."

"1. Let us then approach him in holiness of soul, The raising pure and undefiled hands to him, loving our gracious and merciful Father, who has made us the portion of his choice for himself."

Irenaeus, (130-202 AD)

"But He Himself in Himself, after a fashion which we can neither describe nor conceive, predestinating all things, formed them as He pleased, bestowing harmony on all things, and assigning them their own place, and the beginning of their creation."

"And therefore, when the number [fixed upon] is completed, [that number] which He had predetermined in His own counsel, all those who have been enrolled for life [eternal] shall rise again, having their own bodies, and having also their own souls , and their own spirits,"

"God thus determining all things beforehand for the bringing of man to perfection, for his edification, and for the revelation of His dispensations, that goodness may both be made apparent, and righteousness perfected, and that the Church may be fashioned after the image of His Son, and that man may finally be brought to maturity at some future time, becoming ripe through such privileges to see and comprehend God."

Ignatius of Antioch (died 110 AD)

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church which is at Ephesus in Asia, most deservedly happy, being blessed through the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the world began, that it should be always unto an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and chosen through' his true passion, according to the will of the Father and Jesus Christ our God ; all happiness by Jesus Christ, and his undefiled grace."

St. John Chrysostom (347-407 AD)

"In order then that the greatness of the benefits bestowed may not raise you too high, observe how he brings you down: by grace you have been saved, says he, Through faith; Then, that, on the other hand, our free-will be not impaired, he adds also our part in the work, and yet again cancels it, and adds, And that not of ourselves. Neither is faith, he means, of ourselves. Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? For how, says he, shall they believe, unless they hear? Romans 10:14 So that the work of faith itself is not our own. It is the gift, said he, of God, it is not of works. Was faith then, you will say, enough to save us? No; but God, says he, has required this, lest He should save us, barren and without work at all. His expression is, that faith saves, but it is because God so wills, that faith saves. Since, how, tell me, does faith save, without works? This itself is the gift of God."

Jerome (347-419/420 AD)

"But it could be said too, that those things, which will be done have already been done, decided out of foreknowledge and the predestination of God." Commentary on Eccl. 1:10

St. Augustine (354-430 AD) "On Predestination of the Saints"... refuting the heresy of the Pelagians
READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY I've underlined a part of the heretical Pelagian teaching.

"But these brethren of ours, about whom and on whose behalf we are now discoursing, say, perhaps, that the Pelagians are refuted by this apostolic testimony in which it is said that we are chosen in Christ and predestinated before the foundation of the world, in order that we should be holy and immaculate in His sight in love. For they think that having received God's commands we are of ourselves by the choice of our free will made holy and immaculate in His sight in love; and since God foresaw that this would be the case, they say, He therefore chose and predestinated us in Christ before the foundation of the world. Although the apostle says that it was not because He foreknew that we should be such, but in order that we might be such by the same election of His grace, by which He showed us favour in His beloved Son. When, therefore, He predestinated us, He foreknew His own work by which He makes us holy and immaculate. Whence the Pelagian error is rightly refuted by this testimony. But we say, say they, that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work. But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who works all things. Ephesians 1:11 He, therefore, works the beginning of our belief who works all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance; Romans 11:29 and of which it is said: Not of works, but of Him that calls Romans 9:12 (although He might have said, of Him that believes); and the election which the Lord signified when He said: You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. John 15:16 For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe. But all the many things which we have said concerning this matter need not to be repeated."

The Canons of the Council of Orange, 529 AD

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers. *Admittedly, this includes an earlier belief of baptismal regeneration, but the principle remains about the will of the natural man.

CANON 12. Of what sort we are whom God loves. God loves us for what we shall be by his gift, and not by our own deserving.

CANON 23. Concerning the will of God and of man. Men do their own will and not the will of God when they do what displeases him; but when they follow their own will and comply with the will of God, however willingly they do so, yet it is his will by which what they will is both prepared and instructed.
 
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Hepzibah

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Predestination is in the scriptures. God forordained that some will be perfected, Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

These are the ones who will be entirely sanctified or as the early fathers you quote say in Theosis and has nothing to do with those who will just follow Christ but think themselves the elect.

Deterministic theology was fought against by the early fathers until Augustine came along and brought the pagan philosophy into the church.

Your quotes do not show what you wish. Apart from the heretic Augustine. No wonder you Calvinists love him.
 

Hepzibah

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As far as most believers know, two interpretations of Romans 7 have dominated church history and are, the so called Primitive (pre Christian) and the Post-Primitive (normal Christian). Augustine held to the Primitive in his early years but he changed his position to the Post-Primitive at a later date. The reason that he changed his position was because of the heated discussions with Pelagius. There is another view held from the start but it says that perfection or Theosis is not only possible, but expected 1Cor 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 1Thes 4:3 For this is the will of God even your sanctification 1Peter 1:16 Be ye holy for I am holy.

This view was always held in the minority and was the opposite of the view held by Augustine until he changed to the new third way. There are only three interpretations of Romans 7 and which one we accept shows our whole attitude and position about this important doctrine. It is explaining the struggle of a man before coming to Christ or a man afterwards and the man afterwards, is either unable to stop sinning or perfect or rather, being purified.

The Primitive view is that Romans 7 describes the salvation experience and Paul is writing as an unregenerate soul. Augustine said “It is understood that man is here described who was never under grace” on Romans 7, Homilies. This is the view that Augustine held until Pelagius challenged him over his view that man is totally depraved.

“In his argument, Pelagius referred to the passage under consideration, saying that this was a palpable case in which, by the universal assent of the church, the state and character of the unregenerate man is described. He then asked, if approving the right, and hating the the wrong, and 'delighting in the law of God' did not imply that there was something good even in such a man?

Augustine could not deny the fact, the case being so palable, of the universal agreement of the church in the deduction that it was the unregenerate man referred to in the passage; nor did he perceive how, admitting the correctness of the universally received exposition, he could meet the argument of his opponent. Under such perplexity, Augustine denied the validity of his own and the universal, and adopted the few and before, unheard of, exposition, a most needless resort and a most calamitous one for the spiritual good of the church” J Schmidz (Romans 7)


Augustine did not change to Pelagius’ view:
Pelagius taught that man could stop sinning. Pelagius was trying to show Augustine that Romans 7 was not the so called Primitive view but the Apostolic view.. Augustine realised his first view was untenable that Paul described the unregenerate but the second view was untenable for Augustine because it says that man can indeed stop sinning as we clearly see in Romans 6 and 1 John.

Pelagius taught the Apostolic view which is that Paul is speaking about the (carnal) believer in Romans 7 but is not the normal condition of a man which is the stance Augustine changed to. Those who do not accept the view that it is a (carnal) Christian speaking point to the fact that there is no mention of grace or of the work of the Holy Spirit in the chapter. But this is not because there is no Holy Spirit or grace. Far from it. The opposite is true actually. But the person describing the event is not aware of it. It seems as though God has deserted actually, as the person comes to an extreme point because God is convicting the man of his sinfulness, which is known in revivals.

Paul is discussing experience here not doctrine. He came to a point of time when he saw himself as God saw him as he sought righteousness through the works of the law, even good practices. And all Christians seek to do this unless they adopt Augustines’ position and excuse their sin which is the position held by Calvinists.

In the Bible, salvation sanctification and justification are all one event but describing the differing aspects of it. This means that one is not really saved until they are perfected which is the Orthodox view. Jesus came to save us from our sins and until this is done, then we are still in them and not saved even though we have been given 'The power to become the son's of God' as a possibility but not yet an actuality until the provision of sanctification through the cross, is appropriated by man and he is delivered from not just the penalty from sin but also the power and the presence.


To say that Romans 7 cannot be the experience of a (carnal) Christian only means that the person has not experienced it themselves. Many saints have and this is why they say along with Pelagius that this is the experience of the (carnal) Christian, under the hand of God, being shown the utter utter inability of man to be righteous by obeying His law whilst still in the flesh. The crisis experience described by Paul, has to be gone through in order to come out in Romans 8, walking in the Spirit and pleasing God at last.

This Apostolic view has been rejected by most of the church through the ages and the reason why Pelagius has had such treatment. By his dispute with Augustine and his understanding of Romans 7, it is my contention that he did not teach that the Christian could stop sinning on his own accord. Far from it. It needed the divine interaction of God to bring about the change needed to get Paul from Romans7 to Romans 8.

Perhaps some are misled to think that Pelagius’ denial of original sin means that the man born innocent remains so. This is a presupposition. All men fall just like Adam and become sinners in need of salvation. It is thought that it occurs somewhere around the fourth year of life.
 

Arthur81

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TO THE READER: When you or a family member has a serious medical issue, do you trust every Tom, Dick or Harry you don't know from Adam, who spouts off online? Or, do you pay attention to someone with recognized authority such as the Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, John Hopkins, etc.? Everybody has an opinion, but upon what is it based? It pays to go to the source as much as possible.

When reviewing history, there is a good web site EyeWitness to History - history through the eyes of those who lived it

It is made up of quotes described as: "History through the eyes of those who lived it." It is helpful to work through biases. It is truly said, “History is written by the victors.” It helps to read who wrote what at the time it happened.

I do my best to present recognized and authentic sources that others can check, not merely giving my opinion.
 

Hepzibah

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@Arthur81

On a night when you are lying awake and the thought 'Am I one of the elect?' keeps coming into your mind, don't brush it away, as usual, listen and ask God to show you clearly whether Calvinism is the true gospel. Oh and another tip - don't rely on western takes of Orthodoxy.

(Yes I was a Calvinist)

I have gone through the theological checkable facts of the dispute.
 
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JohnDB

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The doctrine of predestination, as other Christian doctrine, existed in earlier centuries, but was refined and put into systematized creeds and confessions in the Protestant Reformation, but it clearly existed as belief in the early church as I give a few quotes. To claim it was invented by Calvin is a red herring claimed by the deceitful, and passed on by the ignorant. I give the links so the reader can check the source for themselves.

First Epistle of Clement has been dated 70-140 AD

"5. Who shall say to him what hast thou done, or who shall resist the might of his strength?” When he will, and as he will, he will do all things, and none of his decrees shall pass away."

"1. Let us then approach him in holiness of soul, The raising pure and undefiled hands to him, loving our gracious and merciful Father, who has made us the portion of his choice for himself."

Irenaeus, (130-202 AD)

"But He Himself in Himself, after a fashion which we can neither describe nor conceive, predestinating all things, formed them as He pleased, bestowing harmony on all things, and assigning them their own place, and the beginning of their creation."

"And therefore, when the number [fixed upon] is completed, [that number] which He had predetermined in His own counsel, all those who have been enrolled for life [eternal] shall rise again, having their own bodies, and having also their own souls , and their own spirits,"

"God thus determining all things beforehand for the bringing of man to perfection, for his edification, and for the revelation of His dispensations, that goodness may both be made apparent, and righteousness perfected, and that the Church may be fashioned after the image of His Son, and that man may finally be brought to maturity at some future time, becoming ripe through such privileges to see and comprehend God."

Ignatius of Antioch (died 110 AD)

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church which is at Ephesus in Asia, most deservedly happy, being blessed through the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the world began, that it should be always unto an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and chosen through' his true passion, according to the will of the Father and Jesus Christ our God ; all happiness by Jesus Christ, and his undefiled grace."

St. John Chrysostom (347-407 AD)

"In order then that the greatness of the benefits bestowed may not raise you too high, observe how he brings you down: by grace you have been saved, says he, Through faith; Then, that, on the other hand, our free-will be not impaired, he adds also our part in the work, and yet again cancels it, and adds, And that not of ourselves. Neither is faith, he means, of ourselves. Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? For how, says he, shall they believe, unless they hear? Romans 10:14 So that the work of faith itself is not our own. It is the gift, said he, of God, it is not of works. Was faith then, you will say, enough to save us? No; but God, says he, has required this, lest He should save us, barren and without work at all. His expression is, that faith saves, but it is because God so wills, that faith saves. Since, how, tell me, does faith save, without works? This itself is the gift of God."

Jerome (347-419/420 AD)

"But it could be said too, that those things, which will be done have already been done, decided out of foreknowledge and the predestination of God." Commentary on Eccl. 1:10

St. Augustine (354-430 AD) "On Predestination of the Saints"... refuting the heresy of the Pelagians
READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY I've underlined a part of the heretical Pelagian teaching.

"But these brethren of ours, about whom and on whose behalf we are now discoursing, say, perhaps, that the Pelagians are refuted by this apostolic testimony in which it is said that we are chosen in Christ and predestinated before the foundation of the world, in order that we should be holy and immaculate in His sight in love. For they think that having received God's commands we are of ourselves by the choice of our free will made holy and immaculate in His sight in love; and since God foresaw that this would be the case, they say, He therefore chose and predestinated us in Christ before the foundation of the world. Although the apostle says that it was not because He foreknew that we should be such, but in order that we might be such by the same election of His grace, by which He showed us favour in His beloved Son. When, therefore, He predestinated us, He foreknew His own work by which He makes us holy and immaculate. Whence the Pelagian error is rightly refuted by this testimony. But we say, say they, that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work. But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who works all things. Ephesians 1:11 He, therefore, works the beginning of our belief who works all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance; Romans 11:29 and of which it is said: Not of works, but of Him that calls Romans 9:12 (although He might have said, of Him that believes); and the election which the Lord signified when He said: You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. John 15:16 For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe. But all the many things which we have said concerning this matter need not to be repeated."

The Canons of the Council of Orange, 529 AD

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers. *Admittedly, this includes an earlier belief of baptismal regeneration, but the principle remains about the will of the natural man.

CANON 12. Of what sort we are whom God loves. God loves us for what we shall be by his gift, and not by our own deserving.

CANON 23. Concerning the will of God and of man. Men do their own will and not the will of God when they do what displeases him; but when they follow their own will and comply with the will of God, however willingly they do so, yet it is his will by which what they will is both prepared and instructed.

These are late to the party so to speak.

Because you don't understand scriptures. The discussion was a common debate in bethmidrash. Peter asked Jesus (in the Gospel of John) who was correct by asking the "original question" of "Who sinned to cause this man to be born blind?,"

John details out Jesus's answer and then goes on to detail what happened next.

And if you understood the scriptures beyond a flat reading of them you would know what the truth is.

John is the definitive gospel of Theological questions. It's a shame that the insertion of material from Mark 10 got included in John 8 but it doesn't really cover the discussed theology anyway.

Good luck!
 

dev553344

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The doctrine of predestination, as other Christian doctrine, existed in earlier centuries, but was refined and put into systematized creeds and confessions in the Protestant Reformation, but it clearly existed as belief in the early church as I give a few quotes. To claim it was invented by Calvin is a red herring claimed by the deceitful, and passed on by the ignorant. I give the links so the reader can check the source for themselves.

First Epistle of Clement has been dated 70-140 AD

"5. Who shall say to him what hast thou done, or who shall resist the might of his strength?” When he will, and as he will, he will do all things, and none of his decrees shall pass away."

"1. Let us then approach him in holiness of soul, The raising pure and undefiled hands to him, loving our gracious and merciful Father, who has made us the portion of his choice for himself."

Irenaeus, (130-202 AD)

"But He Himself in Himself, after a fashion which we can neither describe nor conceive, predestinating all things, formed them as He pleased, bestowing harmony on all things, and assigning them their own place, and the beginning of their creation."

"And therefore, when the number [fixed upon] is completed, [that number] which He had predetermined in His own counsel, all those who have been enrolled for life [eternal] shall rise again, having their own bodies, and having also their own souls , and their own spirits,"

"God thus determining all things beforehand for the bringing of man to perfection, for his edification, and for the revelation of His dispensations, that goodness may both be made apparent, and righteousness perfected, and that the Church may be fashioned after the image of His Son, and that man may finally be brought to maturity at some future time, becoming ripe through such privileges to see and comprehend God."

Ignatius of Antioch (died 110 AD)

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the church which is at Ephesus in Asia, most deservedly happy, being blessed through the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the world began, that it should be always unto an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and chosen through' his true passion, according to the will of the Father and Jesus Christ our God ; all happiness by Jesus Christ, and his undefiled grace."

St. John Chrysostom (347-407 AD)

"In order then that the greatness of the benefits bestowed may not raise you too high, observe how he brings you down: by grace you have been saved, says he, Through faith; Then, that, on the other hand, our free-will be not impaired, he adds also our part in the work, and yet again cancels it, and adds, And that not of ourselves. Neither is faith, he means, of ourselves. Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? For how, says he, shall they believe, unless they hear? Romans 10:14 So that the work of faith itself is not our own. It is the gift, said he, of God, it is not of works. Was faith then, you will say, enough to save us? No; but God, says he, has required this, lest He should save us, barren and without work at all. His expression is, that faith saves, but it is because God so wills, that faith saves. Since, how, tell me, does faith save, without works? This itself is the gift of God."

Jerome (347-419/420 AD)

"But it could be said too, that those things, which will be done have already been done, decided out of foreknowledge and the predestination of God." Commentary on Eccl. 1:10

St. Augustine (354-430 AD) "On Predestination of the Saints"... refuting the heresy of the Pelagians
READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY I've underlined a part of the heretical Pelagian teaching.

"But these brethren of ours, about whom and on whose behalf we are now discoursing, say, perhaps, that the Pelagians are refuted by this apostolic testimony in which it is said that we are chosen in Christ and predestinated before the foundation of the world, in order that we should be holy and immaculate in His sight in love. For they think that having received God's commands we are of ourselves by the choice of our free will made holy and immaculate in His sight in love; and since God foresaw that this would be the case, they say, He therefore chose and predestinated us in Christ before the foundation of the world. Although the apostle says that it was not because He foreknew that we should be such, but in order that we might be such by the same election of His grace, by which He showed us favour in His beloved Son. When, therefore, He predestinated us, He foreknew His own work by which He makes us holy and immaculate. Whence the Pelagian error is rightly refuted by this testimony. But we say, say they, that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work. But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who works all things. Ephesians 1:11 He, therefore, works the beginning of our belief who works all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance; Romans 11:29 and of which it is said: Not of works, but of Him that calls Romans 9:12 (although He might have said, of Him that believes); and the election which the Lord signified when He said: You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. John 15:16 For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe. But all the many things which we have said concerning this matter need not to be repeated."

The Canons of the Council of Orange, 529 AD

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers. *Admittedly, this includes an earlier belief of baptismal regeneration, but the principle remains about the will of the natural man.

CANON 12. Of what sort we are whom God loves. God loves us for what we shall be by his gift, and not by our own deserving.

CANON 23. Concerning the will of God and of man. Men do their own will and not the will of God when they do what displeases him; but when they follow their own will and comply with the will of God, however willingly they do so, yet it is his will by which what they will is both prepared and instructed.
No I don't think pre-destination was invented by Calvin. it's not entirely true either.

Man was created and God knows how we will do in this life, which is why he sent his son, to save us from our sins. When we will be resurrected we will be given new bodies like that of angels, we will be different and better.

But just because God created us and we will do as God knows we will do does not mean that we don't have a choice in this life. In fact we can ask God to help us choose better with the power of the Holy Spirit and God's infinite wisdom and knowledge. And in asking our natural destinies can be changed.
 
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Arthur81

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These are late to the party so to speak.

Because you don't understand scriptures. The discussion was a common debate in bethmidrash. Peter asked Jesus (in the Gospel of John) who was correct by asking the "original question" of "Who sinned to cause this man to be born blind?,"

John details out Jesus's answer and then goes on to detail what happened next.

And if you understood the scriptures beyond a flat reading of them you would know what the truth is.

John is the definitive gospel of Theological questions. It's a shame that the insertion of material from Mark 10 got included in John 8 but it doesn't really cover the discussed theology anyway.

Good luck!
Concerning the beth midrash -

"Early rabbinic literature, including the Mishnah, makes mention of the beth midrash as an institution distinct from the beth din and Sanhedrin. It was meant as a place of Torah study and interpretation, as well as the development of halakha (the practical application of the Jewish Law).

The origin of the beth midrash, or house of study, can be traced to the early rabbinic period, following the Siege of Jerusalem (70 CE) in which the destruction of the Temple took place. The earliest known rabbinical school was established by Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai at Yavne. Other official schools were soon established under different rabbis. These men traced their ideological roots back to the rabbis of the late Second Temple period, specifically the Houses of Hillel and Shammai, two schools of thought.

By late antiquity, the beth midrash had developed along with the synagogue into a distinct though somewhat related institution. The main difference between the beth midrash and beth hakeneset (synagogue) is that the beth hakeneset is sanctified for prayer only and that even the study of Torah would violate its sanctity while in the beth midrash both Torah study and prayer are allowed. For this reason most synagogues designate their sanctuary as a beth midrash so that in addition to prayer the study of the Torah would also be permitted."

"Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, and they conspired to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him. But they said, 'Not during the festival, or there may be a riot among the people.'” (Matt 26:3-5, NRSV)

"Now the chief priests and the whole council were looking for false testimony against Jesus so that they might put him to death," (Matt 26:59, NRSV)

How absurd! To seek biblical knowledge from those Christ rejecting Jews who sought to put Jesus to death is blasphemous! I have no respect for Judaizers. Jesus exposed the false knowledge of the Pharisees of His day, and the Apostle Paul said Judaizers are to be accursed.
 

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No I don't think pre-destination was invented by Calvin. it's not entirely true either.

Man was created and God knows how we will do in this life, which is why he sent his son, to save us from our sins. When we will be resurrected we will be given new bodies like that of angels, we will be different and better.

But just because God created us and we will do as God knows we will do does not mean that we don't have a choice in this life. In fact we can ask God to help us choose better with the power of the Holy Spirit and God's infinite wisdom and knowledge. And in asking our natural destinies can be changed.
The reason they we ask, is our being born again happens before our confession of faith.
Holy Spirit Regeneration before our acknowledgement of Christ in us and confessing Him as Lord.

When regenerated we have the love of God in us which is His word abiding in us from that time forward.
We are regenerated by His word and His love and this is only for those He has foreknown as His.
Otherwise we are unwilling to come to Him and have life.
One proof is in John 3, other in John 5, as in this here


36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

And John 8

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have [n]seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
 
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42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me,

But they refused Christ when He came to them as God was not their Father, meaning they were not born of God.

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
---------------------------

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

People born of the flesh have children are also born of the flesh, flesh begets flesh

the way God has children is they are born of the Spirit of God
God's Spirit makes us his children when born of the Spirit of God and those are who He saves, His family.

They can then, see Christ as their savior, otherwise they won't understand who Christ is
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
 
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45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Again if you are not of God having God as your Father, and you can only have God as your Father by being born of God, then you will not listen to Jesus Christ.

Not being born again, is why people do not believe in Christ, as God is not their Father
 
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Behold

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The NT (Paul) Teaches that once the person is BORN AGAIN... they are "Pre-destined" to be "conformed into the image of Christ.""

Calvin rewrote this verse as His Satanic..."Predested to be elected" or "predestined to be saved or lost" = before you are born....
And if you are one of Calvin's Born to go to Hell, ("predestined non-elect") or if your mother is this one, or your grandmother, then they are born, without any chance to believe in Jesus.... according to John Calvin's Satanic Theology.

Also, ask any deceived Calvinist on this forum, or on any forum... = "why is it that ALL of your family is "predestined to go to heaven".???
How is is that ALL OF YOUR FAMILY were "predestined", yet, you teach that some on this forum and their family are hell bound, by "pre-destination".

Give that question to Ronald Nolette and Brightframe and Episkopos.... a few other Hyper Calvinist's .... and watch them try to defend their Satanic "Calvinism"... Theology of Devils.

Its good for a LAUGH..... It good to teach you just how strong is the Devi's power to deceive people...even believers.

Notice what these Calvin Worshiping LIARS will tell you about that one....

So, that is Satanic John Calvinism, teaching that maybe YOU or YOUR FAMILY... are BORN TO BURN, and have no chance to go to heaven... while ALL of their family is "predestined ELECT" ... without a DOUBT.

A.) Calvinism is : of the DEVIL

CALVINS's = Theology denies the Cross of Christ, and Rejects the Gift of Salvation, and blasphemes the Holy Spirit, as do they when they TEACH JOHN CALVINISM : as FALSE "Christianity".

Avoid it.
Get away from it.
Avoid people who teach it as their CULT of Calvinism.
it will ruin your faith, for life., once it owns your mind = as it is a spiritual "bewitching".

Or as PAUL TEACHES.. "WHO WHO WHO... has BEWITCHED YOU, that you NO LONGER OBEY THE TRUTH">

One of these BEWITCHERS, is :
John Calvin

A.) = Never let this doctrine of devil's into your mind or family or church.
 
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Arthur81

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Election: traditionally known as Predestination
For you are a people holy to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on earth to be his people, his treasured possession. It was not because you were more numerous than any other people that the LORD set his heart on you and chose you—for you were the fewest of all peoples. It was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath that he swore to your ancestors, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. (Deut 7:6-8, NRSV)

Know, then, that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to occupy because of your righteousness; for you are a stubborn people. (Deut 9:6, NRSV)

Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; (John 6:37, NRSV)

Since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. (John 17:2, NRSV)

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers. (Acts 13:48, NRSV)

Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, not by works but by his call) she was told, “The elder shall serve the younger.” ...So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses. (Rom 9:11-12, 18, NRSV)

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Rom 9:22-24, NRSV)

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace...That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. (Rom 11:5-6, 20 NRSV)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace that he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. (Eph 1:3-6, NRSV)

We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe. (2Thess 2:13, REB)

Who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, (2Tim 1:9, NRSV)

All who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. (Rev 13:8, RSV)

Observations about Predestination, common thoughts or questions:

Fatalism is based on belief in a Fate, which is a power that some people believe controls and decides everything that happens, in a way that cannot be prevented, changed or affected by the human will.

Determinism is the philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision, is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs, everything is based on prior conditions and is unchangeable, etc.

Predestination is a determinism which recognizes God's decree and providence, which can and does work through man's will, which will God redeems from the bondage of the sin nature. Examples from 3 verses:

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48, NRSV)

"A certain woman named Lydia, a worshiper of God, was listening to us; she was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul." (Acts 16:14, NRSV)

"It is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil 2:13, NRSV)

Predestination is a comfort, not a frightful matter. Our salvation is based on God and his unchangeable will and plan, not our fickle human nature that is changeable, and has its ups and downs. If salvation is 100% of God we have a basis to pray to God for the salvation of others (if salvation is of human will, we'd pray to the human). If a person fears his own situation in election, it is a powerful sign he is indeed one of God's elect and he will be brought to faith by God's power. Religious opposition to the Biblical doctrine of predestination, unmerited election; is oftten from religious people who wish to attribute salvation in some degree to man's will, not God's will. The reprobate cares nothing about election and God, so he does not discuss it except as he scoffs and belittles it.

Man has FREE AGENCY, meaning he is responsible for his every decision and is not coerced from without; but, FREE WILL is impossible because man is fallen, has a sin nature which affects his decisions keeping him from being truly free; therefore as Martin Luther titles his book, man's will is in bondage, to his sinful nature and only God can make us willing.
 
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Behold

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FREE WILL is impossible because man is fallen,

Stop teaching John Calvin's lies.

Here is the fact, for you to understand.

The reason you are HERE, reading.....is because you have the Free Will to do so.. as you could be out chopping wood or using a GYM.

Your FREE WILL, is = CHOICE.

CHOICE< is Free Will.

Figure this out, @Augustin56 , as by trying to do so, you ARE using your FREE WILL.
 

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Stop teaching John Calvin's lies.

Here is the fact, for you to understand.

The reason you are HERE, reading.....is because you have the Free Will to do so.. as you could be out chopping wood or using a GYM.

Your FREE WILL, is = CHOICE.

CHOICE< is Free Will.

Figure this out, @Augustin56 , as by trying to do so, you ARE using your FREE WILL.
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will." (2Tim 2:24-26 RSV)
 

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From Outlines of Theology by A. A. Hodge(Presbyterian); being the theological textbook used by Charles Spurgeon in his school for his preacher boys.

ROMISH DOCTRINE.—" Council of Trent," Sess. 5. Can. 2.—"If
any one shall assert that the apostasy of Adam injured himself alone and
not his posterity; and that he lost the sanctity and righteousness received
from God, for himself alone and not also for us, his posterity, or that the
stain which results from the sin of disobedience, death, and physical evils
only have overflowed over the whole human race, and not also sin which
is the disease of the soul— anathema sit. " Ib., Sess. and Cap. 1. "The
Holy Synod declares that in order properly to understand the doctrine of
justification it is necessary that every one should acknowledge and
confess that since all men lost their innocence in the apostasy of Adam, so
that . . . . they are servants of sin, under the power of the devil and of
death . . . nevertheless in them free will is by no means extinct although it
is weakened as to its strength and biased." Ib., Sess. 6., Can. 5.—"If any
one shall say that the free will of man has been lost and extinguished in
consequence of the sin of Adam. . . . anathema sit.
" Can. 7.—"If any one
shall say that all works performed by a man anterior to justification
(regeneration), from whatever reason performed, are true sins which
merit the hatred of God, or that the more vehemently one may strive to
dispose himself to grace, only the more grievously he sins—anathema sit."

Why don't the advocates of free will among evangelicals in this day just go back to the Roman Catholic Church where they would fit on 'free will'. The Theological Textbook I've quoted is on in full online and is an excellent presentation of Christian theology.
 

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Philippians 1, God and Christ grant knowing Themselves to whom He will according to His purpose and will, not our will
Here we read God grants our belief in Christ for the sake of His Son.

27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel,

28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but [f]to you of salvation, and that from God.

29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

And this fits in with Romans 8 describing foreknown predestined by God persons.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 

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WHO HAS ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY?

"Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases." (Ps 115:3 NRSV)

"For I know that the LORD is great; our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the LORD pleases he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps." (Ps 135:5-6 NRSV)

"I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored the one who lives forever. For his sovereignty is an everlasting sovereignty, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does what he wills with the host of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth. There is no one who can stay his hand or say to him, 'What are you doing?'" (Dan 4:34-35 NRSV)

"Let all the earth fear the LORD; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm. The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations." (Ps 33:8-11 NRSV)

"When he decides, who can turn him from his purpose? What he desires, he does. Whatever he determines for me, that he carries out; his mind is full of plans like these." (Job 23:13-14 REB)

"For in this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." (Acts 4:27-28 NRSV)

Whose will is sovereign?

Declarations from the Lord GOD:
"I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the countries, and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will save you from all your uncleannesses, and I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you." (Ezek 36:24-29 NRSV)

"To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." (1Tim 1:17 NRSV)