Tell me what is loveable about such a God

[bbyrd009]

So what you are acknowledgeing is that God has worked in your life without asking you for permission.

tbh imo that is a justification for blaming God, not giving Him any glory
but at the other end of the bell curve would be atheism, i guess, so i would state it more like God has already done all that He is going to or needs to do, and my actions now will either manifest Christ or not, but they are my responsibility, not God's. I am not waiting for God, in any manifestation, to do anything else iow

 

[7angels]

It may be the Lutheran in me, but I think you’re taking “free will” too far here. You are basically depicting man as the master of his own salvation. IMHO we can’t choose or deny our own salvation. It’s entirely in God’s hands. Should He will us to perish, we’ll perish; should He will to save us, we’ll be saved.

Free will is a merely a human doctrine. I see the usefulness of this concept for daily life and I’m all for granting children as much free will as possible so that they can learn from their own mistakes and develop their own personality. But even the most Hippie-parent will stop their child from running in front of a car, if they can. And God surely can, with Him “all things are possible” (Matthew 19:25-26).

first off it is not because you are lutheran that you do not understand. it is because of religious spirits which i will not explain this time. now the Word tells us that God wishes all to be saved. so if God wishes all to be saved why are people going to hell? doesn't God know that ALL refers to everyone and no a few? maybe it is because God was helping someone else and all those people were sent to hell slipped through the cracks while helping others. if you are following this kind of a God then all i can say is "God help you."
so if God actually wants all to be saved as His Word tells us and yet many are sent to hell then that tells me that yes we are masters of our own salvation. we do get to choose which side of the fence we reside on. i have found that we do have free will but once we choose to live for God then our free will disappears and we become slaves of God(slaves of righteousness). once you choose to live for God then after that you have not free but to do things in accordance to God's will and not your own. if you are not doing God's will then you are not living for God. which is why we have mercy, forgiveness, and grace to keep us on the straight and narrow.
the bible also teaches that if i believe or if i call on the Lord i will be saved. it says "I" which says we choose whether to do it or not.

God does not want robots but people that want to be with Him. that choose Him over everything else. wouldn't you want to have people around you that like you and want to be your friend instead of people that are forced to be nice to you? true friends are rare. so if you could have people around you who would you choose people that pretend to be your friend or those that appreciate you? How do you think God would choose?

God bless

 

[junobet]

first off it is not because you are lutheran that you do not understand. it is because of religious spirits which i will not explain this time. now the Word tells us that God wishes all to be saved. so if God wishes all to be saved why are people going to hell? doesn't God know that ALL refers to everyone and no a few? maybe it is because God was helping someone else and all those people were sent to hell slipped through the cracks while helping others. if you are following this kind of a God then all i can say is "God help you."
so if God actually wants all to be saved as His Word tells us and yet many are sent to hell then that tells me that yes we are masters of our own salvation. we do get to choose which side of the fence we reside on. i have found that we do have free will but once we choose to live for God then our free will disappears and we become slaves of God(slaves of righteousness). once you choose to live for God then after that you have not free but to do things in accordance to God's will and not your own. if you are not doing God's will then you are not living for God. which is why we have mercy, forgiveness, and grace to keep us on the straight and narrow.
the bible also teaches that if i believe or if i call on the Lord i will be saved. it says "I" which says we choose whether to do it or not.

God does not want robots but people that want to be with Him. that choose Him over everything else. wouldn't you want to have people around you that like you and want to be your friend instead of people that are forced to be nice to you? true friends are rare. so if you could have people around you who would you choose people that pretend to be your friend or those that appreciate you? How do you think God would choose?

God bless

So you have free will that makes you the master of your own salvation or damnation, no matter what God wants for you? Really? I think not.

It is God who distributes faith which frees you to do His will (Romans 12:3), and it is “the devil, who has taken (those who don’t) captive to do his will” (2 Timothy 2:26). Christ came to free all from this captivity and I see no reason to doubt that He’ll accomplish His Mission to "save the world" (John 3:17).

There’s many a thing that may be a matter of human willpower: eating just a piece of chocolate or the entire bar, smoking or not smoking, staying put on the sofa or going for a walk… But nobody can will themselves to love God and have faith. In fact “no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:3). Faith is a gift from God, not our own achievement. As for those who lack it still, I have good hope: “For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” (Romans 11:32)

Sola Gratia - all praise to God

 

[junobet]

I would like to say that your heart is in the right place to be convinced of universal salvation, for that is God's heart too, but how can I? You have refused the one little verse that should tell you you are wrong, and would have to remove great portions of the word of God to make your case. Then you waffle with you humble opinion, which if you were actually humble, you would drop your opinion altogether and yield to the full counsel of God.

Here it is again:

“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Well, ScottA, it may well be that humility isn’t my strong point. But if you fail to see the inconsistencies in your Biblical interpretations, I put it to you that it’s not your strong point either.

So you reject the notion that passages in which the Bible has Christ speaking of fire, gnawing of teeth etc. are meant in a pedagogical way, i.e.. to inform us about right and wrong. Instead you take them quite literally. Assuming that you don’t doubt your own salvation it follows that you reckon that you are in fact wearing proper wedding clothes and hence are among the chosen, that you are among the sheep and not the goats, among the wheats and not the tares … If you really are saintly enough to walk the narrow path, I tip my hat to you, but frankly: I doubt you’re any less sinful and imperfect than the rest of us. (Of course all of us should strive to be perfect, but even the Apostle Paul admits he ain't perfect yet.)

So why do I not fear for your soul? Because everything in the Bible culminates in Christ’s atoning work on the cross. It’s with His blood that He washed our garments clean, not just yours and mine or that of an elite club of the elect, but those of the world (Colossians 1:19-20; Romans 5:18; 1 John 2; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 1 Timothy 4:10; 1 Corinthians 15; 2 Corinthians 5:19; Ephesians 1:10; John 17:2; 1 Peter 3:19 … )

Now you may put it to me that it takes faith in Christ to get that blessing. And I’d agree. Thing is that the Bible tells us that eventually everybody will have faith in Christ, not just in John 12:32, but also in Philippians 2:10; Romans 14:11; Exodus 9:16; Isaiah 40:5; Isaiah 45:22-23; Psalm 22:27; Psalm 72:11; Psalm 86:9 …)

So if the Lord doesn’t want “anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9), I trust that He will achieve just that, even though it may take some time.

What strikes me as odd is that you yourself admit that it’s the Christian thing to hope for the salvation of all, yet, you don’t. Could it be you are just entangled in traditional teachings about hell so that you overlook all these verses quoted above? Take heart, brother!

 

[7angels]

So you have free will that makes you the master of your own salvation or damnation, no matter what God wants for you? Really? I think not. It is God who distributes faith which frees you to do His will (Romans 12:3), and it is “the devil, who has taken (those who don’t) captive to do his will” (2 Timothy 2:26). Well, Christ came to free all from this captivity and I see no reason to doubt that He’ll accomplish His Mission to "save the world" (John 3:17).

There’s many a thing that may be a matter of human willpower: eating just a piece of chocolate or the entire bar, smoking or not smoking, staying put on the sofa or going for a walk… But nobody can will themselves to love God and have faith. In fact “no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:3). Faith is a gift from God, not our own achievement. As for those who lack it still, I have good hope: “For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” (Romans 11:32)

faith is a 2 way street. remember not to hit the ditches but stay on the road. believing you are going to get sick every year because it always happens is faith to but not Godly faith. your scriptures don't show any proof of humans having free will or not. your scripture prove other points in your discussion. show me scriptures concerning your points about freewill please. faith is not freewill, the 2 are separate. if your scriptures support free will please explain so i can see it too.

God bless

 

[junobet]

faith is a 2 way street. remember not to hit the ditches but stay on the road. believing you are going to get sick every year because it always happens is faith to but not Godly faith. your scriptures don't show any proof of humans having free will or not. your scripture prove other points in your discussion. show me scriptures concerning your points about freewill please. faith is not freewill, the 2 are separate. if your scriptures support free will please explain so i can see it too.

God bless

That there isn’t any proof for free will in the scriptures was my very point.

What else where you saying other that it’s the choice of their free will that makes people accept or deny Christ?

According to you a decision with fatal consequences – salvation or hell. Hard to make an honest choice there, wouldn’t you say? Does God use bribery and extortion to get truly loved? I think not, for: “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” (1 John 4:18)

 

[7angels]

That there isn’t any proof for free will in the scriptures was my very point.

What else where you saying other that it’s the choice of their free will that makes people accept or deny Christ?

According to you a decision with fatal consequences – salvation or hell. Hard to make an honest choice there, wouldn’t you say? Does God use bribery and extortion to get truly loved? I think not, for: “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” (1 John 4:18)

do you understand that according to scripture all have sinned and fallen short? in other words we are all headed to hell with no excuses. but God in His mercy sacrificed His Son in order to save us. now even though Jesus die for our sins we are not automatically saved. we need to choose to belief in Christ. WE CHOOSE to believe in Christ. according to scripture God wants all people to be saved which is why Jesus died for us all. even though salvation is out there for everyone only those that accept Jesus will be saved. scripture tells us that we can only come to the Father through Christ. so without making Jesus your Lord and Savior there is no way to heaven. the scripture say that we need to CHOOSE life or death. life is Christ and death is not accepting Christ. so by CHOOSING Christ we live in heaven but by not CHOOSING Christ we live in hell. which do you choose?

God bless

 

[ScottA]

Well, ScottA, it may well be that humility isn’t my strong point. But if you fail to see the inconsistencies in your Biblical interpretations, I put it to you that it’s not your strong point either.

So you reject the notion that passages in which the Bible has Christ speaking of fire, gnawing of teeth etc. are meant in a pedagogical way, i.e.. to inform us about right and wrong. Instead you take them quite literally. Assuming that you don’t doubt your own salvation it follows that you reckon that you are in fact wearing proper wedding clothes and hence are among the chosen, that you are among the sheep and not the goats, among the wheats and not the tares … If you really are saintly enough to walk the narrow path, I tip my hat to you, but frankly: I doubt you’re any less sinful and imperfect than the rest of us. (Of course all of us should strive to be perfect, but even the Apostle Paul admits he ain't perfect yet.)

So why do I not fear for your soul? Because everything in the Bible culminates in Christ’s atoning work on the cross. It’s with His blood that He washed our garments clean, not just yours and mine or that of an elite club of the elect, but those of the world (Colossians 1:19-20; Romans 5:18; 1 John 2; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 1 Timothy 4:10; 1 Corinthians 15; 2 Corinthians 5:19; Ephesians 1:10; John 17:2; 1 Peter 3:19 … )

Now you may put it to me that it takes faith in Christ to get that blessing. And I’d agree. Thing is that the Bible tells us that eventually everybody will have faith in Christ, not just in John 12:32, but also in Philippians 2:10; Romans 14:11; Exodus 9:16; Isaiah 40:5; Isaiah 45:22-23; Psalm 22:27; Psalm 72:11; Psalm 86:9 …)

So if the Lord doesn’t want “anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9), I trust that He will achieve just that, even though it may take some time.

What strikes me as odd is that you yourself admit that it’s the Christian thing to hope for the salvation of all, yet, you don’t. Could it be you are just entangled in traditional teachings about hell so that you overlook all these verses quoted above? Take heart, brother!

There seems to be no convincing you that there is both darkness and light, good and evil manifest in the world. That God has no intention of being just with His enemies and those of them who love Him. That love does not triumph over hatred, but merely takes it in. That leaven does not actually spoil the whole lump, and it was all just exaggerated hype, lies told by God as a means to an end.

And you assume to know me and anyone who has taken God at His word, the good as well as the bad. What kind of belief only believes half the Truth from God? (rhetorical) In that case, why not say that Christ never actually died on the cross, because in the end, He lives? (rhetorical again)

Nonetheless, God has been clear and you will not see but be rudely awaken:

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

 

[tabletalk]

Well, ScottA, it may well be that humility isn’t my strong point. But if you fail to see the inconsistencies in your Biblical interpretations, I put it to you that it’s not your strong point either.

So you reject the notion that passages in which the Bible has Christ speaking of fire, gnawing of teeth etc. are meant in a pedagogical way, i.e.. to inform us about right and wrong. Instead you take them quite literally. Assuming that you don’t doubt your own salvation it follows that you reckon that you are in fact wearing proper wedding clothes and hence are among the chosen, that you are among the sheep and not the goats, among the wheats and not the tares … If you really are saintly enough to walk the narrow path, I tip my hat to you, but frankly: I doubt you’re any less sinful and imperfect than the rest of us. (Of course all of us should strive to be perfect, but even the Apostle Paul admits he ain't perfect yet.)

So why do I not fear for your soul? Because everything in the Bible culminates in Christ’s atoning work on the cross. It’s with His blood that He washed our garments clean, not just yours and mine or that of an elite club of the elect, but those of the world (Colossians 1:19-20; Romans 5:18; 1 John 2; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 1 Timothy 4:10; 1 Corinthians 15; 2 Corinthians 5:19; Ephesians 1:10; John 17:2; 1 Peter 3:19 … )

Now you may put it to me that it takes faith in Christ to get that blessing. And I’d agree. Thing is that the Bible tells us that eventually everybody will have faith in Christ, not just in John 12:32, but also in Philippians 2:10; Romans 14:11; Exodus 9:16; Isaiah 40:5; Isaiah 45:22-23; Psalm 22:27; Psalm 72:11; Psalm 86:9 …)

So if the Lord doesn’t want “anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9), I trust that He will achieve just that, even though it may take some time.

What strikes me as odd is that you yourself admit that it’s the Christian thing to hope for the salvation of all, yet, you don’t. Could it be you are just entangled in traditional teachings about hell so that you overlook all these verses quoted above? Take heart, brother!

You said: ' If you really are saintly enough to walk the narrow path, I tip my hat to you, but frankly: I doubt you’re any less sinful and imperfect than the rest of us.'
That is not the Good News you are describing.
We are saints because we have been saved by grace, not because we 'are saintly enough to walk the narrow path'.
Believers may not be 'any less sinful and imperfect than the rest of us' , as sanctification is a lifelong process, initiated by God for the saints to glorify Him.

 

[bbyrd009]

we are not (supposed to be) dogs, who run on instinct, and do not know the diff in right and wrong; "free will" is the expression used to convey this principle, doesn't matter whether you agree with it or not lol. You either know the diff in right and wrong--the law--or you do not. If you do, you have "free will."

 

[junobet]

There seems to be no convincing you that there is both darkness and light, good and evil manifest in the world.

What makes you think that? Quite the contrary. It is very manifest to me that human beings are by nature bound towards evil, not just because the Bible tells me so, but also because I watch the news and know myself in my darkest hours. And clearly I don’t doubt that there’s a light that shineth in that darkness: “The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.” (John 1:9)

That God has no intention of being just with His enemies and those of them who love Him. That love does not triumph over hatred, but merely takes it in. That leaven does not actually spoil the whole lump, and it was all just exaggerated hype, lies told by God as a means to an end.

And you assume to know me and anyone who has taken God at His word, the good as well as the bad. What kind of belief only believes half the Truth from God? (rhetorical) In that case, why not say that Christ never actually died on the cross, because in the end, He lives? (rhetorical again)

I don’t assume to know you. But in increasingly get the impression that you yourself don’t have taken God at His word and that you have a tendency towards answering argument with willful misunderstanding and baseless insult. Which makes it kind of hard to have a constructive discussion with you.

Now, it seems I’m not the only Christian who thinks Scripture works with rhetorics here and there that have to be read in context. Otherwise there’d be a plentitude of Christians with just one eye. (Sticking to an isolated literal understanding of Matthew 5:27-30 when you are a teenager? Tough!) Question is when does scripture mean what and how? I actually tried to explain my reasoning concerning that question by pointing you to the cross – which is of course a very real event and which I deem the central event for salvation. In passages such as Matthew 5:27-30 the Bible informs us that all of us deserve hell, but thanks to Christ’s atoning work on the cross we can now exclaim ““Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” (1 Corinthians 15:54b+55)


But pray do tell me, how do you yourself take God by his word, when you just completely ignore every of the many verses that I referenced as giving us hope for the salvation of all? Let me spell some out for you, just in case you did not even bother to look them up:

“For it was the good pleasure [of the Father] that in him should all the fulness dwell; and through him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, [I say], whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens." (1. Colossians 1:19-20)

"So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life." (Romans 5:18)

"My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." (1 John2:2)

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15: 12)

"to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation” (2 Corinthians 5:19)

Nonetheless, God has been clear and you will not see but be rudely awaken:

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Oh dear, have you just said I’ll be damned to hell? Making yourself the judge of that, when only God can search our hearts? Guess Matthew 7:1-2 is another passage you don’t take for its word.

But let me confess that in the course of our discussion I found myself inwardly smiling at the idea of you seeing some people seated at the top of heavenly banquet-table whose salvation may take you by surprise. But surely it isn’t my business to surmise who’s saved and who isn’t, either. So I shouldn’t be throwing the first stone here.

Maybe we can just both go on reset and agree that it is God, who is the sole sovereign of who’s saved and who isn’t.

 

[junobet]

You said: ' If you really are saintly enough to walk the narrow path, I tip my hat to you, but frankly: I doubt you’re any less sinful and imperfect than the rest of us.'
That is not the Good News you are describing.
We are saints because we have been saved by grace, not because we 'are saintly enough to walk the narrow path'.
Believers may not be 'any less sinful and imperfect than the rest of us' , as sanctification is a lifelong process, initiated by God for the saints to glorify Him.

Maybe I should work on my writing style. Am I really making myself that unclear?

The question what exactly you mean by us being “saints” aside – I fully agree with what you say here. That’s just the point I was trying to make when I said that even the Apostle Paul admitted to his own imperfections .

Also I saw a post of yours in the “Free-will” thread in which you make an excellent argument for God choosing us rather than us choosing Him.

As you said here we are indeed “saved by grace”, not by our own merit. Even our faith, through which we receive this grace, isn’t our own merit, but a gift from God. And any good work that we do because of this faith working in us is Christ’s merit, not ours. When we claim we can choose to have faith by our own free like @7angels does, we take glory away from God and praise ourselves instead. We are not “masters of our own salvation”, as @7angels boasted. Nothing concerning our salvation is our own doing. (Ephesians 2:1-10)

 

[tabletalk]

Maybe I should work on my writing style. Am I really making myself that unclear?

The question what exactly you mean by us being “saints” aside – I fully agree with what you say here. That’s just the point I was trying to make when I said that even the Apostle Paul admitted to his own imperfections .

Also I saw a post of yours in the “Free-will” thread in which you make an excellent argument for God choosing us rather than us choosing Him.

As you said here we are indeed “saved by grace”, not by our own merit. Even our faith, through which we receive this grace, isn’t our own merit, but a gift from God. And any good work that we do because of this faith working in us is Christ’s merit, not ours. When we claim we can choose to have faith by our own free like @7angels does, we take glory away from God and praise ourselves instead. We are not “masters of our own salvation”, as @7angels boasted. Nothing concerning our salvation is our own doing. (Ephesians 2:1-10)

Thanks for the clarification!
Peace.

 

[bbyrd009]

Maybe I should work on my writing style. Am I really making myself that unclear?

The question what exactly you mean by us being “saints” aside – I fully agree with what you say here. That’s just the point I was trying to make when I said that even the Apostle Paul admitted to his own imperfections .

Also I saw a post of yours in the “Free-will” thread in which you make an excellent argument for God choosing us rather than us choosing Him.

As you said here we are indeed “saved by grace”, not by our own merit. Even our faith, through which we receive this grace, isn’t our own merit, but a gift from God. And any good work that we do because of this faith working in us is Christ’s merit, not ours. When we claim we can choose to have faith by our own free like @7angels does, we take glory away from God and praise ourselves instead. We are not “masters of our own salvation”, as @7angels boasted. Nothing concerning our salvation is our own doing. (Ephesians 2:1-10)

i would at least find some room for "seek your own salvation" in this tho. Asking, seeking, knocking, these are all voluntary pursuits, and your framework there will usually culminate in Nehushtan worship, seems to me. You have a responsibility, you must change your own mind, you must pick up your own cross, etc

 

[ScottA]

“The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.” (John 1:9)

Not "everyone" receives Him:
Mark 6:11
And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”

I don’t assume to know you. But in increasingly get the impression that you yourself don’t have taken God at His word and that you have a tendency towards answering argument with willful misunderstanding and baseless insult. Which makes it kind of hard to have a constructive discussion with you.

So says you who only loves half of what he reads. If you want contructivism - show up with all the materials.

Now, it seems I’m not the only Christian who thinks Scripture works with rhetorics here and there that have to be read in context. Otherwise there’d be a plentitude of Christians with just one eye. (Sticking to an isolated literal understanding of Matthew 5:27-30 when you are a teenager? Tough!) Question is when does scripture mean what and how? I actually tried to explain my reasoning concerning that question by pointing you to the cross – which is of course a very real event and which I deem the central event for salvation. In passages such as Matthew 5:27-30 the Bible informs us that all of us deserve hell, but thanks to Christ’s atoning work on the cross we can now exclaim ““Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” (1 Corinthians 15:54b+55)

You are just opening one eye and closing the other. Here you have only quoted what is written of those who receive Him, and not what is written of those who don't.

But pray do tell me, how do you yourself take God by his word, when you just completely ignore every of the many verses that I referenced as giving us hope for the salvation of all? Let me spell some out for you, just in case you did not even bother to look them up:

“For it was the good pleasure [of the Father] that in him should all the fulness dwell; and through him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, [I say], whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens." (1. Colossians 1:19-20)

"So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life." (Romans 5:18)

"My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." (1 John2:2)

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15: 12)

"to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation” (2 Corinthians 5:19)

This is only the part that would support your own misguided will. You are like a bird with one wing. You have left out hell and damnation, which is there also.

But, the answer is, that God has indeed made available salvation for the whole world, for all - but all do not receive it. Therefore, He says "all", bringing their own damnation upon themselves, for He is just.

Oh dear, have you just said I’ll be damned to hell? Making yourself the judge of that, when only God can search our hearts? Guess Matthew 7:1-2 is another passage you don’t take for its word.

But let me confess that in the course of our discussion I found myself inwardly smiling at the idea of you seeing some people seated at the top of heavenly banquet-table whose salvation may take you by surprise. But surely it isn’t my business to surmise who’s saved and who isn’t, either. So I shouldn’t be throwing the first stone here.

Maybe we can just both go on reset and agree that it is God, who is the sole sovereign of who’s saved and who isn’t.

I do not condemn nor judge, but reiterate the warning that is written in what you will not hear. For which I have merely stated the obvious, what you will not see will be a surprise to you. Meanwhile, you preach a half truth which is not the gospel of Christ.

 

[junobet]

Not "everyone" receives Him:
Mark 6:11
And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”
So says you who only loves half of what he reads. If you want contructivism - show up with all the materials.

Again you point to a supposed splinter in my eye whilst overlooking the plank in your own, brother. It would have been nice to hear your explanation as to why and how you think John 1:9 and your interpretation of Mark 6:11 as pointing to a Dante-style hell are both true. How can Christ give light to everyone when some ultimately won’t receive Him?

As for my reasoning why both verses are true:

Mark does not speak of the kind of hell you have in mind. The destruction of Sodom and Gomherra was an earthly one, so was the destruction of Judea during the Jewish-Roman wars. It probably was hell on earth to live in Judea in those times. But those who died back then still have as much hope to receive Christ’s salvation as those “who were disobedient (…) in the days of Noah” (1 Peter 3:20). Most Jewish towns did not receive Christ’s disciples and the Gospel they brought, and Mark tells us Christ predicted that He would be rejected. It’s part of the salvific plan (Mark 8:31). According to Paul this rejection was necessary for the sake of our (the gentiles') salvation. Yet Paul doesn’t see this rejection as ultimate. He is confident that “all Israel will be saved”. Even those that “were hardened”, did not “stumble so as to fall beyond recovery” (comp.: Romans 11:25-32).

You are just opening one eye and closing the other. Here you have only quoted what is written of those who receive Him, and not what is written of those who don't.

You see, ScottA, I just don’t think it’s possible to ultimately reject Christ. 1 Corinthians 15 makes it pretty clear all will receive Him. Christ doesn’t destroy people, but dominion, authority, power and finally death itself. And Paul tells us that in the end, when Christ has put everything under His feet, God will be “all in all”.

Not everybody realizes yet that they belong to Christ, but personally I trust that eventually “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.”
(Philippians 2:10+11, comp.: Romans 14:11)

​

This is only the part that would support your own misguided will. You are like a bird with one wing. You have left out hell and damnation, which is there also.

But, the answer is, that God has indeed made available salvation for the whole world, for all - but all do not receive it. Therefore, He says "all", bringing their own damnation upon themselves, for He is just.
I do not condemn nor judge, but reiterate the warning that is written in what you will not hear. For which I have merely stated the obvious, what you will not see will be a surprise to you. Meanwhile, you preach a half truth which is not the gospel of Christ.

You want to call your idea of eternal condemnation for the vast majority of mankind the gospel, i.e. “good news”? Really? When God, who is almighty, did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him, you think most men can thwart His will and Christ will only manage to save a fraction of the world? Sorry, but it seems to me that such faith is small. Don’t you think that Christians should at least hope that everybody will “get saved and come to the knowledge of the truth“, when the Bible tells us that this is God’s desire (1 Tim.2:4)?

 

[junobet]

i would at least find some room for "seek your own salvation" in this tho. Asking, seeking, knocking, these are all voluntary pursuits, and your framework there will usually culminate in Nehushtan worship, seems to me. You have a responsibility, you must change your own mind, you must pick up your own cross, etc

I’d say even the ability to ask, seek and knock is a gift from God. It is God who hardens hearts or sets them free to do His will. Only He can change our minds, which are otherwise bound by sin.

P.S.:
I can understand your humanist doubts about this, though. This is a mindset that - if applied wrong - may well lead to laziness that renders the will of God/one's own rotten nature as a lame excuse. But if true, God-given faith will produce zeal to do the right thing and hopefully give a well informed conscience to discern what the right thing is. Only that you give the glory for doing the right thing not to yourself but to God. To assume anything else would easily lead to “boasting”. Instead Peter was told that the last will be first.

 

[ScottA]

Again you point to a supposed splinter in my eye whilst overlooking the plank in your own, brother. It would have been nice to hear your explanation as to why and how you think John 1:9 and your interpretation of Mark 6:11 as pointing to a Dante-style hell are both true. How can Christ give light to everyone when some ultimately won’t receive Him?

As for my reasoning why both verses are true:

Mark does not speak of the kind of hell you have in mind. The destruction of Sodom and Gomherra was an earthly one, so was the destruction of Judea during the Jewish-Roman wars. It probably was hell on earth to live in Judea in those times. But those who died back then still have as much hope to receive Christ’s salvation as those “who were disobedient (…) in the days of Noah” (1 Peter 3:20). Most Jewish towns did not receive Christ’s disciples and the Gospel they brought, and Mark tells us Christ predicted that He would be rejected. It’s part of the salvific plan (Mark 8:31). According to Paul this rejection was necessary for the sake of our (the gentiles') salvation. Yet Paul doesn’t see this rejection as ultimate. He is confident that “all Israel will be saved”. Even those that “were hardened”, did not “stumble so as to fall beyond recovery” (comp.: Romans 11:25-32).


You see, ScottA, I just don’t think it’s possible to ultimately reject Christ. 1 Corinthians 15 makes it pretty clear all will receive Him. Christ doesn’t destroy people, but dominion, authority, power and finally death itself. And Paul tells us that in the end, when Christ has put everything under His feet, God will be “all in all”.

Not everybody realizes yet that they belong to Christ, but personally I trust that eventually “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.”
(Philippians 2:10+11, comp.: Romans 14:11)

​

You want to call your idea of eternal condemnation for the vast majority of mankind the gospel, i.e. “good news”? Really? When God, who is almighty, did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him, you think most men can thwart His will and Christ will only manage to save a fraction of the world? Sorry, but it seems to me that such faith is small. Don’t you think that Christians should at least hope that everybody will “get saved and come to the knowledge of the truth“, when the Bible tells us that this is God’s desire (1 Tim.2:4)?

You seeing just what you want to see and believing just what you want to believe, does not make it so. But face it or not, you and all who have taken away from the word of God, do so in vain. Fragments of scriptures are only good in hindsight, but He has always revealed the truth beforehand. I don't need to argue with you. I have already told you the truth from God, and I was willing to tell all. But...you, you have not accounted for the son of perdition...and his children. Nor have you believed all that has been revealed to you.

 

[mjrhealth]

when the Bible tells us that this is God’s desir

God would not have wanted that Adam should fall but He did, it matters not that God "desires" that all would come to Christ if the many reject Him as they do, christians and non christians alike. God will not oppose any mans will, simple as that. I would hope that He has some unknown plan that would get most saved, but that has never being shown to me so I dont know, neither can I discuss hell as I have no first hand knowledge only that what men fight and bicker over. Who knows one day. I do know there is a devil, that without a shadow of a doubt. So i wait to see wait teh Lord would have me know.

 

[junobet]

You seeing just what you want to see and believing just what you want to believe, does not make it so. But face it or not, you and all who have taken away from the word of God, do so in vain. Fragments of scriptures are only good in hindsight, but He has always revealed the truth beforehand. I don't need to argue with you. I have already told you the truth from God, and I was willing to tell all. But...you, you have not accounted for the son of perdition...and his children. Nor have you believed all that has been revealed to you.

Yes, it’s become obvious that you don’t see the need to argue with me, because so far you’ve evaded all my questions concerning the verses that you ignore. And again you do the very thing you accuse me of. Fragments of scriptures, eh?

So, this time you throw the fragment of the “son of perdition” at me rather than actually ansering my post. Which one do you mean? Judas Ischariot, the most tragic figure in the New Testament? Or that ominous eschatological figure mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2? Never mind, it’s a long time since I read the New Testament in Greek, but I can still run a wordsearch and lo and behold: the very word that describes their being lost is used in the Parable of the Lost Coin and the Parable of the Lost Son. Both, the coin and the son, were eventually found. Judas probably indeed wished he had never been born, when he was “seized with remorse” and hanged himself (Matthew 27:3-5). And yet all of us would still be lost had he not done the part that God assigned for him in the passion of Christ. So why do you not allow yourself to assume that Judas was included when Christ prayed for the forgiveness of those who crucified Him? Just because you can’t forgive him, you can't believe the Lamb of God may have carried his sin as well as yours? How are we any better? The Bible tells us that all of us once were children of the devil or children of wrath and that it’s not our own doing that we’re not anymore (Ephesians 2:1-9).


You boldly claim to speak God’s truth when all you do is reading the Bible through the lense of your own tradition. Granted: all of us are prone to that, Catholics and Protestants alike, and granted: tradition isn’t necessarily wrong. But we do good to doublecheck. And when trying to make sense of Scripture we do good to be humble and pray that “the peace of God, which transcends all understanding”, will guard our hearts and our minds in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4:7) And I’m sorry to say that you don’t come across as that guarded to me. See, when we hear Jesus talking about Gehenna this should make us work out our own salvation in fear and trembling, to realize the gravity of our own sin and help us by the grace of Christ to do better in future. When it leads us to pray like the Pharisee rather than the tax-collector in Luke 18,9–14, we’ve totally missed Christ’s Point and nothing has been revealed to us.