The 10 Commandments are FOREVER

[1stCenturyLady]

But you still think Sabbath observance is a "work" intended as an adjunct to Christ's sacrifice as you suggested by quoting
KJV Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.??

That is strong as iron. Not a straw man.

 

[BarneyFife]

The "letter" is something you can only do through knowledge of the rule, just like circumcision on the 8th day. It isn't a natural reaction from your conscience of right and wrong.

John Bunyan actually wrote a book about this when he was in prison. His work as a missionary to his fellow inmates convinced him of the same thing: That Sabbath-keeping was not a natural manifestation of the Spirit of God. He forgot two little other things: Civilization and cultural conditioning. I've been on mission trips. There are no "natural reactions from conscience of right and wrong." Total depravity, you know.

The further you go into the recesses of remote and detached human society, the less and less you see of these "natural reactions from conscience." When they do occur under these circumstances, it is usually the product of a bona fide miracle. I have literally met folks who were dressed like me and had no understanding of property rights and honesty, much less the baser crimes against God, like adultery and idolatry. Respect for parents is an alien concept in many third-world countries. I saw these things to some degree when I was growing up on Guam.

In short, no virtue is a manifestation of the Spirit of God without the cooperation of His Word (however indirect it may be).

What Bunyan didn't realize was that these souls to whom he was ministering came from slums of large cities where the right thing to do was only discernible by the standards set by their friends, family, and peers, what little religious training they had, and from the civil authorities (often by trial and error). They might have had some knowledge of weekly rest, but it was likely not experiential at all, and since the prisons at that time weren't too big on civil rights, the weekly cycle was probably little more than a faint memory or a blur to them.

Also, when newly-converted Christians are experiencing their first love for Christ, especially under these circumstances, they're more attuned to the two great commandments than anything else. So it's not at all surprising that they gave little or no thought to one of the more detailed commandments of the Decalogue (especially the one that God knew was most likely to be forgotten and, therefore, started with the word "Remember"). At first, Bunyan waited for one of them to bring up the Sabbath matter (probably because he knew it would be troublesome in a prison environment, anyway). It never happened. He thus reached his unfortunate conclusion.

Dear, dear 1CL, I hear you about not being able to wrap my head around all the things I read on this forum (and other places) about the Spiritual Sabbath.

Notice I am careful not to single out your posts or ascribe motive to you or anyone else, for that matter. I say this not to seek to be seen as extremely humble (for I truly am not), but I think it is important to state one's intentions plainly at times, in an effort to try to minimize misunderstandings. I trust our friendship can bear my honesty and frankness in this matter, and here it is in sort of a nutshell:

When people tell me that I am misguided about obedience and that I should re-evaluate and be enlightened and indwelt by the Spirit (assuming that I'm not at this point ), I hear the echoes of a scene from the Eden paradise and the counterfeit wisdom there offered:

"Hath God said you should not eat of every tree of the Garden?"
("Hath God said you should not work on every day of the week, and keep them all holy?")

"We may eat of every tree in the garden, except the tree in the midst of it."
("We may work on every day, except the seventh day--it is holy to the LORD.")

"He knows that in the day you eat thereof--disobey--you shall become as Gods, knowing good and evil."
("He knows that in the day you give up this literal Sabbath-keeping--disobey--and embrace the Spirit of the law, you shall truly be able to know good and evil.")

So, you see, I am of the mind that the devil switches up his tactics, but he's always after the same thing: to get people severed from their connection with God by luring them into disobedience (see note below).

Can you see how this would be an awfully hard sell for me?

(Note: I do not believe that people slip into and out of a "saved" state as often as they have a bite to eat. In fact, I don't believe in the "saved state" at all in the way it is commonly portrayed today. I'll probably be sorry I brought that up. )

 

[BarneyFife]

Someone else here doesn't.

Are you sure?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

When people tell me that I am misguided about obedience and that I should re-evaluate and be enlightened and indwelt by the Spirit (assuming that I'm not at this point ), I hear the echoes of a scene from the Eden paradise and the counterfeit wisdom there offered:

I certainly hope you didn't get that from me.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Are you sure?

Pretty sure.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I certainly hope you didn't get that from me.

@BarnyFife

When I've seen those type of posts on the forums against SDA, I always punch their lights out!

When dealing with SDA, I merely state the scriptures and my interpretation of them. I don't want anyone of them to go against their own conscience. They are usually civil, and don't use inferences like "straw men" especially when that straw man is the word of God. But then there are those SDA that aren't civil... They I end up putting on ignore, like most from another denomination I won't name.

 

[BarneyFife]

I certainly hope you didn't get that from me.

There are varying degrees of that kind of thing.

Pretty sure.

Naaaah

When I've seen those type of posts on the forums against SDA, I always punch their lights out!

Yeah, come to think of it, I do recollect you doing that more than once. You know, I lost track of you for a while, there, Kiddo (that's what I used to call my sister ).

They I end up putting on ignore, like most from another denomination I won't name.

lllooolll

 

[1stCenturyLady]

There are varying degrees of that kind of thing.

Hmmmm. I take that as a reprimand, even though I was accused of straw men... That is name calling, and beneath him. When that starts to happen, I hit the ignore button.

 

[BarneyFife]

No reprimand intended whatsoever. We Americans are way too sensitive, you know it?

 

[BarneyFife]

There are varying degrees of that kind of thing.

@1stCenturyLady
Wouldn't you agree? And a lot of it's unintentional.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And which verse, exactly, shows us that Ferris?

Because verse 13 of that very chapter shows it to be 100% true.
Isaiah 58:13

No, you're missing it. The prophet is pointing out requirements of a sabbath rest that are not part of the sabbath rest in the 10 Commandments. He's referring to the sabbath rest that counts. The one that matters far and above the literal command. Just as there is a circumcision far and above the command to be physically circumcised - the circumcision that counts, the one that matters.

Isaiah 1:13-17 also makes this point about the sabbath. It shows us that how we treat one another (which are not stipulations of the sabbath in the Ten Commandments) is what matters far and above the command for the literal observance itself.

13Bring your worthless offerings no more;
your incense is detestable to Me—
your New Moons, Sabbaths, and convocations.

I cannot endure iniquity
in a solemn assembly.14I hate your New Moons
and your appointed feasts.
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.

15When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide My eyes from you;
even though you multiply your prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are covered with blood.

16Wash and cleanse yourselves.
Remove your evil deeds from My sight.
Stop doing evil!17Learn to do right;
seek justice and correct the oppressor.c
Defend the fatherless
and plead the case of the widow.”​

See, if the literal sabbath command was greater, or even equal to 'love your neighbor as yourself' then God, speaking through the prophet would not tell them to not bring their sabbath observance before him as long as they had blood on their hands, but would tell them to add 'love your neighbor as yourself' to their sabbath observance.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Sabbath: the seventh day of the week observed from Friday evening to Saturday evening as a day of rest and worship by Jews

If you are Jewish then you should observe the sabbath.

I would expect nothing less from a Jew.

 

[GEN2REV]

I'm sure he did. His perfect obedience to the law is the foundation of the righteousness that is legally imputed to us. Besides, he had not accomplished his work on the cross yet that fulfills God's requirement for sabbath rest for us that there could be any suggestion possible that Jesus did not have to keep it.

And yet, funny enough, as soon as He finished that work, His disciples immediately continued to keep the Sabbath. As well as His later followers and all Christians for about 300 years thereafter.

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

@1stCenturyLady
Wouldn't you agree? And a lot of it's unintentional.

You are not being specific, so as to be clear.

 

[GEN2REV]

No, you're missing it. The prophet is pointing out requirements of a sabbath rest that are not part of the sabbath rest in the 10 Commandments. He's referring to the sabbath rest that counts. The one that matters far and above the literal command. Just as there is a circumcision far and above the command to be physically circumcised - the circumcision that counts, the one that matters.

Isaiah 1:13-17 also makes this point about the sabbath. It shows us that how we treat one another (which are not stipulations of the sabbath in the Ten Commandments) is what matters far and above the command for the literal observance itself.

13Bring your worthless offerings no more;
your incense is detestable to Me—
your New Moons, Sabbaths, and convocations.

I cannot endure iniquity
in a solemn assembly.14I hate your New Moons
and your appointed feasts.
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.

15When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide My eyes from you;
even though you multiply your prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are covered with blood.

16Wash and cleanse yourselves.
Remove your evil deeds from My sight.
Stop doing evil!17Learn to do right;
seek justice and correct the oppressor.c
Defend the fatherless
and plead the case of the widow.”​

See, if the literal sabbath command was greater, or even equal to 'love your neighbor as yourself' then God, speaking through the prophet would not tell them to not bring their sabbath observance before him as long as they had blood on their hands, but would tell them to add 'love your neighbor as yourself' to their sabbath observance.

Yeah, that's interesting. Look at how God is speaking of the specific 'Day' of the Sabbath here.

"... the Sabbath ... My Holy 'Day'; "
Isaiah 58:13

It's easy to see that there's no symbolism intended by God and that He is undoubtedly speaking of the 7th Day Saturday Sabbath because He mentions not to do your own ways or find your own pleasure or speak your own words on that day. No reference to a rest in Christ or anything like that.

Yes, God is amazing.

 

[GEN2REV]

Sabbath: the seventh day of the week observed from Friday evening to Saturday evening as a day of rest and worship by Jews

If you are Jewish then you should observe the sabbath.

How do you people still believe this nonsense when you don't believe the other 9 Commandments are only for the Jews?

"The 4th Commandment is only for the Jews, but the rest of the 10 Commandments we all obey in every denomination on earth!"

Where is the rationale for that?

The Commandments spoken aloud by God Himself to the people present at Sinai, which were written in stone, were ALL spoken by God to those present - and ALL written in the same stone.

Where is the reason and logic for the teaching that ONE of those does not belong anymore, but the rest we ALL keep 'til the very end?

 

[Marymog]

How do you people still believe this nonsense when you don't believe the other 9 Commandments are only for the Jews?

"The 4th Commandment is only for the Jews, but the rest of the 10 Commandments we all obey in every denomination on earth!"

Where is the rationale for that?

The Commandments spoken aloud by God Himself to the people present at Sinai, which were written in stone, were ALL spoken by God to those present - and ALL written in the same stone.

Where is the reason and logic for the teaching that ONE of those does not belong anymore, but the rest we ALL keep 'til the very end?

Hi,

The rationale that sabbath is a Jewish thing and not a Christian thing.


In Judaism the sabbath (Hebrew, “rest”) was a day of the week God set aside for the Jews to rest and worship. The weekly sabbath was one of three kinds of holy days on the Jewish calendar. The other two were the monthly new moons and the seven yearly festivals (Neh. 10:33, Lev. 23, Num. 29:6). Because of the Jewish way of reckoning time, according to which the new day began at sunset rather than midnight, the sabbath actually began at sundown on Friday and lasted until sundown on Saturday. Do you keep the sabbath from sundown on Friday until sundown on Saturday?

In Colossians 2:14-16, Paul mentions the sabbath by name, stating that Christ has “canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands . . . Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.” Festivals, new moons, and sabbaths were the three kinds of feast days of the Mosaic calendar (see Neh. 10:33, Lev. 23, Num. 29:6). Paul thus states that the whole Jewish festal calendar, sabbath days included, is not binding on Christians. Do you disagree with Paul on this point?

In 1 Corinthians 16:2, Paul tells his readers, “On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come.” Paul exhorts his readers to get their church’s contribution together ahead of time so it won’t have to be put together when he arrives (see 2 Cor. 9:3-5). I will practice what the NT Christians practiced. Will you?


Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

I would expect nothing less from a Jew.

You do realize your statement makes ZERO sense?

 

[GEN2REV]

I will practice what the NT Christians practiced. Will you?

The NT Christians practiced Sabbath observance from the very night of Christ's death until around 300 years after.

Are you ready to put your money where your mouth is?

 

[Marymog]

The NT Christians practiced Sabbath observance from the very night of Christ's death until around 300 years after.

Are you ready to put your money where your mouth is?

Yes, my money is ready......

FYI....Historically I know there was some debate in the early Church if they should continue the sabbath practice or keep the Lords day (Revelations 1:10) which was Sunday. Some stuck to their Jewish roots...others didn't. The authority of The Church brought everyone together to practice on the same day.

Here is the historical evidence from your Christian history on what your Christian forefathers wrote about this matter:

The Didache
“But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned” (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas
“We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead” (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch
“[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
“But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead” (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

The Didascalia
“The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven” (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]).

Origen
“Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection” (Commentary on John 2:28 [A.D. 229]).

Victorinus
“The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished” (The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).