Tell me what is loveable about such a God

[Miss Hepburn]

You put it correctly, in that because they have not examined the evidence for God, they believe there is no God.
This is a choice on their part.

In their scientific minds,....they would say they have indeed investigated!
Oh boy would they! And it is us that is deluded and haven't done the investigating
that we
are believing in pure fantasy and have no proof.
Proof is a big would for atheists that care enough to debate.
Some dont...they don' care what anyone believes in...I like those kind of atheists as friends much better

 

[Butterfly]

God killed people in the Old Testament, but he did it quickly, there was no torturing the people for ever...

Yes, I recognise that there is a vast difference between suffering through the process of death and suffering an eternity - your post came across as seeing only a loving God, I was merely pointing out that in the Old Testament we see judgment, and sometimes in harsh ways.
I am not so sure all death was quick by the way, and some of it was very violent.
Also please remember that I have also said that I have my doubts about how hell has been interpreted over the years but , as I have also said, I believe in a just God, one that understands eternity and all that will happen. In many respects it is completely out of any of our control anyway. The truth is I believe in God. I do not understand everything that will unfold, but I trust God.
Butterfly

 

[junobet]

Before the foundation of the world, we all had "freewill" to choose, and we did - it was our choice, and those who will suffer, chose suffering instead of love. You, obviously chose love. But many did not. The "good news" is that what happens here during this enactment of what is written of that moment in the twinkling of and eye when we exercised our God given freewill...is retroactive - one can literally change their mind. Isn't God good and gracious!

So, if you want those who chose death and suffering over life everlasting and love, not to suffer - tell them...as I have told you.

God want none to suffer. He want everyone to be saved but ultimately it is our choice.

trump first lets talk about what is lovable able a God that that tortures people. God does not choose who is tortured. according to the bible all have sinned and thus deserve eternal damnation. but God in His mercy and grace offered us a way to save us from eternal damnation(or eternal torture) by sacrificing His Son for us which allowed Jesus to take all the sins of the wold upon Himself. you all probably know this already. God though will not take away our freedom of choice/freewill.

It may be the Lutheran in me, but I think you’re taking “free will” too far here. You are basically depicting man as the master of his own salvation. IMHO we can’t choose or deny our own salvation. It’s entirely in God’s hands. Should He will us to perish, we’ll perish; should He will to save us, we’ll be saved.

Free will is a merely a human doctrine. I see the usefulness of this concept for daily life and I’m all for granting children as much free will as possible so that they can learn from their own mistakes and develop their own personality. But even the most Hippie-parent will stop their child from running in front of a car, if they can. And God surely can, with Him “all things are possible” (Matthew 19:25-26).

 

[bbyrd009]

In their scientific minds,....they would say they have indeed investigated!
Oh boy would they! And it is us that is deluded and haven't done the investigating
that we
are believing in pure fantasy and have no proof.
Proof is a big would for atheists that care enough to debate.
Some dont...they don' care what anyone believes in...I like those kind of atheists as friends much better

scientists generally seem to end up with a much better perspective of "Unknown God" than believers, weird as that seems.
Of course @ works meet for rebound they are on the same bell-curve as any group, i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

eternity

we have settled on a really bad def of Eternity imo, one that somehow conflates infinity with dwelling or something, when we cannot provide any examples of this, so it becomes merely something that we are hoping or wishing is true. Doctrines like "Adam and Eve would have lived forever if they had not sinned," and etc, ridiculous conclusions iow, derive from this definition imo.

i suggest getting a different definition of "eternity" than that provided by religious institution, maybe something closer to "as long as this happens, that will always happen" or something like that. "This concept will forever hold true."
"Eternal" and its derivatives have been inserted into translations instead of "eon," surely a much better way to understand the concept that the Bible means, at least where humans are concerned imo

"partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting."
Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

"an age, a cycle of time
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity."
Strong's Greek: 165. αἰών (aión) -- a space of time, an age

see, somehow eternal got turned into infinity, when that is likely not what was meant at all; we just have an overwhelming desire for it to be the truth, so it becomes the truth
@Stranger

 

[Windmillcharge]

I don't think Muslims and Hindus and non-christians know they are living a lie... I think Muhammad really believed he was a prophet from God and many people really believe that and are brainwashed into thinking that... They are not at fault.

Ignorance of the law of the land is not an excuse. That applies to us now, it also applies to us when we stand before God, as it says in Romans, we are all without excuse for creation proclaims there is a God.

As Jesus said if we seek him we will find him.

 

[ScottA]

It may be the Lutheran in me, but I think you’re taking “free will” too far here. You are basically depicting man as the master of his own salvation. IMHO we can’t choose or deny our own salvation. It’s entirely in God’s hands. Should He will us to perish, we’ll perish; should He will to save us, we’ll be saved.

Free will is a merely a human doctrine. I see the usefulness of this concept for daily life and I’m all for granting children as much free will as possible so that they can learn from their own mistakes and develop their own personality. But even the most Hippie-parent will stop their child from running in front of a car, if they can. And God surely can, with Him “all things are possible” (Matthew 19:25-26).

This is the more pure truth as I know it too. Yet, freewill is a major factor in God remaining holy in the judgement. It is not plausible deniability for God, but rather that He is simply able [by design] to remain "above" all evil. But, you are correct, and we should not give the wrong impression - but say with all confidence: Make no mistake, in spite of God given freewill, it is God's own will that chooses to divide light from darkness.

 

[bbyrd009]

make no mistake, God does nothing in the physical plane without a human's permission!

Ignorance of the law of the land is not an excuse. That applies to us now

keeping the law is not the same as being under the law

and the diff should be reflected upon here imo

 

[Butterfly]

we have settled on a really bad def of Eternity imo, one that somehow conflates infinity with dwelling or something, when we cannot provide any examples of this, so it becomes merely something that we are hoping or wishing is true. Doctrines like "Adam and Eve would have lived forever if they had not sinned," and etc, ridiculous conclusions iow, derive from this definition imo.

i suggest getting a different definition of "eternity" than that provided by religious institution, maybe something closer to "as long as this happens, that will always happen" or something like that. "This concept will forever hold true."
"Eternal" and its derivatives have been inserted into translations instead of "eon," surely a much better way to understand the concept that the Bible means, at least where humans are concerned imo

"partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting."
Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

"an age, a cycle of time
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity."
Strong's Greek: 165. αἰών (aión) -- a space of time, an age

see, somehow eternal got turned into infinity, when that is likely not what was meant at all; we just have an overwhelming desire for it to be the truth, so it becomes the truth
@Stranger

Hmmm, I will have to think about that, never considered eternity not actually meaning ' forever '
Never questioned it to be honest !

 

[bbyrd009]

it just becomes clear at some point that no one has a vested interest in telling you truth,
except possibly your parents, and they are likely as conflicted as anyone else

 

[junobet]

This is the more pure truth as I know it too. Yet, freewill is a major factor in God remaining holy in the judgement. It is not plausible deniability for God, but rather that He is simply able [by design] to remain "above" all evil. But, you are correct, and we should not give the wrong impression - but say with all confidence: Make no mistake, in spite of God given freewill, it is God's own will that chooses to divide light from darkness.

Yes, the concept of free will was first developed to explain the problem of evil. And if you read Luther’s “On the Bondage of the Will” – IMHO a fine work of theology in many ways – you’ll find that his medieval views of God do indeed strike one as cruel, in that Luther firmly believed in hell and that God predestined some to go there. With many modern-day theologians I on the other hand firmly hope that - while our will is bound and while we have no say whatsoever in our salvation – Christ will eventually indeed draw all people to Himself (John 12:32). This ‘drawing’ is in line with my personal experience: I did not find Christ and chose to have faith in Him out of my own free will. Christ found me and made me have faith in Him.

 

[ScottA]

With many modern-day theologians I on the other hand firmly hope that - while our will is bound and while we have no say whatsoever in our salvation – Christ will eventually indeed draw all people to Himself (John 12:32). This ‘drawing’ is in line with my personal experience: I did not find Christ and chose to have faith in Him out of my own free will. Christ found me and made me have faith in Him.

One verse is no reason to say "all" people will be saved, when there are others that say "many" will not be saved. But He does not say "saved" and therefore the verse is not about who will be saved, but about who will be "drawn."

Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

 

[junobet]

One verse is no reason to say "all" people will be saved, when there are others that say "many" will not be saved. But He does not say "saved" and therefore the verse is not about who will be saved, but about who will be "drawn."

Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Imho when you’re drawn by Christ you’re saved. What else? And of course there’s more than one verse that points us to the hope for universal salvation. The question is how to interpret the others. For example I never saw Matthew 22:1-14 as pointing to it that some are chosen for hell (imho a merely pedagogical device here), but to pointing to it that I should put on a suitable wedding garment, i.e. undergo a change of heart. In His sermons and parables Christ shows us what He deems good/what a changed heart will look like. It is also clear that we cannot achieve the perfection that’s demanded of us to be able to stand before God on our own. Hence the cross.



Anyway, gotta go now, so I can’t go into more scriptural detail at the moment, but maybe you’re interested in this article that puts it much more eloquently than I could: ‘The Logic of Hell’ by Jürgen Moltmann

 

[Windmillcharge]

make no mistake, God does nothing in the physical plane without a human's permission!

keeping the law is not the same as being under the law

and the diff should be reflected upon here imo

Really. When did God ask for your permishion to create you, or to save you, or will he ask permision to end your life?

That God is God means he does what he not what we will.

As to the law it declares that you and I are sinners and whether you like it or not you and I are subject to it.

We are not bound by it because of Gods grace, but we cannot ignore it, because if you love Jesus you obey him and the law is part of his commands.
So if you disregard the law you cannot say that you love Jesus.

 

[bbyrd009]

When did God ask for your permishion to create you

my parents gave permission for that i guess

or to save you

i have a hope of salvation, yes, i guess we'll see there

or will he ask permision to end your life?

if i'm already dead right now, that is on me though, see. really it's all a matter of perspective, i'm not disagreeing that at some level God manifested everything, certainly

 

[bbyrd009]

"The Hebrew language works different from ours. That makes it very difficult to translate, and that causes translations to be often poor and lacking. One of the differences is that the Hebrew language is much more dynamic than ours. Hebrew is all about action. Something is reckoned after what it does, not after how it looks. This principle is quite fundamental in Scriptures; it is applied all over. Probably most drastic in the Second Commandment where the Lord prohibits the making of graven images. A graven image after all does not move, and a statue that, for instance, tries to display a calf is not showing typical calf-behavior but static appearance.

The principle even occurs in the New Testament, which is written in Greek but with a Hebrew way of thinking. The second chapter of James, for instance, explains that a believer is not someone who looks like one, or even says she's one, but rather someone who acts like one. To be is to do.

Hold that thought (15)
In Hebrew Scriptures, and all models derived thereof, entities are reckoned solely after their behavior and not after their appearance. An entity is a behavior, not that which executes the behavior.

It is crucial that the reader takes a firm hold of this principle. If a modern Westerner would see a picture of a lion, she would say, "That is a lion."

If an ancient Hebrew would see someone gather and devour food, she would say, "That is a lion." "
To Be Is To Do: A Fundamental Principle of the Hebrew Language

 

[bbyrd009]

"Isaiah's prophesy makes mention of only Kedar and Nebaioth; The Bride likens her color to that of Kedar's camp."
ibid, italics mine

iow "tell me what is loveable about dark-skinned ppl"

 

[Helen]

 

[ScottA]

Imho when you’re drawn by Christ you’re saved. What else? And of course there’s more than one verse that points us to the hope for universal salvation. The question is how to interpret the others. For example I never saw Matthew 22:1-14 as pointing to it that some are chosen for hell (imho a merely pedagogical device here), but to pointing to it that I should put on a suitable wedding garment, i.e. undergo a change of heart. In His sermons and parables Christ shows us what He deems good/what a changed heart will look like. It is also clear that we cannot achieve the perfection that’s demanded of us to be able to stand before God on our own. Hence the cross.



Anyway, gotta go now, so I can’t go into more scriptural detail at the moment, but maybe you’re interested in this article that puts it much more eloquently than I could: ‘The Logic of Hell’ by Jürgen Moltmann

I would like to say that your heart is in the right place to be convinced of universal salvation, for that is God's heart too, but how can I? You have refused the one little verse that should tell you you are wrong, and would have to remove great portions of the word of God to make your case. Then you waffle with you humble opinion, which if you were actually humble, you would drop your opinion altogether and yield to the full counsel of God.

Here it is again:

“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

 

[Windmillcharge]

my parents gave permission for that i guess

i have a hope of salvation, yes, i guess we'll see there

if i'm already dead right now, that is on me though, see. really it's all a matter of perspective, i'm not disagreeing that at some level God manifested everything, certainly

So what you are acknowledgeing is that God has worked in your life without asking you for permission.