Tell me what is loveable about such a God

[bbyrd009]

"because so far you’ve evaded all my questions concerning the verses that you ignore."

wonder how many times he's heard that one lol

 

[ScottA]

Yes, it’s become obvious that you don’t see the need to argue with me, because so far you’ve evaded all my questions concerning the verses that you ignore. And again you do the very thing you accuse me of. Fragments of scriptures, eh?

So, this time you throw the fragment of the “son of perdition” at me rather than actually ansering my post. Which one do you mean? Judas Ischariot, the most tragic figure in the New Testament? Or that ominous eschatological figure mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2? Never mind, it’s a long time since I read the New Testament in Greek, but I can still run a wordsearch and lo and behold: the very word that describes their being lost is used in the Parable of the Lost Coin and the Parable of the Lost Son. Both, the coin and the son, were eventually found. Judas probably indeed wished he had never been born, when he was “seized with remorse” and hanged himself (Matthew 27:3-5). And yet all of us would still be lost had he not done the part that God assigned for him in the passion of Christ. So why do you not allow yourself to assume that Judas was included when Christ prayed for the forgiveness of those who crucified Him? Just because you can’t forgive him, you can't believe the Lamb of God may have carried his sin as well as yours? How are we any better? The Bible tells us that all of us once were children of the devil or children of wrath and that it’s not our own doing that we’re not anymore (Ephesians 2:1-9).


You boldly claim to speak God’s truth when all you do is reading the Bible through the lense of your own tradition. Granted: all of us are prone to that, Catholics and Protestants alike, and granted: tradition isn’t necessarily wrong. But we do good to doublecheck. And when trying to make sense of Scripture we do good to be humble and pray that “the peace of God, which transcends all understanding”, will guard our hearts and our minds in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4:7) And I’m sorry to say that you don’t come across as that guarded to me. See, when we hear Jesus talking about Gehenna this should make us work out our own salvation in fear and trembling, to realize the gravity of our own sin and help us by the grace of Christ to do better in future. When it leads us to pray like the Pharisee rather than the tax-collector in Luke 18,9–14, we’ve totally missed Christ’s Point and nothing has been revealed to us.

First, I did not receive what I have from God via any tradition, but directly from God.

But you speak of things you do not understand and you are critical of anything but your own understanding, which is apparently from the confounded word of scripture according to your own interpretation, wherein you are reluctant to believe all, but are prone to your own approval.

If you did not speak so, I would have more to say to you, but it is obvious you cannot bear it. Therefore, you are limited to taking up your prejudice and doing your time, against your brothers who have their own prejudice also. This is pride, and it stifles the truth. "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Meanwhile, if you would like to resume slowly, one passage at a time, perhaps we can make some progress. But don't assume that I did not already tell you the truth, just because you were not ready to hear it. You decide.

 

[tabletalk]

First, I did not receive what I have from God via any tradition, but directly from God.

But you speak of things you do not understand and you are critical of anything but your own understanding, which is apparently from the confounded word of scripture according to your own interpretation, wherein you are reluctant to believe all, but are prone to your own approval.

If you did not speak so, I would have more to say to you, but it is obvious you cannot bear it. Therefore, you are limited to taking up your prejudice and doing your time, against your brothers who have their own prejudice also. This is pride, and it stifles the truth. "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Meanwhile, if you would like to resume slowly, one passage at a time, perhaps we can make some progress. But don't assume that I did not already tell you the truth, just because you were not ready to hear it. You decide.

When you say 'directly from God' , do you mean from the Scriptures or, possibly, a special revelation?

 

[ScottA]

When you say 'directly from God' , do you mean from the Scriptures or, possibly, a special revelation?

I did not know God, nor had any church upbringing or influence, but after a series of events and downward spiral coming to the end of myself, I called out by chance that there was a God - and He answered. I was caught up above the earth and my every question answered. As quickly as I was caught up, I was also returned, and He lead me to a Bible, where He confirmed Himself, my experience, and His word. I was changed, and what I know, I know from God.

 

[tabletalk]

I did not know God, nor had any church upbringing or influence, but after a series of events and downward spiral coming to the end of myself, I called out by chance that there was a God - and He answered. I was caught up above the earth and my every question answered. As quickly as I was caught up, I was also returned, and He lead me to a Bible, where He confirmed Himself, my experience, and His word. I was changed, and what I know, I know from God.

OK, you passed the test!
I appreciate your reply.
Bob

 

[junobet]

First, I did not receive what I have from God via any tradition, but directly from God.

But you speak of things you do not understand and you are critical of anything but your own understanding, which is apparently from the confounded word of scripture according to your own interpretation, wherein you are reluctant to believe all, but are prone to your own approval.

If you did not speak so, I would have more to say to you, but it is obvious you cannot bear it. Therefore, you are limited to taking up your prejudice and doing your time, against your brothers who have their own prejudice also. This is pride, and it stifles the truth. "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Meanwhile, if you would like to resume slowly, one passage at a time, perhaps we can make some progress. But don't assume that I did not already tell you the truth, just because you were not ready to hear it. You decide.

Well, what can I say? Can’t argue with a prophet, can I?

 

[mjrhealth]

So if the Lord doesn’t want “anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9), I trust that He will achieve just that, even though it may take some time.

I do believe that we have short changed God , this may give us a clue,

Luk_14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

God would never have started this if He couldnt finish it, that would make Him worse than us, but still we have free will. You are a lutheran, why because you have free will and have chosen to follow there doctrines, there rules , there hierarchy , its not Gods choosing, it is your own. If God had His way, you right now would walk out of there and follow Christ, but your free will keeps you in your religion. And so we have a choice to believe God and accept our Lords work or reject it. Judas had a choice, God knew His heart, He knows the hearts of all men, but still Judas choose to to turn his back on Jesus, it is not Gods doing. So you see here you are using your free will to tell us we dont have free will. Quite funny when you think about it. And yes I believe even Judas was forgiven as we all are, as to whether he is with Christ we will find out in the end.

 

[mjrhealth]

Well, what can I say? Can’t argue with a prophet, can I?

Revelation from God does not a prophet make, its how He is building His church, and the reason why there are so few in it.

 

[junobet]

I do believe that we have short changed God , this may give us a clue,

Luk_14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

God would never have started this if He couldnt finish it, that would make Him worse than us, but still we have free will. You are a lutheran, why because you have free will and have chosen to follow there doctrines, there rules , there hierarchy , its not Gods choosing, it is your own. If God had His way, you right now would walk out of there and follow Christ, but your free will keeps you in your religion. And so we have a choice to believe God and accept our Lords work or reject it. Judas had a choice, God knew His heart, He knows the hearts of all men, but still Judas choose to to turn his back on Jesus, it is not Gods doing. So you see here you are using your free will to tell us we dont have free will. Quite funny when you think about it. And yes I believe even Judas was forgiven as we all are, as to whether he is with Christ we will find out in the end.

Actually I’m a Lutheran because I happen to have been born into a German Protestant family and that is the religious tradition I grew up with. I became a Christian because God granted me an experience of personal conversion when I was about 4 years old. I don’t think I had any choice in the matter. Which correlates with what the Gospel of John tells us:

“11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God – 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.”

As for Judas: “Satan entered into him” (John 13:27). Why did God let that happen and why did Jesus know that Judas would betray Him, but took no action to stop him? “so that Scripture would be fulfilled“ (John 17:12).

However, while we don’t agree on free will, I’m glad to hear that we do agree on forgiveness.

 

[mjrhealth]

However, while we don’t agree on free will, I’m glad to hear that we do agree on forgiveness.

If we had no free will, there would be no hate, no murder, no crime, no wars, no religion, because God is love and if we where created with no free will, all we would be able to do is love, so you see we war because we choose, we hate because we choose, we fight because we choose,it is not Gods doing, as it is not His will that we do these things, as I said, you choose to be a lutheran, just as many on here choose to be catholics or protestants, it is not Gods doing, it is mans free will, Christ is not divided, but men are by there religions. I choose to follow Christ because to me there are no other options.Life or death, I choose life, which is in Him alone.

 

[junobet]

If we had no free will, there would be no hate, no murder, no crime, no wars, no religion, because God is love and if we where created with no free will, all we would be able to do is love, so you see we war because we choose, we hate because we choose, we fight because we choose,it is not Gods doing, as it is not His will that we do these Things

Maybe God created us with imperfections because He is true Love and true Love will love others in spite of their imperfections, it will even love its enemies and it will be willing to suffer for those that it loves.

, as I said, you choose to be a lutheran, just as many on here choose to be catholics or protestants, it is not Gods doing, it is mans free will, Christ is not divided, but men are by there religions.

I’ll give you that I’m still Lutheran, because when I became old and educated enough to reason for myself, I found many of Luther’s doctrines more convincing than those of Erasmus of Rotterdam for example. However, I’m realistic and humble enough, to admit that, had I been brought up in a different religious tradition, the outcome of my reasoning may well have been an entirely different one. Like it or not, we’re very much the product of our upbringing and socialisation.

I choose to follow Christ because to me there are no other options.Life or death, I choose life, which is in Him alone.

“You did not choose me, but I chose you “ (John 15:16a)

 

[ScottA]

Well, what can I say? Can’t argue with a prophet, can I?

My praise is to God, and I do hope we can speak as brothers and in the love of Christ.

 

[mjrhealth]

Maybe God created us with imperfections because He is true Love and true Love will love others in spite of their imperfections, it will even love its enemies and it will be willing to suffer for those that it loves.

No we where created in the image of God, perfect. we became imperfect when we fell, corruption came in and now we live for 70 years instead of 700.

I’ll give you that I’m still Lutheran, because when I became old and educated enough to reason for myself, I found many of Luther’s doctrines more convincing than those of Erasmus of Rotterdam for example. However, I’m realistic and humble enough, to admit that, had I been brought up in a different religious tradition, the outcome of my reasoning may well have been an entirely different one. Like it or not, we’re very much the product of our upbringing and socialisation.

Well i had to walk away from it all, when I discovered that the only truth is in Jesus, you ,may find smatterings of truth in church, but most of it is just mens wisdom, mens doctrines, mens tradition. and most of that has little to do with God.

“You did not choose me, but I chose you “ (John 15:16a)

That HE did, but we still need to choose to stay with Him..

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

So ill hold onto teh one who is life.

 

[bbyrd009]

I was caught up above the earth and my every question answered.

um, you don't see any problem here, iow

 

[ScottA]

um, you don't see any problem here, iow

Only that you have referred to some perceived problem that you have not explained or made clear.

 

[Marymog]

Do you believe that God would burn someone in hell forever for simply not believing in him? I'm amazed at how many Christians and Muslims actually believe that.

Mark 16:16

 

[bbyrd009]

Only that you have referred to some perceived problem that you have not explained or made clear.

well, tbh i'm not sure it is my place to do that, but i perceive only witnesses in the Book against this, and not for it. Doesn't mean that witnesses for do not exist though, ok, just that witnesses would help your case here

 

[ScottA]

well, tbh i'm not sure it is my place to do that, but i perceive only witnesses in the Book against this, and not for it. Doesn't mean that witnesses for do not exist though, ok, just that witnesses would help your case here

What witness or witnesses against are you referring to?

 

[bbyrd009]

What witness or witnesses against are you referring to?

well, i meant Scripture vv there, but any that might help your case, ppl or links or, particularly, Scripture

 

[ScottA]

well, i meant Scripture vv there, but any that might help your case, ppl or links or, particularly, Scripture

Well, I have done so exhaustively over a great amount of time. But you were referring to scripture "against" what I have just said, so I am asking you to point it out.