The 10 Commandments are FOREVER

[dad]

IGNORE.

Yes you have done that. Better to be honest.

 

[dad]

I’m not a Jew. I do not forgive SINS of another Jew under the Law.

What are you talking about? Jesus said forgive others for their sins against us. That means that believers sin, in case you missed that. Why else would we need to forgive them so often?

 

[Taken]

What are you talking about? Jesus said forgive others for their sins against us. That means that believers sin, in case you missed that. Why else would we need to forgive them so often?

Sin is against God, only God forgives Sin.
The Lord God has authority to forgive Sin.

Hebrews / Jews under the Law, forgave eachother of “SINS”, according to the law....doesn’t apply to me.

I don’t forgive men of sin. I forgive men of trespasses.
Men can not forgive me of sin. Men can only forgive me of trespasses.

 

[dad]

Sin is against God, only God forgives Sin.
The Lord God has authority to forgive Sin.

Hebrews / Jews under the Law, forgave eachother of “SINS”, according to the law....doesn’t apply to me.

I don’t forgive men of sin. I forgive men of trespasses.
Men can not forgive me of sin. Men can only forgive me of trespasses.

So the ten commandments do apply to you but the Lord's prayer does not, to be clear?

 

[BarneyFife]

Sin is against God, only God forgives Sin.
The Lord God has authority to forgive Sin.

Hebrews / Jews under the Law, forgave eachother of “SINS”, according to the law....doesn’t apply to me.

I don’t forgive men of sin. I forgive men of trespasses.
Men can not forgive me of sin. Men can only forgive me of trespasses.

Please don't feed the trolls.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus obeyed all the 10 Commandments, including the 4th - the Sabbath Commandment.
John 15:10
Luke 4:16

Paul obeyed all the 10 Commandments and preached in the synagogues on the Sabbath day throughout his ministry.
Acts 21:24
Acts 13:42

Many other writers endorsed the 10 Commandments and the Sabbath.

It's certainly not bad to observe all 10 Commandments just as Jesus and the disciples did.

Hi,
been busy a few days and can't remember if I replied to this.
(this might be a repeat)

Jesus obeyed all 10 commandments.
I agree.
But He also did things on the Sabbath that were forbidden, and, as He explained it...
The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
IOW, as I understand it, the Sabbath is a day of rest. It was for man to rest one day of the week, when previously they had never rested.
If man is made for the Sabbath, instead, it means that man honors a day more than he honors God.
God is to be honored, not a day.

We should understand what The Lord's Day means.
In the times of the early church. the Lord's Day meant Sunday...the first day of the week.
The resurrection was to be remembered and God began His work on the first day of the week.

Revelation 1:10 states that John was in the spirit on the Lord's Day.
This would have been Sunday by the time he wrote Revelation.
Acts 20:7 says that the disciples gathered to break bread...this could mean a common meal, but I doubt they would
discuss a common meal in the Acts, most probably it meant breaking bread as Jesus had broken bread at the Last Supper.
I don't know how we could be absolutely certain about this...

I might have already stated that in this matter, I tend to search what the early Christians did and to adhere to that.
It's been argued by me on this thread that the Sabbath worship is a ceremonial law and the other 9 commandments are moral laws.
Moral laws cannot be changed.
And it's not been shown how going to church/synagogue on a particular day is NOT a ceremonial law.
How could this possibly be a Moral Law?

Here is what some early Christians believed about the Lord's Day...
Acts 20:7
1 Corinthians 16:2
Revelation 1:10

Every Lord's Day, gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, so that your sacrifice may be pure.
Didache approx 90AD
(instructions from the Apostles)

No longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day...
Ignatius 105AD
(ignatius learned from Peter and John)

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in the cities or in the country gather together to one place...
Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God made the world...
and Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
Justin Martyr 160AD
Student of St. Irenaeus


and more...

 

[GodsGrace]

All this ceremonial, moral, this and that nonsense is just that. It's a smoke screen for the real issue at hand and that is the obeying of the 10 Commandments.

Paul, in no uncertain terms, kept the entire Law. All 10 Commandments on a regular basis. Period.
Acts 21:24
Actually, that's the only verse anybody EVER uses to claim that the Bible supports Sunday observance. It doesn't support it in the least.
Breaking bread = common meal.
They did it daily, and from house to house. It wasn't significant to the 1st day of the week at all.
Acts 2:46

There is no mention whatsoever of Jesus' resurrection and the only time period that anything takes place on the 1st day of the week is minimal, at best. Seeing as how days are from sundown to sundown and they met, at some point that day and then preached til after midnight, it puts the majority of the event upon the 2nd day of the week. With no mention of any significance of the 1st day, and very little if any of that day passing during the event, it is a neutral verse that supports the doctrine of Sunday observance not in the least.

No. Constantine changed it in the early 4th century. Certainly not any apostles. Also the Catholic Church admits to having part in changing it.

I have to disagree wholeheartedly that Constantine changed the day or worship to Sunday.
That is just not historical and requires no debating.
Please see my previous post.
Constantine was ruling in the 4th century.

I will say that it does bother me that the Sabbath worship is one of the 10 Commandments.
Also, the Sabbath is a sign of the Mosaic Covenant.
The problem with this, however, is that every covenant either improved upon, or added to, the previous covenant.

The sign of the Abrahamic Covenant was circumcision.
Are Christian males obligated to be circumcised?
No.
Because we are no longer under any of the O.T. Covenants, but under the New Covenant.

So,

1. Worship is ceremonial and not moral.
2. The early church worshipped on Sunday.
3. We are under the New Covenant.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would say that I know a lot more about the laws in the Torah than you do.

1, How can the first four laws of the Ten Commandments be "moral"? They have nothing to do with morality. They are purely spiritual and relate to a person's relationship to God. Even the laws pertaining to tithes were in fact offerings to God.

2. The Sabbath law (the 4th Law) is a spiritual law, and is now transferred to the Christian Sabbath (which the Sabbatarians reject but the apostles upheld). Jesus said that God is a Spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in Spirit and in truth. The Lord's Day is for Christian worship, rest, and good works.

3. How can criminal laws be "civil", when they are always treated differently (to this day) and the penalties are also different? Criminal laws resulted in the death penalty, while civil laws frequently required just compensation and restitution.

4. How can dietary laws be "ceremonial" since they pertain strictly to the intake of food -- which is a necessity?

5. How can sacrifices be "ceremonial" since they pertain to the atonement for sins? In the OT "atonement" meant "covering" and the blood of clean animals did cover sins (in anticipation of the final sacrifice of Christ).

6. How can the laws pertaining to the Levitical priesthood and the Levites be "ceremonial" when they included the worthiness of the priests and Levites for service?

7. Then we have laws pertaining to the responsibilities of kings, and laws regulating warfare. There is nothing "civil" or "ceremonial" here.

It was the laws pertaining to feasts, festivals, holy days, new moons etc. which were regarded as ceremonial.

I don't doubt that you may know more than I do.

But I don't know what you mean by Spiritual Law.

As far as I know there are 3 Laws presented in the O.T.
CEREMONIAL
CIVIL
MORAL

The first commandments may be about God and how we are to behave toward Him...
that is Moral.
Worshipping, it seems to me, is Ceremonial.

No one has yet explained how it could possibly be moral.

Numbers 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 STILL show me that there is some misunderstanding regarding the Laws of the O.T.
If we can't agree on that...
HOW do you suppose to explain how worshipping is a MORAL LAW?
(It's a ceremonial law).

 

[Brakelite]

Worship is ceremonial and not moral.

KJV Revelation 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

You really think the above is about a ceremony? Or submission to the Creators authority and obedience to God's Commandments?

The early church worshipped on Sunday.

How early are you thinking? 1st century? No.
2nd century, a few maybe but only to look different from the Jews who were identified by the Romans through their Sabbath keeping and persecuted.
3rd century. Most who observed Sunday observed the Sabbath as well.
4th century. Constantine did make a law regarding Sunday sacredness. But to the sun god.
5th century. The Catholic Church mandated Sunday sacredness but for the purpose of attracting pagan sun worshippers into their ranks.
6th century. There were still Sabbath observers everywhere else outside of Roman jurisdiction and reach.

We are under the New Covenant.

None of the covenants changed in one iota man's obligation to obey his Creator.
The real trick is in the individuals response to, and love for, truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't need to rationalize keeping the 10 Commandments. It's the default position. Do you feel that you need to rationalize not keeping them? The new antinomian position is almost entirely a construct of late-20th century America. I witnessed the whole thing. I heard people say that the ten commandments were nailed to the cross. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. My father said he never in his life heard such a thing. He raised me Southern Baptist.

I respect your position and we probably agree on everything else. (of course it depends on what TYPE of baptist you are!)
I'd just have to disagree regarding this antinomian thing.
Worshipping on Sunday is a construct of the 20th century?
Please see my post above, no. 886.
The Christians were worshipping on Sunday during the century when Jesus died and ascended and before John wrote the book of Revelation.
In post. 887 I explain why we could worship on Sunday and not be sinning.
One could disagree of course.
We should do what our conscience tells us.

The Mitzvot is not an inspired numbering of God's commandments. Christians have no interest in it except as a tool to justify lawlessness. Love God and your neighbor is not law. Love is a principle. Law is based on principles. That's why my Jesus said the law and the prophets hang on love for God and neighbor. God's law is simple. He separated it from ceremony by etching it in stone. Even a child can understand that. Except we become as little children we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3)

I agree...but you believe, then, that worshipping is under the heading of a Moral Law.
How is keeping the Sabbath moral and not ceremonial?
Isn't going to church/synagogue ceremonial?
Isn't it called a Wedding Ceremony?
A Communion Ceremony?

 

[GodsGrace]

KJV Revelation 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

You really think the above is about a ceremony? Or submission to the Creators authority and obedience to God's Commandments?

How early are you thinking? 1st century? No.
2nd century, a few maybe but only to look different from the Jews who were identified by the Romans through their Sabbath keeping and persecuted.
3rd century. Most who observed Sunday observed the Sabbath as well.
4th century. Constantine did make a law regarding Sunday sacredness. But to the sun god.
5th century. The Catholic Church mandated Sunday sacredness but for the purpose of attracting pagan sun worshippers into their ranks.
6th century. There were still Sabbath observers everywhere else outside of Roman jurisdiction and reach.

None of the covenants changed in one iota man's obligation to obey his Creator.
The real trick is in the individuals response to, and love for, truth.

So are you a guy?
So are you circumcisesd?
(no reply really necessary)

I'm not one to argue page after page.
I've made my case...
I respect your position.

HOWEVER, it still has not been explained how worshipping is a Moral Law.

Just saying so, does not make it come true.

And, yes, Sunday was being observed in the 1st century.
If you don't believe the ECFs, then you shouldn't believe your bible either....
They're the ones that assembled it.

 

[Oceanprayers]

Hi,
been busy a few days and can't remember if I replied to this.
(this might be a repeat)

Jesus obeyed all 10 commandments.
I agree.
But He also did things on the Sabbath that were forbidden, and, as He explained it...
The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
IOW, as I understand it, the Sabbath is a day of rest. It was for man to rest one day of the week, when previously they had never rested.
If man is made for the Sabbath, instead, it means that man honors a day more than he honors God.
God is to be honored, not a day.

We should understand what The Lord's Day means.
In the times of the early church. the Lord's Day meant Sunday...the first day of the week.
The resurrection was to be remembered and God began His work on the first day of the week.

Revelation 1:10 states that John was in the spirit on the Lord's Day.
This would have been Sunday by the time he wrote Revelation.
Acts 20:7 says that the disciples gathered to break bread...this could mean a common meal, but I doubt they would
discuss a common meal in the Acts, most probably it meant breaking bread as Jesus had broken bread at the Last Supper.
I don't know how we could be absolutely certain about this...

I might have already stated that in this matter, I tend to search what the early Christians did and to adhere to that.
It's been argued by me on this thread that the Sabbath worship is a ceremonial law and the other 9 commandments are moral laws.
Moral laws cannot be changed.
And it's not been shown how going to church/synagogue on a particular day is NOT a ceremonial law.
How could this possibly be a Moral Law?

Here is what some early Christians believed about the Lord's Day...
Acts 20:7
1 Corinthians 16:2
Revelation 1:10

Every Lord's Day, gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, so that your sacrifice may be pure.
Didache approx 90AD
(instructions from the Apostles)

No longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day...
Ignatius 105AD
(ignatius learned from Peter and John)

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in the cities or in the country gather together to one place...
Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God made the world...
and Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
Justin Martyr 160AD
Student of St. Irenaeus


and more...

I think that's the problem. You referred to the early church and their making the Lord's day a Sunday.

But the Lord didn't decree the Sabbath to be on Sunday. The Lord's day is the Sabbath day.

Man's day is Sunday. Not the Lord's.
A letter to the Magnesians written by Ignatius of Antioch in A.D. 110:"If those who have been brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e., converted Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath but living in observance of the Lord's day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and his death..."
Magnesians written by Ignatius of Antioch in A.D. 110:"If those who have been brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e., converted Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath but living in observance of the Lord's day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and his death..." at DuckDuckGo

 

[Brakelite]

Was He not speaking of how HE kept the commandments ?
1) LOVE GOD
2LOVE NEIGHBOUR . = Done!

Yes exactly. And if in your perusal of scripture, you happen to be reading Exodus 20 and discover a detail therein that reflects your deficiency in your loving of God and neighbor, what do you do to rectify that which God through His word has pointed out?

 

[Brakelite]

The Sabbath law (the 4th Law) is a spiritual law, and is now transferred to the Christian Sabbath (which the Sabbatarians reject but the apostles upheld).

Seldom does one read such blatant desperation in order to defend the indefensible.

It's retaining the legalistic nature of Moses' sabbath observance that is resisted

Legalistic? Is abstaining from adultery legalistic?
Noah was commanded to build a boat in order to be saved. He built that boat, and was saved. He was saved by grace, but according to your theological reasoning, he should have been condemned because he obeyed God's Commandment and was a legalist... Working for his salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think that's the problem. You referred to the early church and their making the Lord's day a Sunday.

But the Lord didn't decree the Sabbath to be on Sunday. The Lord's day is the Sabbath day.

Man's day is Sunday. Not the Lord's.
A letter to the Magnesians written by Ignatius of Antioch in A.D. 110:"If those who have been brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e., converted Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath but living in observance of the Lord's day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and his death..."
Magnesians written by Ignatius of Antioch in A.D. 110:"If those who have been brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e., converted Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath but living in observance of the Lord's day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and his death..." at DuckDuckGo

I'm a little confused by your post.

Could you post the actual wording?? (of your link)

THIS is what I get from the letter of Ignatius to the Magnesians:

8 Do not be led astray by wrong views or by outmoded tales that count for nothing. For if we still go on observing Judaism, we admit we never received grace. The divine prophets themselves lived Christ Jesus’ way. That is why they were persecuted, for they were inspired by his grace to convince unbelievers that God is one, and that he has revealed himself in his Son Jesus Christ, who is his Word issuing from the silence and who won the complete approval of him who sent him.

9 Those, then, who lived by ancient practices arrived at a new hope. They ceased to keep the Sabbath and lived by the Lord’s Day, on which our life as well as theirs shone forth, thanks to Him and his death, though some deny this. Through this mystery we got our faith, and because of it we stand our ground so as to become disciples of Jesus Christ, our sole teacher. How, then, can we live without him when even the prophets, who were his disciples by the Spirit, awaited him as their teacher? He, then, whom they were rightly expecting, raised them from the dead, when he came.

 

[Brakelite]

And, yes, Sunday was being observed in the 1st century.
If you don't believe the ECFs, then you shouldn't believe your bible either....
They're the ones that assembled it.

On whose and on what authority did they base this change? Even if you have evidence that the apostles themselves changed the day, on what authority did would they offer in support?

 

[Oceanprayers]

I'm a little confused by your post.

Could you post the actual wording?? (of your link)

THIS is what I get from the letter of Ignatius to the Magnesians:

8 Do not be led astray by wrong views or by outmoded tales that count for nothing. For if we still go on observing Judaism, we admit we never received grace. The divine prophets themselves lived Christ Jesus’ way. That is why they were persecuted, for they were inspired by his grace to convince unbelievers that God is one, and that he has revealed himself in his Son Jesus Christ, who is his Word issuing from the silence and who won the complete approval of him who sent him.

9 Those, then, who lived by ancient practices arrived at a new hope. They ceased to keep the Sabbath and lived by the Lord’s Day, on which our life as well as theirs shone forth, thanks to Him and his death, though some deny this. Through this mystery we got our faith, and because of it we stand our ground so as to become disciples of Jesus Christ, our sole teacher. How, then, can we live without him when even the prophets, who were his disciples by the Spirit, awaited him as their teacher? He, then, whom they were rightly expecting, raised them from the dead, when he came.

I know of that PDF you borrowed from.
https://www.orderofstignatius.org/files/Letters/Ignatius_to_Magnesians.pdf

 

[Enoch111]

No one has yet explained how it could possibly be moral.

Morality has to do with our behavior as dictated by our conscience (which is given to all mankind). It applies to human relationships. Spirituality has to do with our relationship to God with our spirits and through the Holy Spirit. So the first four laws are in fact spiritual, but Paul calls all the Ten Commandments spiritual (Rom 7:14).

 

[Brakelite]

I'm a little confused by your post.

Could you post the actual wording?? (of your link)

THIS is what I get from the letter of Ignatius to the Magnesians:

8 Do not be led astray by wrong views or by outmoded tales that count for nothing. For if we still go on observing Judaism, we admit we never received grace. The divine prophets themselves lived Christ Jesus’ way. That is why they were persecuted, for they were inspired by his grace to convince unbelievers that God is one, and that he has revealed himself in his Son Jesus Christ, who is his Word issuing from the silence and who won the complete approval of him who sent him.

9 Those, then, who lived by ancient practices arrived at a new hope. They ceased to keep the Sabbath and lived by the Lord’s Day, on which our life as well as theirs shone forth, thanks to Him and his death, though some deny this. Through this mystery we got our faith, and because of it we stand our ground so as to become disciples of Jesus Christ, our sole teacher. How, then, can we live without him when even the prophets, who were his disciples by the Spirit, awaited him as their teacher? He, then, whom they were rightly expecting, raised them from the dead, when he came.

If you are quoting this guy and using his writings as your benchmark for Christian faith and practise, you have already taken the first bold steps into apostasy, whether or not you keep Sunday.

 

[Brakelite]

Can you cite Paul or John of Jesus telling us the details of a sabbath commandment?

KJV Exodus 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.