The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Truth7t7]

Scripture has confirmed who the 144,000 is symbolic of = His Bride the Church


Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

I Disagree, the 144,000 will be the remnant church that will be saved and sealed, and will literally be in the wilderness of Carmel, Gilead, Bashan, surrounding Jerusalem during the tribulation, they will be fed Manna from heaven as shown

 

[PinSeeker]

Nope and nope.

Yep and yep.

I SAID the ark was CARRIED OR ROSE above the earth into the sky.

I'm well aware of what you said... as if by God or some other supernatural force... chuckles... And I SAID ~ and do, and always will say ~ that that's ridiculous, even according to Genesis 7 itself, which says (and I quote), "The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. 18 The waters prevailed and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the face of the waters."

You misrepresenting me is pretty sad friend.

And your accusing me of such is ridiculous. "Sad"... LOL!

I reported what the bible says.

No, you twisted the Bible's actual words ~ the Word of God ~ into something it's not, and you continue to do so. But hey, if you want to continue to dig that hole you're in deeper and deeper, go right ahead.

All of you made fools of yourselves

Says the one fooling himself. Wow.

It is so funny the FACT of the parallels to the pretrib rapture and the framing of the flood story by Jesus is against your beliefs

It's against reality, Rebuilder. Jesus does his own "framing" in Matthew 24:

"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."​

Jesus's reference to the flood and the days of Noah was, is, and always will be alluding to the suddenness of it's coming ~ and thus to the end and His second coming ~ and that up until that time many will be without a care in the world, just as many were in the days of Noah.

Yes, it's "against my beliefs," but it really has nothing to do with me. There is no "pretrib rapture." That's even a "double whammy" in and of itself; in addition to there being or coming no "rapture," but even "pretrib" is a total misnomer.

Both lot and noah are framed together in prejudgement dynamics

There are certainly allusions to the end and the final judgment in Jesus's comments about Lot and Noah and what happened in their days, yes. But "framed together in prejudgement dynamics" in the sense that you and others have fabricated in your minds, no, absolutely not, it's quite ridiculous.

But that takes apart your theory , so you stumble at the word of God.

Pfffft. LOL!

Mock the bible all you want.

No one is doing that. But now mocking you, on the other hand...

THE WORD OF GOD, has you completely twisted into a pretzel.

LOL! No, that would be you. LOL!

YOU now agree , but need 10 paragraphs of disclaimers how you previously ignorantly were untaught but can not admit you were wrong

LOL!!! Keep (futilely) trying to convince yourself, Rebuilder. I understand.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yep and yep.


I'm well aware of what you said... as if by God or some other supernatural force... chuckles... And I SAID ~ and do, and always will say ~ that that's ridiculous, even according to Genesis 7 itself, which says (and I quote), "The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. 18 The waters prevailed and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the face of the waters."


And your accusing me of such is ridiculous. "Sad"... LOL!


No, you twisted the Bible's actual words ~ the Word of God ~ into something it's not, and you continue to do so. But hey, if you want to continue to dig that hole you're in deeper and deeper, go right ahead.


Says the one fooling himself. Wow.


It's against reality, Rebuilder. Jesus does his own "framing" in Matthew 24:

"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."​

Jesus's reference to the flood and the days of Noah was, is, and always will be alluding to the suddenness of it's coming ~ and thus to the end and His second coming ~ and that up until that time many will be without a care in the world, just as many were in the days of Noah.

Yes, it's "against my beliefs," but it really has nothing to do with me. There is no "pretrib rapture." That's even a "double whammy" in and of itself; in addition to there being or coming no "rapture," but even "pretrib" is a total misnomer.


There are certainly allusions to the end and the final judgment in Jesus's comments about Lot and Noah and what happened in their days, yes. But "framed together in prejudgement dynamics" in the sense that you and others have fabricated in your minds, no, absolutely not, it's quite ridiculous.


Pfffft. LOL!


No one is doing that. But now mocking you, on the other hand...


LOL! No, that would be you. LOL!


LOL!!! Keep (futilely) trying to convince yourself, Rebuilder. I understand.

Grace and peace to you.

pure baloney. batting the air over Noah leaving the earth.
Just cut it out of your bible and be done with it.
Grace and peace be to you

 

[rebuilder 454]

I don't believe I'm missing biblical typology at all. The ark and those kept safe in it were the exceptions of the utter destruction of all that remained on the earth and perished by the water. The flood came and took all who remained outside the ark away. Not because the ark was lifted up from the earth, but because all who were left were not ordained to live but were destined to destruction.

Matthew 24:38-39 (KJV) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It's the water that is the figure/representative of our salvation through baptism that saves us. Not that we are saved by being water baptized but saved by the cross and resurrection of Christ through His baptism of the Holy Spirit. That's why this passage says those in the ark were saved BY water.

1 Peter 3:20-21 (KJV) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 3:22 (KJV) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Matthew 3:11 (KJV) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

See also Mk 1:8 & Lu 3:16

It is because in this life/time/age we have been baptized by the Holy Spirit when we believed that when Christ comes again, we shall be caught up with the Lord in the air, and all who remain on the earth shall be consumed by the fire of God's wrath. And life/time/age given this earth shall be no longer.

That is a hard, hard lesson.
The ole ark above the earth thingy. Amazing what truth does to some non pretribbers

grace and peace be unto you

 

[rebuilder 454]

No and no.


You and your "colleagues" are the ones who created that false (and ridiculous) narrative.


Riiiiiiight, you "showed me," alright. LOL! No "dodging" necessary... LOL! You're the one in green here, Rebuilder:

Nobody I know has ever said or insinuated in any way that Noah did not leave the ground. But he did so by very natural means ~ on the surface of the water, in a boat.

"The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. The waters prevailed and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the face of the waters" (Genesis 7:17-18)

Yes, no one here was ever "convinced otherwise" or has ever denied in any way that Noah "went above the earth." So your ranting and raving, is empty (and kind of humorous, in a dark sort of way). And, hey, Noah "came down" the same, very natural way:

"God made a wind blow over the earth, and the waters subsided. The fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained, and the waters receded from the earth continually. At the end of 150 days the waters had abated, and in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat" (Genesis 8:1-4).


Most of us are well aware of the twisting of Genesis to fit the false dispensational narrative.


Genesis said he was in the ark and floated on the water high above the ground, yes.


So you want to think. No matter. Just an empty assertion.


Ah, yes, reporting... LOL! Well, in the sense that you are twisting it into something other than what it is, yes. When that is done, yes, it's... disconcerting.

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder. Especially grace, for obvious reasons.

Most of us are well aware of the twisting of Genesis to fit the false dispensational narrative.

That Noah went into the ark prejudgent, left the earth during the judgement, and returned to the earth post judgment, a fact that is forever canonized in the WORD OF GOD ,is such a bitter pill FOR YOU.

just amazing the verses you need to dilute and wipe out... for what???
your resentment of the truth.
Amazing

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder. Especially grace, for obvious reasons.
amen to that.

 

[rwb]

I disagree with your claim of dual fulfillment

The temple being destroyed was the Lord's symbolic body dying on Calvary

The rest of the Olivet discourse is future unfulfilled

Yes, this is a common tactic of some when attempting to understand the prophetic words of Christ from the Mt of Olives. It's symbolic when that fits your doctrinal point of view, but when it doesn't it must be interpreted literally! Which is why I disagree with your claim! You want it both spiritual when literal doesn't fit, and literal when spiritual won't cut it. That's known as reading one's doctrine into the text!

 

[rwb]

I Disagree, the 144,000 will be the remnant church that will be saved and sealed, and will literally be in the wilderness of Carmel, Gilead, Bashan, surrounding Jerusalem during the tribulation, they will be fed Manna from heaven as shown

Or the remnant according to election of grace symbolically (144,000) showing faithful saints who died believing in Messiah to come. They are included in the innumerable multitude that come from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue. These are seen again, after being sealed by the Spirit, in Rev 14 as the firstfruits of the Spirit, having ascended spiritually alive to heaven as living souls.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No and no.


You and your "colleagues" are the ones who created that false (and ridiculous) narrative.


Riiiiiiight, you "showed me," alright. LOL! No "dodging" necessary... LOL! You're the one in green here, Rebuilder:

Nobody I know has ever said or insinuated in any way that Noah did not leave the ground. But he did so by very natural means ~ on the surface of the water, in a boat.

"The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. The waters prevailed and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the face of the waters" (Genesis 7:17-18)

Yes, no one here was ever "convinced otherwise" or has ever denied in any way that Noah "went above the earth." So your ranting and raving, is empty (and kind of humorous, in a dark sort of way). And, hey, Noah "came down" the same, very natural way:

"God made a wind blow over the earth, and the waters subsided. The fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained, and the waters receded from the earth continually. At the end of 150 days the waters had abated, and in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat" (Genesis 8:1-4).


Most of us are well aware of the twisting of Genesis to fit the false dispensational narrative.


Genesis said he was in the ark and floated on the water high above the ground, yes.


So you want to think. No matter. Just an empty assertion.


Ah, yes, reporting... LOL! Well, in the sense that you are twisting it into something other than what it is, yes. When that is done, yes, it's... disconcerting.

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder. Especially grace, for obvious reasons.

Genesis says he left the earth.

Genesis said he was in the ark and floated on the water high above the ground, yes.

 

[David in NJ]

I Disagree, the 144,000 will be the remnant church that will be saved and sealed, and will literally be in the wilderness of Carmel, Gilead, Bashan, surrounding Jerusalem during the tribulation, they will be fed Manna from heaven as shown

Well you are disagreeing with the clear Truth of the scriptures stated in Post #1,978

 

[Timtofly]

All of the deceased elect of God will return with Jesus ~ Jesus will bring them with Him ~ when He returns, yes. Christ does not literally return on a white horse, nor do the armies of heaven who follow Him in His return.

You are mixing up totally seperate events. But that seems to be your constant point of changing everything thing I post.

Those on the sea of glass never physically die. They are not the dead. Those leaving Egypt did not physically die in the process and then come back to physical life once they entered the promised land.

Do you not accept the fact that Paul claims those alive and remain will be caught up in the air? Is that synonymous of physically dying? How do you describe being alive and remain, but not physically dead?

Those on the sea of glass are still alive on the earth after the Second Coming. A point your theological eschatology denies, but cannot prove that every one is dead when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives. You have symbolized away all these things into thin air. They are chosen while Jesus and the angels are physically and literally on the earth. They are never physically dead, and given a funeral service. But they are changed and caught up to the sea of glass, that you now acknowledge is in heaven and not on the earth. So when Scripture claims they flee to the wilderness, then that is symbolic of leaving the earth, and then returning on white horses 42 months later.

When John first views the sea of glass he never mentions people. They are still alive on the earth. The sea of glass is not Paradise. Paradise has had people since the thief went to Paradise the day he died. All the OT redeemed went to Paradise on Sunday morning, when Jesus ascended to heaven. Paradise and the sea of glass are not places the dead inhabit. They are places the living inhabit in God's permanent incorruptible physical body.


The sea of glass has this group of living people waiting for the 42 months to end, so they can return and take back their homes at Armageddon. Revelation 15 takes place during the 42 months given to Satan on the earth. They are waiting just like Jesus and the 144k on heavenly Mount Zion, in Revelation 14.

Those in Paradise as symbolized by souls under the alter are also still waiting. Vengeance will not be complete until Armageddon. Now we have the firstfruits of the final harvest also waiting on Mount Zion and the sea of glass.


Billions do not return at Armageddon. Armageddon is just when the last of Adam's dead corruptible flesh is destroyed. The church comes down after the Day of the Lord in the New Jerusalem. The Day of the Lord is the Millennial Kingdom on earth. Armageddon is just the hour of vengeance that the entire creation has been waiting for.

You take Scripture and blend it all together as if the Law was given a week ago, and the Cross was last Thursday.

 

[PinSeeker]

pure baloney.

To you, yes, I get that. You're not alone; looooooooooooooooots of people have blinders on.

batting the air over Noah leaving the earth.

I have never done any such thing. Certainly, Noah was far above the earth, in the sense that he was in a boat which was floating upon the waters of the flood. But certainly, I have rejected and refuted supernatural "interpretation" and any "pretrib rapture" implication of the event itself and the supposed framing of it in that sense by Jesus. Jesus Himself is very clear on that, as I said above.

Just cut it out of your bible...

Don't have to... it's not there.

That Noah went into the ark prejudgent, left the earth during the judgement, and returned to the earth post judgment...

You know, Rebuilder...

I agree with what you say here, but not in the... far, far overdone, over-cooked, off-the-deep-end sense in which dispensationalists think it to be... and that's been the case all through this exchange. Noah was protected and sustained even in the midst of and through the judgment issued by God on the sinful men of his day. Noah himself was not judged; he had already been a deemed by God "a righteous man, blameless in his generation," and Noah "walked with God" (Genesis 6:9). And this is true for you and me, today, and everyday, thanks be to God.

, a fact that is forever canonized in the WORD OF GOD ,is such a bitter pill FOR YOU.

just amazing the verses you need to dilute and wipe out... for what???
your resentment of the truth.
Amazing

LOL! Think what you want; I care not. I actually like what you say about "diluting," but what needs diluting is the ~ as I said ~ off-the-deep-end view of Scripture propagated by dispensationalists like you. There's no "resentment" (that's ridiculous), but it does make me quite incredulous, this wandering off into myths (as Paul puts it) by dispensationalists.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

You are mixing up totally seperate events.

So you think; I have always understood your thoughts on that. That was one of the main points back at the beginning of this exchange, and not just with you but several others; the events described in Revelation 20 are not wholly subsequent to the events described in Revelation 19:11-21, but concurrent... separate visions of the same things. Yes, we've always disagreed on that, but one way or another that will someday no longer be the case. It will be what it will be.

But that seems to be your constant point of changing everything thing I post.

I don't change your posts, but just hope to persuade you to change the way you're "thinking." But that's not really up to me. Or you.

Those on the sea of glass never physically die. They are not the dead. Those leaving Egypt did not physically die in the process and then come back to physical life once they entered the promised land.

Do you not accept the fact that Paul claims those alive and remain will be caught up in the air? Is that synonymous of physically dying? How do you describe being alive and remain, but not physically dead?

Those on the sea of glass are still alive on the earth after the Second Coming. A point your theological eschatology denies, but cannot prove that every one is dead when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives. You have symbolized away all these things into thin air. They are chosen while Jesus and the angels are physically and literally on the earth. They are never physically dead, and given a funeral service. But they are changed and caught up to the sea of glass, that you now acknowledge is in heaven and not on the earth. So when Scripture claims they flee to the wilderness, then that is symbolic of leaving the earth, and then returning on white horses 42 months later.

When John first views the sea of glass he never mentions people. They are still alive on the earth. The sea of glass is not Paradise. Paradise has had people since the thief went to Paradise the day he died. All the OT redeemed went to Paradise on Sunday morning, when Jesus ascended to heaven. Paradise and the sea of glass are not places the dead inhabit. They are places the living inhabit in God's permanent incorruptible physical body.


The sea of glass has this group of living people waiting for the 42 months to end, so they can return and take back their homes at Armageddon. Revelation 15 takes place during the 42 months given to Satan on the earth. They are waiting just like Jesus and the 144k on heavenly Mount Zion, in Revelation 14.

Those in Paradise as symbolized by souls under the alter are also still waiting. Vengeance will not be complete until Armageddon. Now we have the firstfruits of the final harvest also waiting on Mount Zion and the sea of glass.


Billions do not return at Armageddon. Armageddon is just when the last of Adam's dead corruptible flesh is destroyed. The church comes down after the Day of the Lord in the New Jerusalem. The Day of the Lord is the Millennial Kingdom on earth. Armageddon is just the hour of vengeance that the entire creation has been waiting for.

You take Scripture and blend it all together as if the Law was given a week ago, and the Cross was last Thursday.

Hmmmmm... I mean, there are... some things in here that have at least some element of validity to them, but many others not so much... and I'm just going to leave it at that. One thing though: what you say in that last sentence ("as if the Law was given a week ago, and the Cross was last Thursday") is actually, in a sense ~ in the eternal sense ~ true.

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

 

[Timtofly]

I agree with what you say here, but not in the... far, far overdone, off-the-deep-end sense in which dispensationalists think it to be. Noah was protected and sustained even in the midst of and through the judgment issued by God on the sinful men of his day.

So how far in your carnal estimation above the earth is considered no longer on the earth?

According to modern scientists, Noah was too high and would have needed a breathing apparatus to survive.

"The waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth."

Do you think heaven is spiritually 14 billion light years away? Do you think God took care of those on the ark while in heaven? Or was it just a stage prop, where the ark only moved about 100 feet into the air for the full effect of people dying around him?

Heaven is closer than we have been led to believe. If the ark was in heaven, it had left the earth, unless you think it was two places at the same time.

 

[PinSeeker]

So how far in your carnal estimation above the earth is considered no longer on the earth?

According to modern scientists, Noah was too high and would have needed a breathing apparatus to survive.

LOL! You and I can't go a mile above sea level and survive? We can... I mean, I've never been to a Denver Broncos football game, but there's a reason why their stadium is called Mile High Stadium... And we could climb Mt. Everest, which is about five miles high, and survive; several folks have done it, the first... ascension ... taking place on May 29, 1953...

Do you think heaven is spiritually 14 billion light years away? Do you think God took care of those on the ark while in heaven? Or was it just a stage prop, where the ark only moved about 100 feet into the air for the full effect of people dying around him?

Heaven is closer than we have been led to believe.

Well, we are, after all, surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, as the writer of Hebrews puts it (Hebrews 12:1)... And we are being built together into a holy temple in the Lord, into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit... as Paul says at the end of Ephesians 2... It is very "near," although I think you and I obviously understand that in different contexts, although... not completely different, actually.

If the ark was in heaven...

Yeah never was. Never left creation. In the words of Moses in Genesis 7, "(t)he waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. The waters..." ~ the waters of the flood came upon the earth, as Genesis 7:10 says, by way of rain (Genesis 7:4, 7:12) ~ "...prevailed and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floating on the face of the waters high above the earth" (Genesis 7:17-18). It never "left creation." Water, sky, and all that stuff? Yeah, God created it all, and in the case of Noah's flood, made it happen. All very natural; it still rains and floods from time to time even to this day.

...unless you think it was two places at the same time.

LOL! No... LOL!

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I disagree with your claim of dual fulfillment

Good.

The temple being destroyed was the Lord's symbolic body dying on Calvary

The rest of the Olivet discourse is future unfulfilled

Matthew 24:1-2 is talking about the fall (desolate) of the Old Testament congregation which the Lord's body represented. The rest of the Olivet Discourse refers to the fall of the New Testament congregation, the church, prior to the Second Coming, in a spiritual sense.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Jesus explained the destruction of the temple as being his body, at the death of Jesus Christ the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom in the holy of holies, the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, gone, no longer in existence or needed in the spiritual

Jesus Christ ,his shed blood upon calvary, the resurrection, and ascension to the right hand of the father, has replaced the temple that was in Jerusalem, that was destroyed in the spiritual before 70AD just as he told the pharisees

Revelation 21:22KJV
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

John 14:18-21KJV
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Per Malachi 3:1b, The Lord and [mal'ak], the same Son of God as pictured in Daniel, the same Messenger there whom Malachi says the Jews sought, was their Messiah. And He suddenly came to His temple when He came to earth in the body of a man. And as the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 shows, they esteemed Him not.

John 2:19-21

• "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
• Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
• But he spake of the temple of his body."

This is the Temple He suddenly came to. And as Malachi illustrates, He is the delight (hope; wish) of Israel, the Messenger of the Covenant, Jesus Christ. He is the [mal'ak], the internunciator or messenger between the two parties of God and man, the fulfillment of the Covenant/Promise of God to Israel for a mediator Savior. And indeed, in the New Testament after the Cross, we also come to our Holy Temple in the body of Christ as living stones immune to fire and built up a house of God.

 

[David in NJ]

Good.



Matthew 24:1-2 is talking about the fall (desolate) of the Old Testament congregation which the Lord's body represented. The rest of the Olivet Discourse refers to the fall of the New Testament congregation, the church, prior to the Second Coming, in a spiritual sense.

Correct, the NT Church has made some of the same mistakes as Israel did.

And it started even when the Apostles were on earth = Acts ch20

And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

 

[Truthnightmare]

TN, Paul speaks of the natural and spiritual natures. It really has nothing to do with physicality or lack thereof. The natural state of man is his/her deadness in sin, even in his/her... physicality... his/her physical body. The spiritual state of man is dependent upon the Holy Spirit "quickening it," or making it alive ~ making us alive by and in the Holy Spirit, which, for us born again Christians is a very present reality, even now, in our physical bodies. As Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-10...

"God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."​

In that way, we are new creations in spirit and spiritually alive, as Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:17...

"...if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."​

And when Jesus comes back, we ~ our spirits ~ will get our physical bodies back, but made new, as God says in Revelation 21:5. He says not "Behold, I am making all new things," but rather "Behold, I am making all things new."

Grace and peace to you.

Do you believe Moses and Elijah are in flesh bodies right now?

 

[Timtofly]

LOL! You and I can't go a mile above sea level and survive? We can... I mean, I've never been to a Denver Broncos football game, but there's a reason why their stadium is called Mile High Stadium... And we could climb Mt. Everest, which is about five miles high, and survive; several folks have done it, the first... ascension ... taking place on May 29, 1953...


Yeah never was. Never left creation. In the words of Moses in Genesis 7, "(t)he waters increased and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. The waters..." ~ the waters of the flood came upon the earth, as Genesis 7:10 says, by way of rain (Genesis 7:4, 7:12) ~ "...prevailed and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floating on the face of the waters high above the earth" (Genesis 7:17-18). It never "left creation." Water, sky, and all that stuff? Yeah, God created it all, and in the case of Noah's flood, made it happen. All very natural; it still rains and floods from time to time even to this day.


LOL! No... LOL!

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

Heaven is part of creation. That water that came down to flood the earth was even above heaven. So obviously the water went through heaven and the ark went above earth into heaven.

People take oxygen with them to climb Mount Everest.

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so."

Moses wrote there was water above heaven. Since you seem to have no thought on where heaven starts and the height of Noah's Ark, I will take God's Word over your opinion or lack thereof.

"The same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

So the water that was above Heaven came down to fill the earth. Earth and Heaven form the same creation.

According to you going to the moon is not leaving earth either. The moon is in the firmament and the water that came down, was above the firmament, and above the sun and moon. If heaven is not where the sun and moon are, then the sun and moon are part of the earth and not heaven. Anything outside of this firmament and the earth is outside of creation, and in eternity. Do we know that all the water came down or is there still water up there?

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so."

I have driven through Denver.

 

[rebuilder 454]

To you, yes, I get that. You're not alone; looooooooooooooooots of people have blinders on.


I have never done any such thing. Certainly, Noah was far above the earth, in the sense that he was in a boat which was floating upon the waters of the flood. But certainly, I have rejected and refuted supernatural "interpretation" and any "pretrib rapture" implication of the event itself and the supposed framing of it in that sense by Jesus. Jesus Himself is very clear on that, as I said above.


Don't have to... it's not there.


You know, Rebuilder...

I agree with what you say here, but not in the... far, far overdone, over-cooked, off-the-deep-end sense in which dispensationalists think it to be... and that's been the case all through this exchange. Noah was protected and sustained even in the midst of and through the judgment issued by God on the sinful men of his day. Noah himself was not judged; he had already been a deemed by God "a righteous man, blameless in his generation," and Noah "walked with God" (Genesis 6:9). And this is true for you and me, today, and everyday, thanks be to God.


LOL! Think what you want; I care not. I actually like what you say about "diluting," but what needs diluting is the ~ as I said ~ off-the-deep-end view of Scripture propagated by dispensationalists like you. There's no "resentment" (that's ridiculous), but it does make me quite incredulous, this wandering off into myths (as Paul puts it) by dispensationalists.

Grace and peace to you.

Jesus made many analogies.
All of them were judged and butchered by naysayers and even the saints of today.
There is no such thing as a perfect analogy. But i did come close in the strict point by point of the flood and the rapture.
If you stick closely to what i said, not what you ADDED , it is a perfect analogy.

Ark..a type of heaven
Noah enters prejudgement
Noah carried above the earth
noah high above the earth DURING THE JUDGEMENT
noah returns post judgement.

Vivid pattern of the pretrib rapture Gathering

Noah was protected and sustained even in the midst of and through the judgment issued by God on the sinful men of his day. Noah himself was not judged; he had already been a deemed by God "a righteous man, blameless in his generation," and Noah "walked with God" (Genesis 6:9). And this is true for you and me, today, and everyday, thanks be to God.

yes as we are, and as Jesus declared and framed the flood story PREJUDGEMENT...WITH Noah ABOVE THE EARTH during the trib.
But it gets worse for you Guys because Jesus also used Lot who was also relocated PREJUDGEMENT.